I'm starting in a campaign, joining a mercenary group, as a true neutral, Death+Sun domain lvl 2 Cleric/2 (almost by the book) Urban Ranger with undead as my favored enemy. (I might stick to a regular ranger though, so feel free to cast a vote either way, whichever you think might help in hunting Undead/Being a mercenary and skull collecting.)
My question, though you should feel free to comment on my Urban Ranger/possible Ranger selection this is more of a two part Cleric question. (and yes I remember the thread on the Cleric as a kickass class)
Anyway,
What do you guys think of Turning vs Rebuking
and positive vs negative energy for my cleric. I'm actually leaning towards a negative energy cleric, but this might spoil my attempt at becoming a Hunter of the Dead- which I wouldn't qualify as by the virtue of the "Scar of Unlife," unless I include that in the character's background and the DM(s) accept it.
what do you think of rebuking/commanding undead in a battle situation vs turning/destroying undead.
I'm also giving my character the Skull Lash legacy weapon from the Legacy Weapon book. So any comments on that would also be appreciated. (I forget what damage it does)
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I have a few thoughts on the subject. I have a tough time wrapping my head around a cleric who is the scourge of the undead actually commanding them and bending them to his will. Perhaps the undead-turning anti-undead cleric is a little cliche, but that's because it works. It's a powerful anti-undead game mechanic (as a side note, I recommend feats like Heighten Turning and Empower Turning from Libris Mortis to keep it effective at higher levels). Don't forget, in the right situation, it will DESTROY the undead; isn't that what you're going for?
I also have a tough time with an undead-rebuking cleric with the Sun domain. The granted power of the Sun domain specifically refers to turning/destroying undead, and makes no allowance for clerics that rebuke/command. That's because the only deities in the PHB that confer the Sun domain are Good (Ehlonna and Pelor). You would have to modify the granted power in order to make it work. Not to mention it's a domain full of spells geared towards destroying undead.
My two cents.
I have a few thoughts on the subject. I have a tough time wrapping my head around a cleric who is the scourge of the undead actually commanding them and bending them to his will. Perhaps the undead-turning anti-undead cleric is a little cliche, but that's because it works. It's a powerful anti-undead game mechanic (as a side note, I recommend feats like Heighten Turning and Empower Turning from Libris Mortis to keep it effective at higher levels). Don't forget, in the right situation, it will DESTROY the undead; isn't that what you're going for?
I also have a tough time with an undead-rebuking cleric with the Sun domain. The granted power of the Sun domain specifically refers to turning/destroying undead, and makes no allowance for clerics that rebuke/command. That's because the only deities in the PHB that confer the Sun domain are Good (Ehlonna and Pelor). You would have to modify the granted power in order to make it work. Not to mention it's a domain full of spells geared towards destroying undead.
My two cents.
I just thought it'd be cool to be a cleric who doesn't cure light wounds as much and uses negative energy for once, if I have to change from the Sun domain, that's cool.
Don't forget that the only way a cleric can be true neutral is that he/she has a Neutral deity. This aside, as I read the rules you can still cast the inflict spells and stuff, if that's what you're wanting. It just means you can't spontaneously cast them. Like Celestial, I also have trouble with your favoured enemy and rebuke/command undead combo.
Don't forget that the only way a cleric can be true neutral is that he/she has a Neutral deity. This aside, as I read the rules you can still cast the inflict spells and stuff, if that's what you're wanting. It just means you can't spontaneously cast them. Like Celestial, I also have trouble with your favoured enemy and rebuke/command undead combo.
After some serious consideration, I'm favoring the positive energy option. (Neutral good, Lawful Neutral deities are a stepaway from true neutral, right?)
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That's because the only deities in the PHB that confer the Sun domain are Good (Ehlonna and Pelor).
Here is where I hijack this thread. This is something I've always had a problem with. Just because a deity has the Sun domain, shouldn't mean that they have to be good. I know there has been mention before of creating an evil sun deity for a desert setting, but I'm not sure if this has been done. The most likely book for that would be Sandstorm, and I don't own it.
