Here is a simple question with some multiple choice answers...
I found the full page ad in between the last two pages of the adventure 'Tensions Rising' in issue 136 to be:
a, A major irritant, I now have embedded sawtooth cardstock in the binding of issue 136.
b. A minor irritant, I left in in and flip over it.
c. Not an irritant at all, I am well trained at ignoring things that annoy me.
d. I used it to buy advertised product! Thanks!
e. Didn't even realize it was there, ad, what ad, huh. You crazy!
Anyways, let the Editors know what you think by posting an answer below and some comments if you want. Thanks!
honestly I do not find advertisments irratating in the least... :::shrug:::, I am just happy that unlike a huge number of magazines out there Dungeon and Dragon do not have more pages of advertisments then they do content.
Here is a simple question with some multiple choice answers...
I found the full page ad in between the last two pages of the adventure 'Tensions Rising' in issue 136 to be:
a, A major irritant, I now have embedded sawtooth cardstock in the binding of issue 136.
b. A minor irritant, I left in in and flip over it.
c. Not an irritant at all, I am well trained at ignoring things that annoy me.
d. I used it to buy advertised product! Thanks!
e. Didn't even realize it was there, ad, what ad, huh. You crazy!
Anyways, let the Editors know what you think by posting an answer below and some comments if you want. Thanks!
I don't mind full-page advertisements anywhere in the magazine. what I do mind are cardstock advertisements - they really make browsing through the magazine a pain in the posterior for me. while I definetly support Ptolus (i've got it pre-ordered), and the scifi bookclub is on occasion quite fun, I'd be a lot happier if those were advertisements printed on the magazine page, rather than cardstock inserted into the binding.
I too despise the card stock advertisements. While some might think of it as despoiling the magazine, the first thing I do is rip them out. Problem solved.
Yeah the adverts on the regular pages are fine, its the cardstock one that bugged me. I guess so far we have three A's and one D.
Only four votes though, I suppose I should have labeled this as containing naked photos of Jessica Simpson. Then we'd get the attention of the people! :)
E the first one is E, sry about the faulty exit polling.
I agree that ads are better printed on normal page and not on cardstock. The cardstock makes the magazaine always open to that page, and I hate that.
New answer, F. Gee, thanks for the free bookmark, I need another one to save my place in this magazine. My personal choice for all.
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Partial C. I did not find it irritating, and I did not feel it was something annoying that could be ignored. My opinion on these types of ads is mostly indifference; I don't feel strongly about them one way or another. I occasionally use them to buy a product (positive) and sometimes find them as a hinderance when I'm flipping back and forth in pages of an adventure (negative).
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I ain't got it yet, but I'll let you know.
I think there was a 2 page art piece in a Dragon a while back, not certain, with a scifi book club or something advert in the middle of it, and I just yernked it out of there.
(Edit) thinking more about it, maybe it would be in the advertiser's best interest if a full-pager wasn't so precariously placed as to make me, the purchaser, yernk it out of my magazine, and...throw it in the garbage...I don't file them away with my gaming materiel exactly. I'm not complaining, I have toddlers anyway and keeping magazines pristine isn't a very good bet, so I'll yernk a full-pager, bend up the staples a wee bit, and not lose much sleep.
I've got greyhawk insert maps with juice spilt on them; just adds character.
But the advertiser prolly would be happier if the add was placed more innocuously to discourage this type of incorrigible behavior. All I'm sayin.'
(edit) As a reaction to the Fake Healers' prompting, I guess partial C...I don't exactly leave them in, and tho I am not well trained at ignoring things that bug me, this ain't one of them. I yernkem and roll on wivvit.
Here is an idea, the dude made the answers multiple choice, a through e. Answer with a letter. He is trying to do a poll.
A is my answer.
FH
the problem with that is that his letters do not quantify everybodies feeling on the subject... for example he classified my response as an E., when in reality it is not, I did notice the advertisment, it just didn't bother me, not so much because I am good at ignoring stuff that annoys me, but because it realy DIDN'T annoy me.
