Greetings all. I was wondering if someone could clarify something about the Reincarnate spell for me. When you come back as a race that normally has racial hit dice and/or a level adjustment what happens? Do LA and racial hit dice affect your newly reincarnated character in any way? I've looked around through the PHB and haven't found an answer that is clear to me. Thanks for any help in advance. ^_^
I believe this is a DM's call, really. The Reincarnate description says that the DM constructs a table if the creature is anything other than a humanoid. If there's nothing in the Core Rulebooks and in Savage Species that specifies anything clearly, then I'd fall back on that.
Yes, I try to apply the spell as literally as I can. As in, since it doesn't mention LA or hit dice I just don't apply them. The only part that bugs me is where it says, "The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form." But thinking about it I suppose that HD and LA wouldn't really fall under anything from the quote.
I asked about this because I'm running a game set in Dark Sun and a PC died a couple of sessions ago and was reincarnated. He was a human when he died and he lucked out on the roll and was returned to life as a Half-Giant. The shift required a lot of changes to his character and I was just trying to figure out how do deal with HD and LA as Half-Giants normally have that.
What if a non-human gets reincarnated as a human? Do they gain the bonus feat? This actually happened to a gnome in my campaign once, and we ruled that it was a learned, cultural thing that simply assuming the physical form of a human wouldn't grant. However, a dwarf's dodge bonus against giants is also cultural, so would a reincarnated PC gain that ability? I would think yes, which also points that they would gain the human bonus feat. If no, then it would imply that cultural learning might survive the reincarnation, which would mean that a dwarf reincarnated as a human would keep his bonus against giants, which doesn't seem right, either. Thoughts?
Hrm... well, one thing to consider is that you don't, "automatically speak the language of the new form." I would definitely consider that a "cultural thing."
What would help in determining what you get and don't get would be, of the traits that the various races get, what is and isn't an Extraordinary Ability. For instance, going back to my original question, are Racial Hit Dice considered an Extraordinary Ability? You mentioned Dwarves and their dodge bonus vs. Giants. A cursory glance doesn't say that it's Extraordinary but one thing Dwarves get that is an Extraordinary Ability is Darkvision, and that's definitely not cultural, it’s because they are dwarves. So Reincarnate would give you that much.
The whole, "The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form," line from Reincarnate seems to imply that you only get abilities that are intrinsically part of your new form. i.e. Physical things like: claws, long or short legs for movement, better eyesight in the from of Darkvision or Low-light vision, and the like. The dwarf's dodge bonus would have been something he learned growing up, not for being born, just like learning the Dwarvern language. Hit Dice are something that you gain by aging and accumulating experience (both the life kind and the point kind ^_^ ). So I could see, based on that, not gaining HD for monster levels. Now that just leaves LA, a mechanic purely devised for in game balancing issues.
Difficult question indeed. I would rule that the reincarnated charcter gets the bodily abilites of his new form (like darkvision), but not the cultural ones (like the dodge bonus). And I would not grant the racial hit dice. They are probably an inborn ability representing the races toughness rather than something learned, but it would probably imbalance the game. A bugbear has normally a ECL adjustment of +4, and giving that free to a character is asking for trouble, IMHO.
But if you want to be sure, pose the question to the sage.
Stefan
Here's a quote about the Polymorph spell from the newly released MainFAQ on the wizard's site... which gives you a way to handle it. (You can think of Reincarnation like a joined Raise Dead + Polymorph.)
Are racial traits considered extraordinary abilities for the purpose of alter self, polymorph, and similar effects? That is, do I lose my racial traits or keep them when I change my form?
Unless a racial trait is specifically referred to elsewhere as an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability (such as blindsense or damage reduction), it isn’t any of those.
Unfortunately, the spells in question are silent in indicating whether racial traits are kept or lost. For alter self and the alternate form and change shape special abilities, it’s reasonable to conclude that they are retained (and new ones aren’t gained), since your type and subtype(s) remain the same regardless of the new form.
However, the polymorph spell (and any other spell that specifically refers to it) does change your type and subtype(s) to match the new form. Thus, your existing racial traits should be lost (and new ones gained) when using such an effect. (It’s perfectly fine, as a house rule, to have the character retain his own racial traits in place of those of the new form, if the DM and players find that easier to track.)
Other spells of the polymorph subschool replace the character’s existing racial traits (as well as virtually all other game statistics) with those of the new form, which makes the switch easier to adjudicate. See the polymorph subschool in Player’s Handbook II for details.
Any racial trait specifically designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability follows the normal rules for the spell used.
Thanks for your responses everyone. You have a good point delveg, thanks for pointing me to that FAQ question. That helps clear up pretty much everything. Although, I like the idea of not gaining anything that can be attributed to cultural upbringing. I think I'll have to ask the Sage about the Level Adjustment though as I'm still not sure what the heck to classify it as or exactly how to handle it properly in relationship to Reincarnate.
