OK. I admit it. This may be a very stupid question, but here goes:
The gear doors in Jzadirune are locked, right? They can't be opened successfully (meaning NOT triggering the trap) unless PCs have the proper key, or they succeed in a search AND disable device check. Do these doors have any kind of knob or handle PCs can grap to try and open the doors? If they set off the trap and survive, do the doors remain closed, or do they get them open?
In other words, is there a way to get through these doors successfully without the keys, which are spread very randomly around Jzadirune and difficult to find?
My PCs are second level, and there are eight of them, but none of them are very good with the disable device thing.
Just thinking out loud here, trying to plan ahead.
All thoughts (even, "yeah, you are stupid!") are welcome.
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If I recall the doors are locked and closed, and by inserting the triangular key (or picking it) the door rolls open. The players pass through and the key is retrievable through the wall at the other side (easiest way I guess), or stays open for x time after they retrieve the key before stepping through. I likened it to a card swipe door IRL, no door handle, swipe your pass card through and the door opens for 10 seconds or so.
You have got me thinking now :) I'll look at the original Dungeon and the SCAPHC when I get in. As for getting aorund I found that a party without keys tends to follow the path of least resistance, which guides them to keys anyway. At leats it did for my lot (no rogues and only three of them).
The gear doors in Jzadirune are locked, right?
Yes. All gear doors are locked. However, the door to J4 is partially open.
They can't be opened successfully (meaning NOT triggering the trap) unless PCs have the proper key, or they succeed in a search AND disable device check. Do these doors have any kind of knob or handle PCs can grap to try and open the doors? If they set off the trap and survive, do the doors remain closed, or do they get them open?
You are correct about successfully opening the doors. I see no handles on the doors in the picture on page 44 of the SCAP hardcover. While it doesn't say explicitly, I ran the doors this way: If the PCs pick the lock, the door opens, but the trap goes off.
Thankfully, the doors stay open until closed. (From the description on page 45 of the SCAP hardcover: "Inserting the proper key causes a locked door to open or causes an open door to roll shut and lock.")
In other words, is there a way to get through these doors successfully without the keys, which are spread very randomly around Jzadirune and difficult to find?
You have two options, from what I've seen: Disable Device & Open Lock OR the keys. The tunnels facilitate movement, but they don't go everywhere.
Personally, I loved Jzadirune, its doors, and its keys, but I also see how it can get tedious for the players. Since the goal is to have fun, if your players aren't enjoying the doors and the hunt for the keys, perhaps Keygan has a set of keys the PCs can borrow or buy. Maybe more doors are cracked open or even broken in. You can also apply circumstance bonuses after they've successfully disabled a trap: "Well, this trap looks an awful lot like the last one you successfully disabled." Whatever works for your group.
After all, the doors are not key (pun intended) to the adventure, they're just for flavor and a little bit of a challenge.
we spent quite a nice amount of time wandering around collecting keys to get us where we eneded to be. Fortunately we had an elf who had a knack of noticing every secret door.
My PCs are second level, and there are eight of them, but none of them are very good with the disable device thing.
You have eight players and no one is playing a rogue (or rogue-like) character? Or have the rogue(s) simply not put many ranks into Disable Device? You might want to encourage them to alter that situation, as traps are a classic obstacle that adventurers need to overcome. Of course, characters get just as much experience from "surviving" a trap as they do from disabling it. :)
Believe it or not, there is not one rogue in the bunch! The closest thing is a dwarf artificer, who wasn't there when the group took their first steps into Jzadirune. His character slept in, and hopes to rejoin the group once he drags his carcass out of the rack. He's a dwarf, too much drinking, all that. Ha!
Anyway, we do have an elf and a half-elf in the bunch, but so far not much luck in finding the secret doors. They are an unfortunate lot so far. The cleric of Kord got stabbed twice, once by the skulk in Ghelve's, and once by one of the skulks in J4. It's hard to beat their hide rolls, even when you're trying to pay attention. They searched J4, found nothing, decided to ignore the tunnels, retreated back into J3, and kicked the rock out of the door, sealing the room off. Then decided to examine J5, assuming that if the gnome in the party simply said the letter J in gnome, the door would open. Well, gas filled the area and they all took damage. That's where we had to finish, and why I asked the question about the doors.
They are not without options, but they are starting to get worried . . .