Look, Dungeon is already one of the more expesive magazines that I tend to buy (Too expensive IMO, but I buy it fairly often anyway) and b@*$$ing about the advertising is only going to accomplish one of two things:
#1 The people in charge might ignore your complaints, leading you to resent them and the magazine and make you less likly to buy it, this wouldn't be so bad unless too many people started to feel that way and they decided they needed to further raise the price of the magazine to cover the sales losses.
or
#2 They actually listen to you and and cut down the advertising, but then are forced to increase the price of the magazine because of the loss of revenue...
In general magazines make a lot more money from advertisments then they do from subscriptions and over the counter sales, part of the reason that Dungeon (and Dragon) are so expensive is because they intentionaly keep the amount of advertising low so that they can include more content, personaly I would like to see a couple more pages of ads in each issue so that I could save a buck or so at the check-out counter.
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I found the full page ad in between the last two pages of the adventure 'Tensions Rising' in issue 136 to be:
a, A major irritant, I now have embedded sawtooth cardstock in the binding of issue 136.
You make a mistake that many untrained pollsters make, here. You are asking two questions at once: "how did you feel about it," and, "what did you do about it?"
You should have either made it two polls or not asked in the form of a poll. I don't agree with A because I didn't remove it. On the other hand, I don't agree with B, because I don't find it to be a "minor irritant."
How, then can I vote for any of the above?
So here's your new poll:
1) How do you feel about full-page, cardstock ads in the middle of adventures?
a) They make the magazine a better buy
b) They are nice
c) They are ignorable
d) A minor irritant
e) Actually makes the magazine less worth the price
f) I unsubscribed (or will, or won't subscribe) for this reason
Now if you really care what people do with them:
2) What do you do with full-page cardstock ads in the middle of adventures?
a) Leave them alone
b) Leave them in, but cover/ink-over the ad
c) Detatch and save the ad
d) Remove the ad and throw away
e) Remove all evidence, regardless of damage to the binding
f) Remove and re-bind the magazine
g) Other (please explain)
You might get someone who says (f) to the first one and (a) to the second. How could that be? Well, they might read it in a library or at a gaming club now, where they cannot reasonably remove the ads.
My answers are (e) for 1 and (a) for 2.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Look, Dungeon is already one of the more expesive magazines that I tend to buy (Too expensive IMO, but I buy it fairly often anyway) and b!%@%ing about the advertising is only going to accomplish one of two things:
This has been discussed before, but I don't think people are upset about the existence of ads in the magazine. I agree, they are good (or at least a necessary evil). What people are upset about is the stock and location of this particular ad. This thread, and the others like it, are an attempt to alert Paizo to the annoyance this stock/location creates. The hope is not that Paizo will cut ads altogether, or even reduce ad count, but that they will not do another ad using that style of paper in the middle of an issue.
Now granted, I don't publish any magazines, so these types of ads might be the holy grail of ad dollars. Maybe this ad covers all the costs of the magazine and even allows Eric Mona to buy that brand new porche. If that's the case, I'll live with such ads. After all, Eric deserves a porche. On the other hand, if ads like this are not that profitable, I'd really be happy if Paizo did not print them anymore.
My question was about how you felt about it, not necessarily what you did about it, I was using the second part to illustrate a point and make the poll more interesting. Please vote on how you feel about it.
Anyways, keep them coming, it looks like these cardstock Ads hit a nerve with more than just myself. I hadn't thought of the Razorblade idea, I guess I got a bit of Krusk in me, grunt, rip.
I don't know if this poll is really for the over-the counter buyer so much, after all if your worried about the price within 5 dimes of the over the counter price and hemming and hawing about it you should probably get a paper -route or something. Boy that probably really dates me, do kids do paper-routes for pocket change anymore????
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This has been discussed before, but I don't think people are upset about the existence of ads in the magazine. I agree, they are good (or at least a necessary evil). What people are upset about is the stock and location of this particular ad. This thread, and the others like it, are an attempt to alert Paizo to the annoyance this stock/location creates. The hope is not that Paizo will cut ads altogether, or even reduce ad count, but that they will not do another ad using that style of paper in the middle of an issue.