This question has reared its head again in my current campaign. The party's elven ranger just died; a ghoul executed (pun intended) a successful coup de grace against him after the ranger became paralyzed from the ghoul's claw attack. The party is only 3rd level, and raise dead is simply out of their price range. But reincarnate seems to appeal to the ranger's player, and they have the cash to pay for one (and a conveniently placed local druid who can cast the spell, though they aren't aware of that yet).
Looking over this issue again, I now feel that a character should simply become a full-fledged member of the new race, for two reasons. For illustrative purposes, I will refer to the incident I mentioned two years ago, in which a gnome was reincarnated as a human. If the gnome loses his gnome abilities but doesn't gain all those of the human (including the bonus feat and skill point per level), it is both A) unbalanced and B) wonky. The gnome lost his old abilities and didn't get anything in return. Further, he's now a human without a bonus feat and skill. That strikes me as wrong from a mechanical/play balance perspective and even from an in-game perspective. However, if the gnome retained a lot of his gnome abilities, then you'd have a human running around with gnomish qualities. How does one decide which ones get kept and which ones are lost in a way that is consistent and balanced? And, though it may make for an interesting character, it is, once again, wonky.
Therefore, my thinking is that if my ranger's player rolls and his race comes up human, he will loose every one of his elf abilities, even his ability to speak the language, and instead gain the human's bonus feat and skill point per level. On the other hand, if he comes back as a bugbear, he will gain all the racial HD, skill bonuses, and everything else listed under the "bugbear characters" entry in the MM. I find the simplicity of this method outweighs the possible logical problems which might arise (i.e., how he lost his knowledge of elven and suddenly speaks goblin instead).
Feel free to discuss alternate ways of handling the spell, but the question I truly wish answered at this point is akin to the OP's posted two years ago: what should I do if his roll lands him with a level-adjusted race (such as a bugbear)? Should I change his ECL and effectively halt his advancement for several levels? That seems harsh to force onto a player, but fair from a play/party balance/equality standpoint. Or should I just give all the nice advantages of being a bugbear to him "for free?" Please, discuss! I'll likely have to make my ruling in the morning.
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hmm... I would probably put a bit more work into the situation, seeing as it's unlikely to come up very often.
Firstly, most races/templates with LA are usually that way because of stat bonuses. I can see that as being completely justified because they are, afterall, a member of that race now. If it has spell-like abilities, I would have the PC "learn" how to use them. Like maybe at first they can't control when they go off. If a human becomes reincarnated as a gnome, maybe he accidentally sets off his ghost sound ability, which proceeds to reveal what he was thinking at that moment, or maybe he gets startled and releases a bunch of glowing orbs.
If you really have problems with balance, limit the list to LA 0 races. Someone dies, then comes back with a +2 LA is effectively +1 of where they started, after the level loss, which is almost a reward for dying. The god of Chaos would be pleased, but most DMs would not be.
Any physical-based skill bonuses, they lose their old and gain the new. Any mental-based skill bonuses, they keep the old and do not gain the new. Exceptions are spot-listen-search bonuses.
As I'm about to DM a Pathfinder Campaign, I would rule that if you were a race with stat bonuses and got reincarnated as a Human/Half-Elf, you could keep one of your previous bonuses, rather than getting to just choose one.
Here's another question- would you let a newly reincarnated human gain the skill bonuses when they gain levels?
hmm... I would probably put a bit more work into the situation, seeing as it's unlikely to come up very often.
Firstly, most races/templates with LA are usually that way because of stat bonuses. I can see that as being completely justified because they are, afterall, a member of that race now. If it has spell-like abilities, I would have the PC "learn" how to use them. Like maybe at first they can't control when they go off. If a human becomes reincarnated as a gnome, maybe he accidentally sets off his ghost sound ability, which proceeds to reveal what he was thinking at that moment, or maybe he gets startled and releases a bunch of glowing orbs.
If you really have problems with balance, limit the list to LA 0 races. Someone dies, then comes back with a +2 LA is effectively +1 of where they started, after the level loss, which is almost a reward for dying. The god of Chaos would be pleased, but most DMs would not be.
Any physical-based skill bonuses, they lose their old and gain the new. Any mental-based skill bonuses, they keep the old and do not gain the new. Exceptions are spot-listen-search bonuses.
As I'm about to DM a Pathfinder Campaign, I would rule that if you were a race with stat bonuses and got reincarnated as a Human/Half-Elf, you could keep one of your previous bonuses, rather than getting to just choose one.
Here's another question- would you let a newly reincarnated human gain the skill bonuses when they gain levels?
Actually, I was thinking in the case of the human to delay their acquisition of the bonus feat and retroactive application of the skill points until they gain a level. Becoming a human would expand the character's mind in terms of rate of learning, adaptability, etc. But they wouldn't immediately gain knowledge in the form of feats and skill points. But, as soon as the character gained a level, I would allow him to choose the feat and retroactively apply the skill points, and utilize the human's bonus skill points from there on out, too.
But then that messes with why they would know/not know new/old languages, respectively. And what if the character were a human and came back as an elf? Would he lose the human bonus feat and skill points?
Gah, why is this spell so confusing?!