If I recall the tunnels are laid out to bypass most of the doors. IMC they took a tunnel, and while they were exploring found their first key. They then went around looking for all doors with the appropriate letter and opening them. While doing that they found another key, etc.
They didn't find all the keys, but a combination of the tunnels, ripping down the barricade by the Grell, and the keys they did find got them to every room in Jzadirune.
It sounds like you should let them bumble about until they say, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't have disregarded that tunnel."
I also tend to smile and say something like, "The dungeon is perfectly doable, you just haven't tried everything you can try." It helps them think.
So, if I get this straight, the only way to successfully open the gear doors in Jzadirune without using the appropriate key is to,
1) Detect the trap (using detect magic or some other means)
2) Disable the trap (using a successful Disable Device check)
3) Unlock the door (using a successful Open Lock check).
Otherwise, if a player succeeds at #3, the door opens, stays open, and the trap activates.
I hope that makes sense, and I haven't over-thought this whole door thing. I just want to make sure I run it right, and fairly, for the players. They do enjoy a challenge, so I don't want to fudge on the way the doors are intended to work.
Thanks for all your thoughts, and keep the corrections coming as necessary.
1) Detect the trap (using detect magic or some other means)
A Search check can find it (as listed in the trap description), but if the DC is higher than 20 (as all magic trap's are), then a character needs the trapfinding class feature (or the artificer's "disable trap" ability) to find it.
So a Detect Magic will only reveal if there is a magical aura to the door, and not necessarily reveal if it's a magical or mechanical trap. That makes sense. What about the two doors (J and N) that are simple mechanical traps? Detect Magic would reveal nada, so the traps would spring when attempting to open them via either an Open Lock or Disable Device check.
Interesting . . .
So a Detect Magic will only reveal if there is a magical aura to the door, and not necessarily reveal if it's a magical or mechanical trap. That makes sense. What about the two doors (J and N) that are simple mechanical traps? Detect Magic would reveal nada, so the traps would spring when attempting to open them via either an Open Lock or Disable Device check.
Well, a successful Search check from someone with trapfinding will detect the trap, whether it's magical or not. And a successfull Disable Device check will disable it. Otherwise opening the door with Open Lock without disabling the trap would spring it.
Personally, I find this dungeon design to be an ingenius design. Because it rewards the dedicated lock & trap springer with the ability to move through the complex on his own terms, while making it unnessesary to have a dedicated lock & trap springer by providing the tunnels. However, the PCs then must use the tunnels which makes them wish that they had a dedicated lock & trap springer.
Keep in mind that:
It will be necessary for even the most dedicated 1st level lock & trap springer to take 20 to open those DC 30 locks. Even then, they would not be able to do so until they get some masterwork tools. 4 ranks + 4 DEX bonus +2 MW tools + take 20 = DC 30. Those with less DEX and no Nimble Fingers or Skill Focus feat to increase their Open Lock skill will simply not be able to do it. Two PCs with the Open Lock skill may assist each other, one granting the other +2 with Aid Another. In addition, the 1st level lockpicker that found it frustratingly impossible to open the doors will really appreciate and value their next level, which will make the impossible possible by allocating a rank or more into Open Locks during the adventure.
On top of all of this, the adventure has simpler DC 20 locks spread around for the undedicated lockspringer to get use of his skill.
Like I said: genius design.
My party, having no rogue at the time, simply invested in a greataxe, handed it do the heavy-hitter, and proceeded to hack their way through each door, accepting the fact that without a rogue they simply had to deal with springing the traps each time.
I dug around on my bookshelf today and found an excellent resource to help me figure out my door/trap problems:
DMG!!
(ducking)
With all your help on this forum, and the info from the DMG, I think I have a handle on this adventure. I do still have one question though. The HC says all the door traps have a touch trigger. Obviously the keyhole is not the trigger, since inserting the wrong key does not activate the trap. Does this mean that simply touching the door sets off the trap? Or does the trap not trigger until the door is opened by force? Also, the HC says Dispel Magic will deactivate the magical traps, and that the caster level is 11th. I assume this means that the DC for a targeted Dispel Magic is thus 22. Correct?
Again, I appreciate your thougths. I have only been playing D&D for a couple of years, having gotten back into it to enjoy some creative time with my son. I have DMed some smaller campaigns that I've designed myself, but nothing on this scale. I tend to run my campaigns with a greater emphasis on atmosphere and roleplaying, as opposed to adjudicating rules endlessly. With this group, them being my main group and all, I want to make sure I get the details right.