On the other hand, there are other ways to handle having an evil sun deity. For example - a lesser deity who is tasked by the creator god to fashion a permanent source of light for the world (think Lucifer). This lesser god creates the sun, but then becomes so enamored of his creation's beauty, that he becomes jealous and hides it away from the world (a great way to introduce the myth of why winter occurs). Then the creator god has to take the sun away from him, and banish him. After wards, the lesser guy continues to try and steal the sun away, thus explaining the re-occurence of winter every year, as well as eclipses, etc. Maybe the mythological origins of the desert are that it's the place the evil deity hides the sun during winter, so the land is scorched and burned.
OK, hijack is over.
(Neutral good, Lawful Neutral deities are a stepaway from true neutral, right?)
Yes, but are you still trying to go true neutral? The one-step rule for cleric alignment vs. deity alignment doesn't apply in this case. You have to worship a completely neutral god (Fharlanghn, Onad-Hai in the Greyhawk pantheon for example, but not Wee Jas or Olidammara or Pelor or Nerull) in order for your cleric to be completely neutral as well.
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This is something I've always had a problem with. Just because a deity has the Sun domain, shouldn't mean that they have to be good. I know there has been mention before of creating an evil sun deity for a desert setting, but I'm not sure if this has been done. The most likely book for that would be Sandstorm, and I don't own it.
I can definitely see an evil sun god, so I agree with you on that point. The Sun domain as printed, however, doesn't work with that scenario. You'd have to change the granted power, and probably shift some spells around (or write new ones) that harness the destructive power of the sun as opposed to being all about wreaking destruction upon the undead. My comments were about the Sun domain as printed in the PHB.
Director of Narrative
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Speaking of evil sun gods, you might look up the Aztec god HUITZILOPOCHTLI. Granted, he wasn't considered evil by the Aztecs, but, according to the article I read, he could be fed only by blood (he was a war god too), so his temple was the focus of fearsome sacrifices of prisoners captured by Aztec warriors. Victims' heads were strung as trophies on a great rack!.....
Good reference, but I don't think ol "Hummingbird on the Left" is really representative of D&D deities. Aztecs (and Maya to only a slightly lesser degree) were real big on the whole plucking out of hearts and feeding deities blood. It is a pretty brutal cosmology as a whole. And as far as the sun goes, it had so many different roles that I suppose you could say it had all of the alignments. Heck there were four other 'suns' in existence before our current yellow one. (Which supposedly will set late in the year 2012.)
Good reference, but I don't think ol "Hummingbird on the Left" is really representative of D&D deities. Aztecs (and Maya to only a slightly lesser degree) were real big on the whole plucking out of hearts and feeding deities blood. It is a pretty brutal cosmology as a whole. And as far as the sun goes, it had so many different roles that I suppose you could say it had all of the alignments. Heck there were four other 'suns' in existence before our current yellow one. (Which supposedly will set late in the year 2012.)
We could go on a bit about the supposed end of the world scenario that is suggested by the Mayan Calendar/December 2012.
But what would you think about a negative energy cleric that still hunts undead (albeit his relationship with the undead would be more of a give and take than a destroy all undead one)?
But what would you think about a negative energy cleric that still hunts undead (albeit his relationship with the undead would be more of a give and take than a destroy all undead one)?
I think it would be fun. This cleric has the unique ability to stop his foes in their tracks - how could that not be useful? :) Perhaps he is more gratified by making them cower before him while he strikes them down with his weapon of choice.
But what would you think about a negative energy cleric that still hunts undead (albeit his relationship with the undead would be more of a give and take than a destroy all undead one)?I think it would be fun. This cleric has the unique ability to stop his foes in their tracks - how could that not be useful? :) Perhaps he is more gratified by making them cower before him while he strikes them down with his weapon of choice.
I think that is a great idea.
"Cower before me and know that you recieve just punishment for the crime of your existence!"
Of course, the evil Sun god might be partial to some kinds of undead, the desicated kind like mummies spring to mind. So long as they work for him or work with his followers, maybe their existence isn't a crime...
The need an evil Sun-type domain as much as they needed a good Death domain (see the Repose domain). But I doubt it should have much to do with the undead. More with dehydration/fatigue/sunburn/death, withering crops, etc.
But what would you think about a negative energy cleric that still hunts undead (albeit his relationship with the undead would be more of a give and take than a destroy all undead one)?I think it would be fun. This cleric has the unique ability to stop his foes in their tracks - how could that not be useful? :) Perhaps he is more gratified by making them cower before him while he strikes them down with his weapon of choice.I think that is a great idea.