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Maybe you could just have them choose one feat to lose, any feat they choose (though not one that is a prerequisite for another feat they have), and maybe do that with skill points.
Languages... For a human turning into anything, that won't be a problem because they won't lose any languages. The magic of the spell grants them the ability to speak the native tongue of whatever form it gives you, as if you always spoke it. Losing languages is much harder to justify, but then again, everything is easy to justify when magic is involved.
i was always under the impression that languages known didn't change at all. It just says that you don't automatically know the language of your new form, i.e. if you become a Lizardfolk you don't automatically learn Draconic. Also, the spell description says your hit points, base saves, and BAB remain unchanged, so I would imagine that you don't automatically gain the racial HD. It says your feats, skill ranks and class abilities remain unchanged, with the exception of the level you lose, and that you use the chart to remove your previous physical ability score adjustment and then apply your new one.
As to what traits you keep/lose, I'm as lost as everyone else. It stands to reason that you would lose your old racial traits, but it doesn't say anywhere that you do... so it enters the dreaded realm of houserule. In my opinion, you would lose your previous races (ex) and (su), racial skill modifiers due to physiology (camoflage and tails, for example) and unlabelled abilities, but keep (sp) because the ability to cast spell-like abilities seems to be a mental ability and not a physical one. You would then gain all the new races (ex), (su), unlabelled and racail skill modifiers due to physiology. YMMV.
::edit:: Thinking about it in relation to the most recent problem at hand, my personal preference would be that if the dice roll a level adjusted race, just ignore the adjustment as much as you can. If you really feel it will become unbalancing, taking into account that he's going to be a level down anyway, somewhere in the d20srd there are rules for reducing level adjustment over the course of a few levels that would really work out here (the extra XP he'd need to go up a level can be written off to him adjusting to his new form). Since, the way I'm reading it, you don't get the racial HD the worst case unbalancing senario is that you roll a troglodyte (which is LA+2) and that happens only on a 99, and the smelly factor would mitigate it a little. If there are complaints on not getting the racial HD and the bonuses from them, offer the option to draw up a progression (like the Savage Species progressions) to take them one at a time.
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Oh, languages normally don't, but Saern wants to houserule that they do.
Natural Spellcasting should definitely go, because to me it seems more like a physiological thing. Their "chemical makeup" is essentially infused with that particular magic, and since they have a completely new body, none of that magic-goo is in it. Likewise, if you become a race that has it, you will gain it, but I would houserule some "adjustment time".
Again, the simplest way to avoid the "logical problems", is to just say that the spell does what it does on it's own. Afterall, it's divine magic, which means it's really up to the gods how the spell works. I can just imagine an arcane Reincarnate spell going horribly wrong, which is probably why there isn't one. Whenever I start to think of an arcane spell bringing people back to life, I always picture it sort of like the movie Pet Cemetery.
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As far as I can determine it doesn't change anything but the Str, Dex, and Con scores. And well the new race, but you really don't gain that much except for "all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like," and if your a Human who turns into an Elf it doesn't mean you automatically speak Elvish. you do however get to learn how to shoot a bow according to the spell.
I have had this come up before. Here is what I did. Not sure if it is right or wrong, just what I did.
If the players new race has an adjustment, then you begin applying that immediately. e.g. if the new race has a +2 adjustment. You don't drop the character by two levels, however he is now on the LA+2 chart for levelling.
example.
The entire party is level 8
player x dies, and comes back as a level +2 race.
when the party reaches level 9, player x is still level 8
when the party reaches level 10, player x is still level 8
when the party reaches level 11, player x is level 9
when the party reaches level 12, player x is level 10.
etc.
Well, the crises was averted. I arrived at the session and the player in question had statted up a replacement character instead of opting for some form of ressurection. But I should still deal with it in case it comes up again.
In looking over the spell previously, I somehow skipped the part about the languages, and the fact that the chart doesn't change anything but Str, Dex, and Con. So... I'm currently thinking the character looses everything of the previous race other than the language. I.e., dwarves lose their bonus vs. giants, elves lose their immunity to sleep effects, gnomes lose their +1 to illusion spell DCs, a human loses a skill and a feat, etc. (The unnamed bonuses a previous poster mentioned). They gain all of those same types of bonuses of their new form after they have gained a level (and had time to "adapt" fully to their new form). As mentioned before the spell says a characters' hit points, BAB, etc., all stay the same. So no racial HD either. So other than swapping out the unnamed racial bonuses, the only thing that should happen is the character's physical stats are adjusted as indicated. As for the LA... bugbears, gnolls, lizardfolk, orcs, and troglodytes are the only races with more powerful stats than the PHB races, and of those, only troglodytes have any kind of real special ability (their stench). So I'd be willing to just call it a +1 LA for the others and +2 for the troglodyte. So, even though the PC loses as level, they gain XP as if they hadn't. It's somewhat undesireable, but not crippling. And reincarnate is the lowest-level, weakest, and arguably the "worst" method of bringing someone back (in terms of screwing up a character even after revived), so this fits.
