My GH campaign is nearing a massive war. I want to do the following:
Several of my players also play strategy games. I want to use a modified strategy/board game to "play out" a war in Greyhawk, at about regimental or battalion level.
I want to play out the battles in this game over the Internet, between gaming sessions.
I would use the 30 mile hex maps from the original GH set to resolve this war, keeping track of all unit locations at my house, with me feeding the players intelligence via e-mail and allowing them to deploy their troops, make their moves the same way, thus creating a nice fog of war.
I'm quite willing to modify an existing medieval combat wargame system to fit my needs...but my question is--what game system would you guys recommend? I vaguely remember playing a medieval tabletop wargame with hexes and counters back in the early 80's, but for the life of me I can't remember the name of it.
I don't want to get into tactical nitty gritty too much. I'm thinking one turn = 1 day....something like that. Any ideas or feedback?
Look into the 3e updated version of Birthright, or even the old 2e if you can find a pdf of it. That is what I use, though when I do i make full use of the stuff including the kingdom building stuff.
Also I believe there is another 3.5e book out, called Field of Battle or something like that which is wargame book for D&D.
My GH campaign is nearing a massive war. I want to do the following:
Several of my players also play strategy games. I want to use a modified strategy/board game to "play out" a war in Greyhawk, at about regimental or battalion level.
I want to play out the battles in this game over the Internet, between gaming sessions.
I would use the 30 mile hex maps from the original GH set to resolve this war, keeping track of all unit locations at my house, with me feeding the players intelligence via e-mail and allowing them to deploy their troops, make their moves the same way, thus creating a nice fog of war.
I'm quite willing to modify an existing medieval combat wargame system to fit my needs...but my question is--what game system would you guys recommend? I vaguely remember playing a medieval tabletop wargame with hexes and counters back in the early 80's, but for the life of me I can't remember the name of it.
I don't want to get into tactical nitty gritty too much. I'm thinking one turn = 1 day....something like that. Any ideas or feedback?
F2K,
Don't forget the "Greyhawk Wars" boxed set that came out a while back. It was 2e, I know, but if you want something semi-official, that wouldn't be a bad place to start. At least it would be tailored to the Flanaess!
Stefan, I don't know if this would interest you, but if you and your players would like to settle things over a nice, hostile game of risk, check out this link.
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkrisk/GCR-index.htm
We haven't done it since 3.X came out, but in previous editions we used to use a boxed set called BattleSystem. It was so much fun we sometimes just created armies and slogged it out when we needed a break from the weekly xp grind. Hope it helps you F2K.
Be safe all.
F2K,
Don't forget the "Greyhawk Wars" boxed set that came out a while back. It was 2e, I know, but if you want something semi-official, that wouldn't be a bad place to start. At least it would be tailored to the Flanaess!
IIRC, Greyhawk Wars was specifically tailored to the "official" war situation after the events in "Howl from the North" and "Five shall be One" - the outcome is documented in From the Ashes. Greyhawk Wars had a map using single countries as tactical units, not hexes. I think this is too specific for F2Ks needs ?
Stefan
Stefan, I don't know if this would interest you, but if you and your players would like to settle things over a nice, hostile game of risk, check out this link.
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkrisk/GCR-index.htm
That looks very interesting!
Thanks for that link (even if I am not the Stefan you originally meant :-))Stefan
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Malhavoc Press released Cry Havoc for 3rd Ed, written by the master of all things that are made of steel and make the enemy scream then bleed, Mike Mearls (I like his work ;P}, which covers mass combat realy well and is worth the PDF asking price. Haven't had a chance to read Heroes of Battle or the Miniature's Handbook yet, but from a glance they'd cover the same sort of mess.
F2K,
Don't forget the "Greyhawk Wars" boxed set that came out a while back. It was 2e, I know, but if you want something semi-official, that wouldn't be a bad place to start. At least it would be tailored to the Flanaess!
IIRC, Greyhawk Wars was specifically tailored to the "official" war situation after the events in "Howl from the North" and "Five shall be One" - the outcome is documented in From the Ashes. Greyhawk Wars had a map using single countries as tactical units, not hexes. I think this is too specific for F2Ks needs ?