"Cower before me and know that you recieve just punishment for the crime of your existence!"
Of course, the evil Sun god might be partial to some kinds of undead, the desicated kind like mummies spring to mind. So long as they work for him or work with his followers, maybe their existence isn't a crime...
The need an evil Sun-type domain as much as they needed a good Death domain (see the Repose domain). But I doubt it should have much to do with the undead. More with dehydration/fatigue/sunburn/death, withering crops, etc.
As much as I like and respect the EVIL sun god idea, I don't even need that, I need a neutral sun god since my cleric is true neutral. Thanks to Lilith for convincing me that a negative energy cleric is just as good as a positive energy cleric. Thanks to CallawayR for the nice quote to convince me that a negative energy cleric could be more badass than a positive energy cleric in dealing with undead...I still envision the circumstances where an enemy is badly wounded and instead of letting other characters just outright kill him, my cleric steps up tells the wounded npc "I'm a cleric" (with or without bluff/diplomacy rolls since it'd be deadpan) and walks up and inflicts wounds on the guy, killing him. which would totally be in character and non-evil since he's Death Domain and would see it as releasing the guy into the well-earned clutches of the grim beyond which is what he gets for messing with the cleric/cleric's party.
Neutral good, Lawful Neutral deities are a stepaway from true neutral, right?Correct.
so lets say I worshipped a Wee Jas/Ehlonna hybrid- or both but not necessarily equally or very much on either part since my campaign doesn't really put much emphasis on the DIVINE aspect of divine spell casting and just considers it another way of learning to cast magic. Would the alignments Lawful Neutral/Neutral Good be close enough for a stepaway to True Neutral?
The reason for Ehlonna is the Longbow and Wee Jas is a less than necessary one, I could worship a god of Death of the Barbarians that uses a heavy flail and it make more sense for my character since he has the Skull Lash (weapons of legacy). I'm thinking a barbarian god of Death that may or maynot include the Sun Domain. Basically I'm looking for a reason to still use a longbow while using the Skull Lash (which starts off as a +1 heavy flail- using skulls as the flail heads, which makes perfect sense for my character as the original character design has him as the Skull Collector) Basically I need a god the DM(s) approve of and I'm totally leaning towards negative energy with true neutral being my allignment.
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Would the alignments Lawful Neutral/Neutral Good be close enough for a stepaway to True Neutral?
No. According to the PH, a cleric may only be True Neutral if his deity is also True Neutral. Your DM may feel free to make an exception if it works for his campaign.
Also, a neutral character of a good deity (we'll use a LN cleric of a LG deity for this example) channels positive energy. Only a neutral cleric of a neutral deity gets a choice (unless that deity is St. Cuthbert). So if your DM were to allow a TN cleric of NG deity, the cleric would be positive energy because his deity is good.
The reason for Ehlonna is the Longbow and Wee Jas is a less than necessary one, I could worship a god of Death of the Barbarians that uses a heavy flail and it make more sense for my character since he has the Skull Lash (weapons of legacy). I'm thinking a barbarian god of Death that may or maynot include the Sun Domain. Basically I'm looking for a reason to still use a longbow while using the Skull Lash (which starts off as a +1 heavy flail- using skulls as the flail heads, which makes perfect sense for my character as the original character design has him as the Skull Collector) Basically I need a god the DM(s) approve of and I'm totally leaning towards negative energy with true neutral being my allignment.
You're not going to get longbow proficiency and Skull Lash proficiency without using at least one feat; unless, perhaps, you are an elf, and your deity has Skull Lash as its favored weapon, and you take the War Domain. You do not automatically gain proficiency with your deity's favored weapon, unless your DM has houseruled otherwise.
Perhaps you and your DM could revise the rebuking mechanic, if you like the flavor of it better than turning, so that there is no possibility of controlling the undead. To me, that seems to be a greater issue than rebuking itself, but perhaps it works with your concept.
Would the alignments Lawful Neutral/Neutral Good be close enough for a stepaway to True Neutral?No. According to the PH, a cleric may only be True Neutral if his deity is also True Neutral. Your DM may feel free to make an exception if it works for his campaign.