Now granted, I don't publish any magazines, so these types of ads might be the holy grail of ad dollars. Maybe this ad covers all the costs of the magazine and even allows Eric Mona to buy that brand new porche. If that's the case, I'll live with such ads. After all, Eric deserves a porche. On the other hand, if ads like this are not that profitable, I'd really be happy if Paizo did not print them anymore.
Exactly! I have no problem with ads and as I stated on another thread, I actually like them for informing me of releases I may not have heard of and such. I absolutely hate the location of THAT ad (in the body of an adventure) and the difficulty in removing THAT ad. I had no problem at all with the Pholtus ad because of the location and I don't intend to remove it. It would seem that a less obtrusive ad would recieve more positive response instead of the "Ah gads, I must purge this beast from my magazine ASAP!! *rip, crumple, trashcan*".
It's all about location.FH
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I understand that-emotion vs. action and all, but if
1) I tell Paizo that their advert is ineffective because
2) I yernk the advert if
3) The advert is in the way of my utilizing the mag somehow...
Doesn't that sortof help your cause out, after a fashion?
I. E.: Hey, Paizo, don't put your ad in the middle of the adventure; I'll yank it out and then not look at it again and therefore it won't influence future purchasing decisions; instead put it somewhere innocuous so I'll be tempted to leave it in the magazine.
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I also hate card inserts, since removing them either leaves a sliver of card, or tears the adjacent pages, or mangles the card still in the spine, all of which mean the mag still won't stay open on some pages.
I accept ads are neccessary, and I even find them useful, having been turned on to several websites, stores or games companies through an ad in Dungeon/Dragon, BUT...
they should not be in the body of the articles, but rather, they should be used as 'bookends' to separate articles from each other.
I am sure I am not alone in slicing mags up (cries of "blasphemy!!"), and filing the contents with others of their kind. Spells in one binder, classes in another, scenarios can be separated into ones appropriate to campaign setting and party level, etc.
Having at least 1 or 2 pages between articles allows them to be separated, without having to mess about with a copier, so you can bring a selection of those relevant to your game and leave at home what isn't. You can even lend part of an issue to another player, without having to hand over something vital you'll need for next week's session.
So please, could this be considered when laying out the mag? I promise I will read every advert if you do.
Really. If anybody from Paizo is listening, I normally go through, read the magazine, choose the usable adventures, read the comics, take out any information I want, read the ads, consider purchasing. I have looked at fewer ads in this last issue because I hate the ad in the middle of the adventure. Please, <i>please</i> never print on cardstock in the middle of the adventures. Or on normal pages in the adventure either. Trust me, the adds will still be read if they are a sidebar or in between adventures.
Maybe put Mt. Zogon on the same page as an ad?
Creative Director
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We're listening. Unfortunately, it's not something that we can easilly control. When I do paginations, I try to place the ads in a way that's both non-intrusive to the adventures, yet at the same time honors what the advertiser pays for. As it turns out, most of them want to be in the first third of the magazine, and that simply means that some of them will appear in the middle of adventures. As for card stock ads, they can only appear in one or two locations in the magazine due to the realities of how magazines are put together. That location will ALWAYS fall inside of an adventure. It's just the way it is.
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We're listening. Unfortunately, it's not something that we can easilly control. When I do paginations, I try to place the ads in a way that's both non-intrusive to the adventures, yet at the same time honors what the advertiser pays for. As it turns out, most of them want to be in the first third of the magazine, and that simply means that some of them will appear in the middle of adventures. As for card stock ads, they can only appear in one or two locations in the magazine due to the realities of how magazines are put together. That location will ALWAYS fall inside of an adventure. It's just the way it is.
Maybe place the ads before any adventures like the fashion mags do (what?!? No, I never read a fashion Mag!). It would suck having 10 pages of ads in a row, but you honor a commitment and keep the consumer happy. Or just perforate all cardstock ads. I don't understand why an advertiser would want to be in the first third of the mag, I personally pay more heed to the later sections of ads.