Stefan
Your recollection is correct. Still, I'm saying that it would need significantly less "retrofitting" than a non-Greyhawk war system would.
Your recollection is correct. Still, I'm saying that it would need significantly less "retrofitting" than a non-Greyhawk war system would.F2K,
Don't forget the "Greyhawk Wars" boxed set that came out a while back. It was 2e, I know, but if you want something semi-official, that wouldn't be a bad place to start. At least it would be tailored to the Flanaess!
IIRC, Greyhawk Wars was specifically tailored to the "official" war situation after the events in "Howl from the North" and "Five shall be One" - the outcome is documented in From the Ashes. Greyhawk Wars had a map using single countries as tactical units, not hexes. I think this is too specific for F2Ks needs ?
Stefan
Sorry, got you wrong there. It surely can be mined for ideas and overall troop strenghts without making it all up from scratch. On troop strenghts, the sourcebooks from Carl Sargent are an invaluable source, and some of the "Team Greyhawk" sourcebooks have some info, too, IIRC (I haven´t read them as often as the other ones...) Of course, that´s ony useful if your Greyhawk does not differ significantly from "Canon".
Stefan
Thanks for all the advice. I have Battlesystem and it's too specific, and Greyhawk Risk (while awesome) is too broad. (I know, I know--is there no pleasing this guy? LOL)
Heroes of Battle is okay, but it covers the PCs actions during a battle and gives DMs guidance on how to run battles during regular games and it's not what I need either. I have HoB.
I'll probably have to design this myself, but I'm looking for something like a 1 counter = 500 troops kinda thing where the players move these battalions around the old hex based GH map and battle is resolved similar to a wargame, with fortification, terrain, leaders, current strength etc. being modifiers to an abstract "combat roll" and then consulting a chart to determine results.
I want to run this next to the RPG campaign so the players have something to do between games and so that they can't say that I made their beloved Hestmark Republic "lose" the war just as a plot development thing--if they lost it, the players at least had a hand in it.
I found a game called "Ancients" on the 'net that sounds interesting. I just want to steal the game engine, but if I have to design something myself, I will.
I will definitely check out the GH wars set, as I never did get that during 2e--I was all into FR back then and GH was on the back burner during the 90's.
Hi F2K,
I always liked the game mechanic used by Avalon Hill's Dragon Pass / White Bear Red Moon.
Game play goes something like this (lifted from wikipedia.org)
An unlimited number of units can be grouped together in the same hex to form a stack. Depending on the components of the stack and how it is ordered, most stacks exert a zone of control into the surrounding hexes. Units must cease movement upon entering an enemy zone of control, and a unit can not move directly from one enemy zone of control to another. Stacks that are currently disembodied do not exert a zone of control.
Each active player's turn consists of the following phases:
1) Move those units that are subject to random movement.
2) Attempt to gain allies.
3) Move any friendly units, and add replacements and reinforcements.
4) Use any exotic abilities (such as magic).
5) Resolve combat.
6) Rally units that are disrupted.
Resolution of combat can include various types of magic, the use of missile fire, and finally melee combat. The combat results are in the form of Combat Factor losses, which is one of the ratings on the counters.
As is typical of many wargames, every friendly unit that is adjacent to an opposing unit must attack an adjacent opposing unit. Also each opposing unit adjacent to a friendly unit must be attacked. The exception to this is a unit inside a fortification, which is not forced to attack.
This game includes a considerable amount of chrome, simulating the variety of heroes, creatures, and magic that were involved in the battles. This can be an appealing factor to those who enjoy games with a fantasy atmosphere. Heroes and superheroes can have a powerful impact on the outcome of the various battles. The extra details can add complexity to what would otherwise be a relatively simple board wargame.
There's a copy on ebay.com at the moment:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Dragon-Pass-AH-Edition-Complete-Unpunched_W0QQitemZ1700 23226411QQihZ007QQcategoryZ2531QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
MnM
F2K, this is going to go back several years to 2nd edition. Dungeon published an adventure that took place in the Underdark in which several armies fought it out. The designer had some rules for determinining the outcome that were fairly simple for such a tangled mess. I can't recall the name of the adventure. If someone remembers, please chime in.