Also, a neutral character of a good deity (we'll use a LN cleric of a LG deity for this example) channels positive energy. Only a neutral cleric of a neutral deity gets a choice (unless that deity is St. Cuthbert). So if your DM were to allow a TN cleric of NG deity, the cleric would be positive energy because his deity is good.
The reason for Ehlonna is the Longbow and Wee Jas is a less than necessary one, I could worship a god of Death of the Barbarians that uses a heavy flail and it make more sense for my character since he has the Skull Lash (weapons of legacy). I'm thinking a barbarian god of Death that may or maynot include the Sun Domain. Basically I'm looking for a reason to still use a longbow while using the Skull Lash (which starts off as a +1 heavy flail- using skulls as the flail heads, which makes perfect sense for my character as the original character design has him as the Skull Collector) Basically I need a god the DM(s) approve of and I'm totally leaning towards negative energy with true neutral being my allignment.You're not going to get longbow proficiency and Skull Lash proficiency without using at least one feat; unless, perhaps, you are an elf, and your deity has Skull Lash as its favored weapon, and you take the War Domain. You do not automatically gain proficiency with your deity's favored weapon, unless your DM has houseruled otherwise.
Perhaps you and your DM could revise the rebuking mechanic, if you like the flavor of it better than turning, so that there is no possibility of controlling the undead. To me, that seems to be a greater issue than rebuking itself, but perhaps it works with your concept.
Well, at least the main problem- getting the DM(s) to get behind the Character- is already solved. So I guess my deity would be Neutral...I don't see why a deity of death would HAVE to be Evil in Nerull's case...but I don't get why the stepaway rule wouldn't apply to true neutral? that just doesn't make sense. I think at least my dm will allow it. I'll make my deity's favored weapon the Heavy Flail and be done with that, but go with the War domain instead of the Sun Domain unless the extra turning works as rebuking if the sun god were evil. (you can totally have neutral clerics of evil gods, so I don't know what you're talking about with true neutral having to be true neutral gods.)
My deity/deities would be neutral...but lawful neutral or chaotic neutral in the case of the death god and neutral good or neutral in the case of the sun one...or neutral evil in the case of the War. and I'm thinking a barbarian god of death and war for my cleric- which would totally allow the negative energy option (which is what I'm leaning towards)
Also, what about the Repose domain? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#reposeDomain
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The rule about True Neutral is in the PH. Honestly, I didn't make it up ;-)
Anyway, it sounds like you and your DM are on the same page, which is what's important. War domain does seem like an elegant solution to give you the weapon you want without any fuss.
I don't have my Spell Compendium in front of me, so someone else will have to help you out with the Repose domain. From what I recall, though, it seems like it would work okay.
I have a few thoughts on the subject. I have a tough time wrapping my head around a cleric who is the scourge of the undead actually commanding them and bending them to his will. Perhaps the undead-turning anti-undead cleric is a little cliche, but that's because it works. It's a powerful anti-undead game mechanic (as a side note, I recommend feats like Heighten Turning and Empower Turning from Libris Mortis to keep it effective at higher levels). Don't forget, in the right situation, it will DESTROY the undead; isn't that what you're going for?
I also have a tough time with an undead-rebuking cleric with the Sun domain. The granted power of the Sun domain specifically refers to turning/destroying undead, and makes no allowance for clerics that rebuke/command. That's because the only deities in the PHB that confer the Sun domain are Good (Ehlonna and Pelor). You would have to modify the granted power in order to make it work. Not to mention it's a domain full of spells geared towards destroying undead.
My two cents.
The cleric is obsessed with the undead, destroying them is a major goal, but that's just as much as to collect their friggin skulls. and since he's a mercenary, controlling undead wouldn't be a bad thing, after all defeating foes is his primary objective and the means to the ends is almost irrelevant (as long as in the True Neutral case, the actions aren't too good or too evil). I think a modified sun domain would still work. I'd get extra rebuking/commanding, and be able to use spells that destory undead. Maybe that doesn't work with the negative energy...but it works with the true neutral.
Again, the gods don't figure too heavily in this campaign, they don't do divine favors, they don't really even do the divine magic which is more so learned through the divine method rather than an arcane method.
The rule about True Neutral is in the PH. Honestly, I didn't make it up ;-)
Anyway, it sounds like you and your DM are on the same page, which is what's important. War domain does seem like an elegant solution to give you the weapon you want without any fuss.