You guys are doing a great job and please don't take this whole issue as an attack against the hard work you guys are doing. The fact that the Paizo staff sees and responds to our concerns just adds to the exceptional quality of the company.Thank you.
Perforate the card stock. ;P
FH
James, can you ask these advertisers if its ok to perforate the ads, so #1 if you are going to use them its easy to do so, and at the same time the people who aren't going to use them aren't stuck with them in the center of an adventure they are going to try and someday use, I understand that on the part of an advertiser being in the middle of an adventure, and being unremovable might be an advantage! But hey we are paying en-masse for our subscriptions too.
My suggestion is that Paizo just make it an official policy that they will only accept certain types of ads for that position in the magazine. I.e. at least perforated and preferably half page.
I know that often these types of decisions might not be up to just you and Eric, If there is someone in sales we should send an e-signed protest to, let me know and I will collect it and send it along, maybe if we get a few hundred signees they will listen, after all it is us that their advertisers are trying to sell their product to, and we are a very good demographic, i.e. educated men between the ages of 20-35, well some of us at least used to be 35 not too long ago, :)
...we are a very good demographic, i.e. educated men between the ages of 20-35, well some of us at least used to be 35 not too long ago, :)
So long as you add "women" to that mix...;)
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Creative Director
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I understand the frustration of having ads show up in the middle of adventures, but it's not something we can (or want) to change. We listen to our customers, and make changes where and when we can, but this is a case where we have to go with what the advertisers want.
The revenue we get for ads in the magazine is a significant part of what makes magazine publishing viable and possible. And believe it or not, Dungeon actually doesn't have enough ads to do something like "place them all in the front". Sometimes advertisers want to be a certain number of pages away from others. Sometimes they want to run several linked ads over the course of multiple pages. There's a LOT of variables, and I do my best to make sure that they don't interrupt the flow of an adventure. Which is why you'll never see ads placed in the first few pages of an adventure, or why any full page ads appear facing the last page of an adventure whenever possible. As for the card-stock ads, the good news there is that we won't be doing many of these ads in a year. Perforating the ad isn't really an option (this is expensive, first of all, and second, it needs to be something that the advertiser wants—unfortunatly, ease of removal isn't something that they'd want).
As for a direct answer from sales, Josh Frost has already answered questions about it here.
Ok James it sounds to me like you all aren't going to fill up the adventures with Cardstock ads, which are really the only ones that anyone has a complaint about and realize that these are a major pain to the reader. I can live with one or two a year.
Good point, I never considered the restrictions the add companies themselves placed.
Maybe the first issue a subscriber gets should come with a razor to remove the non-perforated cardstock.(joking)
;P
My pick would be:
c. Not an irritant at all, I am well trained at ignoring things that annoy me.
When I read this thread title, for a moment I was concerned we were talking about product placement within the adventure text. I.e.
"... is the only way to defeat Kyuss." Manzorian takes a sip of cool, refreshing Budweiser before continuing...
Now _that_ I would have a problem with. ;-)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My pick would be:
c. Not an irritant at all, I am well trained at ignoring things that annoy me.When I read this thread title, for a moment I was concerned we were talking about product placement within the adventure text. I.e.
"... is the only way to defeat Kyuss." Manzorian takes a sip of cool, refreshing Budweiser before continuing...Now _that_ I would have a problem with. ;-)
Winner: Best post to the thread.
I am laughing so hard...
Clean cool and refreshing, James I hope you didn't read that, just because you know personally I'm a miller man, :)
Clean cool and refreshing, James I hope you didn't read that, just because you know personally I'm a miller man, :)
I'm sure farewell2kings and I will represent the "Homebrew is Better" crowd - down with big breweries, support your local homebrew and get a real beer with bigger, better, bolder taste! I will gladly share my Enunciator Terminator with everybody (who's of age...).