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F2K, this is going to go back several years to 2nd edition. Dungeon published an adventure that took place in the Underdark in which several armies fought it out. The designer had some rules for determinining the outcome that were fairly simple for such a tangled mess. I can't recall the name of the adventure. If someone remembers, please chime in.
It was that Kingdom of the Ghouls by Wolfgang Bauer. I think that's the title. I think in Dungeon #70. I found it at Half Price books 2 months ago.
I'm going to go the other way-- take a wargame you enjoy, and just change the descriptions/color to match. So if you like Axis and Allies, use that core system on your map, manuvering Cavalry (as Armor), Footsoldiers (as Infantry), Sorcerous Brigages (as Artillery...)
Obviously, this can all shift depending on the system you enjoy-- I picked a deliberately simple one. Really, if you start with rules you know, you'll probably find it easier to come up with a unit conversion than a resolution system from scratch. (I'd be tempted to use Columbia Game's blocks for hidden movement and the like...)
2 games from ca. early 80s I vaguely remember, which might be hard to find these days but with e-bay you never know:
1. A medieval wargame called Warlord (IIRC) set in a Holy Roman Empire type setting involving conflict between nobles. IIRC it was a hex based mid-level strategic game with resource management rules as well (for building castles and paying mercenaries, etc.)
2. Divine Right--a hex based high-level fantasy strategic game that had provisions for magical events and unusual units in supplemental rules published in the Dragon. (It was a TSR product).
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I wrote a longish piece that the boards seem to have eaten, so I'll try to recapitulate:
Ancient and Medieval Tactical Board Games:
SPI's PRESTAGS (Pre-Seventeenth Century Tactical Game System, Chariot, Spartan, Legion, Viking, and Yeoman) - I suspect these may be the games you were thinking of. Pretty good when they were published, quite difficult to find now.
GMT's Great Battles of History series (various titles) - Very interesting system, though the series is mostly centered around the classical era rather than the medieval period. The series is still in production.
SPI's Ancient Art of the Siege - Actually four different games with entirely different rules. Some of these are at least interesting, but the game is again difficult to find.
Fantasy Boardgames:
Chaosium's White Bear Red Moon and Nomad Gods - Set in the world of Glorantha (Rune Quest), they're pretty good. The former was redesigned and republished as Dragon Pass by Avalon Hill.
SPI's Swords and Sorcery - Probably more complex than it is worth, as well as being campy, but I like it anyway. (What's not to like about crossing the Stream of Consciousness to get to the Natalie Woods and escape the Giant Killer Penguins?)
Ancient and Medieval Miniatures Rules:
Chipco's Days of Knights - Pretty simple system (perhaps too simple), but not bad for what it is. Uses a very similar system to that of Fantasy Rules (mentioned below).
WRG's De Bellis Multitudinis - Top tournament ancients/medievals rules. It's far easier to understand if you are taught by someone who already knows how to play. (The writing style is particularly opaque.) Very good and pretty easy to find.
Arty Conliffe's Armati - Not as good a game as DBM (IMO), but perhaps a better simulation of history in many ways. Once the battle starts, the player really doesn't have much control over the course of the battle.
CWG's Flower of Chivalry - Very slight rules, but consequently pretty easy and fast to play.
Fantasy Miniatures Rules:
Chipco's Fantasy Rules - I think this is the best of the lot by some distance. Well written and reasonably easy to understand. The magic system makes sense and still allows the tactics to be interesting.
This is by no means comprehensive, of course, but I hope it helps.
This is great stuff, ya'll (hey, I'm from Texas!). I'm going to hit a FLGS (COAS My Bookstore) in Las Cruces, NM (about 40 miles north of here) that stocks a lot of old wargames and see if I can't find some of the games you have mentioned up there. They're usually used and the owner is pretty cool about letting me look at things for a few minutes before deciding on a purchase.
Hey, anyone remember "King of the Tabletop" from Dragon magazine, ca' 1983ish? That game was cool!!