I don't have my Spell Compendium in front of me, so someone else will have to help you out with the Repose domain. From what I recall, though, it seems like it would work okay.
Would Death/Repose be overkill on the Death you think? I think it fits with the character. and if the god of death is also the god of repose (I'm thinking neutral good or even true neutral) then that shouldn't be a problem. however again I'd have to have the heavy flail be its favored weapon.
the other problem with the sun domain is that the turning/rebuking arguement doesn't work too well since the language leans obviously towards positive energy.
I'll address the issues with my DM, he'll probably have a solution for the Sun/Repose debate as well as how I got proficiency with the Skull lash.
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I can definitely see a real death/repose deity being True Neutral. It seems like that type of deity wouldn't be concerned with good or evil, law or chaos.
I don't think death and repose would be too much death for your domains, you could do it if you want. Although if your character has a mercenary bent, you may still want to consider War.
I can definitely see a real death/repose deity being True Neutral. It seems like that type of deity wouldn't be concerned with good or evil, law or chaos.
I don't think death and repose would be too much death for your domains, you could do it if you want. Although if your character has a mercenary bent, you may still want to consider War.
I had a talk with my DM and I'm going to take Death/Repose and be a specialist as far as the mercenary company will be concerned. The speak with the dead spell under Repose is too tempting to turn down...and it works perfectly with the shoot first ask questions later nature of the mercenary group.
The rule about True Neutral is in the PH. Honestly, I didn't make it up ;-)
It still seems like a weird rule. It seems to be a holdover from previous editions, where True Neutral was the insane tallyman of alignments. "Saved the kitten from the tree (1 Good deed). Now I need to go kick that dog (1 Evil deed). Whew! I'm balanced."
That kind of radical fanaticism may be one type of True Neutral (in fact it may be the "true" of true neutral), but it seems like the rules have gone with a broader interpretation of neutral as being a person who is nice if it isn't too much trouble; will do an evil deed if circumstances demand it, but probably feel bad about it; will obey the rules if they seem to be working for her, but will flout them when it seems like it will work out better that way.
Additionally, even thought they have the "one step" rule in the base rules they break it themselves. St. Cuthbert is LN. So his clerics can be LG, LN, LE, right? Nope, just LN and LG. Wee Jas is the opposite. LN but only allows LN, LE.
Which argues for a discard of the "true neutral not allowed unless deity is also true neutral" rule and of the "one step rule. Deities should allow clerics to have alignments appropriate to their portfolio. One may want his representatives to be either actively or passively beneficent, and will allow any non-evil alignment. Another may be the fanatic balancer of old and allow only True Neutral. Etc.
I still envision the circumstances where an enemy is badly wounded and instead of letting other characters just outright kill him, my cleric steps up tells the wounded npc "I'm a cleric" (with or without bluff/diplomacy rolls since it'd be deadpan) and walks up and inflicts wounds on the guy, killing him. which would totally be in character and non-evil since he's Death Domain and would see it as releasing the guy into the well-earned clutches of the grim beyond which is what he gets for messing with the cleric/cleric's party.
And he should death knell him while he is at it. Why not use his fading life force for your own ends since he so obviously was squandering it before his demise?
"Now, know that as your wretched life ends, I will drink the dregs of it and use it for my own ends, cur!"
Again, the gods don't figure too heavily in this campaign, they don't do divine favors, they don't really even do the divine magic which is more so learned through the divine method rather than an arcane method.
This being the case, the whole alignment matching thing may be irrelevant. They threw it out in Eberron and Arcanis.
If the god is just the biggest, baddest user of the energy from this aspect of the universe, your alignment doesn't really matter unless you meet one?
I still envision the circumstances where an enemy is badly wounded and instead of letting other characters just outright kill him, my cleric steps up tells the wounded npc "I'm a cleric" (with or without bluff/diplomacy rolls since it'd be deadpan) and walks up and inflicts wounds on the guy, killing him. which would totally be in character and non-evil since he's Death Domain and would see it as releasing the guy into the well-earned clutches of the grim beyond which is what he gets for messing with the cleric/cleric's party.And he should death knell him while he is at it. Why not use his fading life force for your own ends since he so obviously was squandering it before his demise?
"Now, know that as your wretched life ends, I will drink the dregs of it and use it for my own ends, cur!"