Clean cool and refreshing, James I hope you didn't read that, just because you know personally I'm a miller man, :)I'm sure farewell2kings and I will represent the "Homebrew is Better" crowd - down with big breweries, support your local homebrew and get a real beer with bigger, better, bolder taste! I will gladly share my Enunciator Terminator with everybody (who's of age...).
Best. Beer. Name. EVER.
I was always fond of Polygamy Porter: Why Have Just One! from Wasatch, the beer is okay but the T-shirts (encouraging people to take some home to the wives) are awesome.
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Thank you to all the Paizo staff who have taken the time to read and respond to our queries and comments.
It may sometimes seem as if we're on your backs over trivial little details, but I certainly appreciate that the answers we get (whether on this issue, or others, like the item pack randomness) are polite and take the time to explain the real-world economic factors behind some artistic decisions.
I can only imagine the hoops you have to jump through to please all the advertisers all the time, when they will often want the same spot for its (imaginary?) prestige.
I happen to believe that ads in the middle of articles are not only artistic vandalism, but less productive. When I slice my articles out of a mag, any ads that stand alone can be kept in a file, passed to friends (Hey, check this out!), kept in a pocket to take to the games store. Any that take up an even-page slot after an article will shine out of the plastic wallet every time I leaf through the binder. Any ad that infects the body of the text will only be re-read if and when that article is selected and spread open.
No doubt the graduates of advertising school have graphs and pie-charts and God-knows-what else voodoo gobbledigook to point at to justify themselves. Those aids are wrong. End of story.
The solution would seem to be, to get the consumer voice to whisper in the ears of the companies that advertise, and alter their perception of where the 'happening' place is for their ad to be seen. Then, when they're fighting for one of the prime spots in-between the articles, the folks at Paizo can please all of them, and us, at the same time.
Everybody wins!!
I've always been somewhat neutral on the issue. Magazines have had advertising in it for as long as I can remember -- without them, the price of publishing would skyrocket, and Dungeon would cost about $10 an issue. Not cool.
Cardstock inserts are as ubiquitous as junk mail turning up in your mailbox every Wednesday. Again, it's a necessity; as my postman told me a couple weeks ago, "If it weren't for these, a stamp would cost you about two bucks." Besides, I can use 'em as bookmarks, or to hastily jot down a phone number. Again, livable.
The one ad I've been having trouble with in Dungeon is the series being placed by RSI, the "Goin' Postal" ones urging people to try their Play-By-Mail games. About six months ago, they were running an ad showing a rather buxom woman using her 'charms' to convince a sweaty guy to play. VERY sexist, and rather discriminating against both sexes.
I wrote to them, asking them to stop running that ad. About two months later, the ad changed -- although the woman they used still turned up in the background.
This month, it's even worse. Near the end of issue #346 is their ad, on page 95 right after Nodwick. This one features "Skip", the stereotypical video-gamer, "Reginald" the chess-player, "Ashley" the MMORPG gamer-chick, and lastly, Todd.
Now, the three characters above are pretty bad, because they flaunt stereotypes in a very negative way. But Todd, right in the middle of the ad, is the worst. His contribution? As soon as Ashley introduces herself, Todd brightens the day with "I cast wild love monkey on you Ashley. Better roll your savings (sic) throw vs Todd baby!"
I almost threw the magazine away.
Is RSI running these horribly offensive ads anywhere else? Are they really getting any business from this campaign? And haven't they figured out that your average gamer isn't some little 12-year-old with no social life? We're growing up, people, getting jobs and families and all the fixings. And a lot of us have kids who we're introducing to gaming. Having ads like these, full of gender discrimination, blatant stereotyping, and reinforcement of misconceptions only hurts, and might even turn some people away.
I'd write to them again, but I'm afraid they're going to respond by showing D&D players straight out of a Jack Chick tract. The last thing we need is to get that stigma back.
I haven;t gotten to that adventure yet. But in general, advertisement's don't bother me at all. They help keep our costs down, and they bring to light some really cool products.
I thought "Better roll a saving throw versus Todd" was an amusing pun (on the 2ed "saving throw versus rod"), but it was marred by the author calling it a 'savings' throw.
Do they really have a mail waterfall?