Perhaps I've worn this topic out, since I haven't gotten any replies to my "touch trigger" question in my previous post.
I am going to assume that the trigger is somehow embedded in the gears, and that the trap doesn't activate unless the door is actually opened. That seems logical to me, and will be less fatal.
If anyone has any more thoughts on this, I'm all ears.
Thanks again for all your help, and I'm sure we'll chat again soon.
Sounds good to me. Either opened without the proper key, or failed disable device (by 5 or more), or if smashed apart. Any of these activities should trigger the trap.
I am going to assume that the trigger is somehow embedded in the gears, and that the trap doesn't activate unless the door is actually opened.
I think you're right. IMC I ruled this in that way.
To increase the possible options I also allowed the doors to be rotated and opened with an appropriate Strength DC (30 indeed). Adding three adventurers strength scores - which is for me the maximum number for a 5 feet door - can lead you to a fair strength bonus. If the DC roll is fine the doors then rotates and triggers the trap...
For me the only way to keep opened a door opened in that way is to block it by a stone or by something suitable.
I had a lot of fun when my second party of players closed the A doors leading to J4 and became "jailed oustside". Just like yours I guess. It was also great when they understood all doors were teeth ones. Their rogue was so coward that he refused to even approach his finger of the locks. After rotating the first door and triggering the first trap (J one in the hallway) they became truly paranoid...
On the other hand my first party (I'm DMing two parrallel SCAP - which is great) never came close from a door before having the proper key. Causing me to be completely frustrated!
Oh, just a last one, my eleven old son is playing for the first time in one of the groups - again it sounds deja vu isn't it ?
Hope it helps
Be creative.
Thanks guys. I appreciate all the advice and the time it took to post. And having my son play is kinda cool. We share many inside jokes around the house, like when he stumbles over his little sister's toys (failing BOTH his spot check and reflex save) or does poorly on a homework assignment (failed knowledge (algebra) check). He's a good kid, and we've had a ball playing together. Between him and D&D (RPG and minis), my daughter and her Pirates of the Spanish Main, my younger son and Race Day or Heroclix, we are a busy gaming family. They all enjoy a hotly contested round of Three Dragon Ante as well.
Peace!
To increase the possible options I also allowed the doors to be rotated and opened with an appropriate Strength DC (30 indeed). Adding three adventurers strength scores - which is for me the maximum number for a 5 feet door - can lead you to a fair strength bonus. If the DC roll is fine the doors then rotates and triggers the trap...
Actually, when characters work together to accomplish a task requiring strength, you shouldn't just add their strengths together. The strength score is geometric, not arithmetic. In other words, 2 people with a 12 Strength do not have the same strength as someone with a 24 Strength. In fact, if you look at the carrying capacity table, you'll see that the capacity doubles for every 5 points increase in Strength.
The way this is supposed to work is that the character with the highest Strength rolls a Strength check, and the others use aid another to help him/her (i.e. if they make a DC 10 on their Strength checks, they add +2 to the primary character's final result). Which means that with 2 people helping, the primary character would need at least a +6 Strength modifier to have any hope of making a DC 30 check.
Of course, you're free to run your game however you like.
My party, having no rogue at the time, simply invested in a greataxe, handed it do the heavy-hitter, and proceeded to hack their way through each door, accepting the fact that without a rogue they simply had to deal with springing the traps each time.
I ruled that some of the traps don't activate if you just hack a hole in the middle of the door and squeeze through. I figure that doesn't necessary set off a trap because it the door doesn't really open as far as the frame is concerned. Some of the magic ones will probably still poof though.
Actually, when characters work together to accomplish a task requiring strength, you shouldn't just add their strengths together. The strength score is geometric, not arithmetic. In other words, 2 people with a 12 Strength do not have the same strength as someone with a 24 Strength.
Hi Mike,
By the book you are right. But it means then it is the same to be helped by my wife or by my stronger brother to move a load...Indeed I'm DM'ing with a lot of home rules to avoid this type of strange "side effect" when needed.
My previous post was misleading. Our actual home rule for strength is not to add the strength scores but the strength scores *bonuses* (with also the +2 aid factor of course).
A DC of 30 works fine to keep the opening of the doors quite challenging, at least with my groups, but it should be slightly increased in front of a bunch of bulls.
As you stated every DM is a free despot in his world... and even the rules can be bent to his will :~).
Be creative