A truly superb Death Domain suggestion. of course if this is the battle being over (and likely the last person left standing/still breathing on the enemy's side would be this person thanks to the other mercenaries) then it wouldn't be that invaluable to death knell it for reasons of spell level and practicality. In the midst of battle it'd be badass. I'm still going to take the spell as my domain spell when I reach second level casting. Still the first experience the members of the party will have with me being a cleric would go something like I described. If they ask me to heal anyone I'll do a heal check, unless it's an enemy, then I'll take they're friggin skull.
A truly superb Death Domain suggestion. of course if this is the battle being over (and likely the last person left standing/still breathing on the enemy's side would be this person thanks to the other mercenaries) then it wouldn't be that invaluable to death knell it for reasons of spell level and practicality. In the midst of battle it'd be badass. I'm still going to take the spell as my domain spell when I reach second level casting. Still the first experience the members of the party will have with me being a cleric would go something like I described. If they ask me to heal anyone I'll do a heal check, unless it's an enemy, then I'll take they're friggin skull.And he should death knell him while he is at it. Why not use his fading life force for your own ends since he so obviously was squandering it before his demise?
"Now, know that as your wretched life ends, I will drink the dregs of it and use it for my own ends, cur!"
I have to admit I really enjoyed playing a cleric of Wee Jas at one point in time and had a lot of fun with the Death Domain. I told people who wanted healing to go buy potions...
They finally "gave" me a wand of cure light wounds. Which I often failed to use on them. If they meant to take all the healing back for themselves, it wasn't really a gift now was it?
A truly superb Death Domain suggestion. of course if this is the battle being over (and likely the last person left standing/still breathing on the enemy's side would be this person thanks to the other mercenaries) then it wouldn't be that invaluable to death knell it for reasons of spell level and practicality. In the midst of battle it'd be badass. I'm still going to take the spell as my domain spell when I reach second level casting. Still the first experience the members of the party will have with me being a cleric would go something like I described. If they ask me to heal anyone I'll do a heal check, unless it's an enemy, then I'll take they're friggin skull.And he should death knell him while he is at it. Why not use his fading life force for your own ends since he so obviously was squandering it before his demise?
"Now, know that as your wretched life ends, I will drink the dregs of it and use it for my own ends, cur!"
I have to admit I really enjoyed playing a cleric of Wee Jas at one point in time and had a lot of fun with the Death Domain. I told people who wanted healing to go buy potions...
They finally "gave" me a wand of cure light wounds. Which I often failed to use on them. If they meant to take all the healing back for themselves, it wasn't really a gift now was it?
I'll have fairly good heal checks, so people will get stabilized by me, I think the sorcerer or mage or whatever he is has cure light wounds, though I'm not sure why exactly. I'm just not interested in being a walking bandaid so they might suffer a bit first. enemies should beware since my character's personal goal is to collect skulls. (unless of course heads are required for the mission, at which point he'll hold off on cleaning them and attaching them to the skull lash.)
If you have any advice as a fellow player of a Death domain cleric (mine is Death & Repose, what was yours?) please give it. Keeping in mind my character is true neutral. (As is his deity for the sake of avoiding arguements)
If you have any advice as a fellow player of a Death domain cleric (mine is Death & Repose, what was yours?) please give it. Keeping in mind my...
As a cleric of Wee Jas he had Death and Magic. You can see a lot of the flavor of his use of the Death Domain from some of the fake quotes above. He may not have said them, but he said things a lot like them.
Since he had the Magic Domain he seemed a lot more wizard-like than your proposed character (who has a definite combat orientation). He was pretty smart (especially for a half-orc) and most of his combat was acting pretty wizard-like (standing back and blasting away with wands, using scrolls). Though he did love wading into combat with his scythe. Since he had a low Con, he knew this wasn't always a great idea, though (see "smart" above).
A great deal of my characterization of him had to do with an appalling low Cha (6 I think). He was just plain abrasive and rude. Not uncouth, just abrupt, arrogant and condescending (and hard to hear, he was horribly scarred from a childhood encounter with a fireball).
But he would definitely cast death knell at the end of a combat against an enemy he didn't like. Even if there wasn't another fight on the horizon. Just to make the point. After casting death knell, he was usually feeling benevolent enough to actually cast healing spells on fellow party members.