This has always kind of bugged me about paralysis effects- shouldn't things fall down? There is absolutely nothing in the rules as written that says "a paralyzed creature falls prone." Now, with Hold spells, remaining upright might make some sense, as it isn't physical paralysis, but a mental compulsion to not move. So, perhaps it allows for minor muscle flexing to maintain balance, although if one charged, ran, or double moved within the last round before being affected by the spell, I think they should be entitled to an immediate DC 20 Balance check or Reflex save or fall prone. For physical paralysis from poisons and such, there should be no save. I want something to distinguish between biologically induced and mentally induced paralysis in the mechanics.
Also, a question about spellcasting while paralyzed: Can one cast a Stilled Spell while paralyzed if it has a verbal component? Moving of one's mouth is still moving. Or is the answer "yes" and this is simply delving into the realm of "reality" too far once again?
I've mulled this over a great deal, and what I've come to is this: case by case. Variety is king here. The paralytics that cause people not to fall over, I often attribute to severe muscle contraction and lockdown that freezes the target in place. Other paralytics might cause a target to ragdoll. Some might just rack the character with so much pain that they cannot will themselves to move, as sometimes happens with broken bones. Hold spells generally gloss the skin and items of the characters with a stony luminous sheen and they are lucid but helpless, but with other more natural types of poison and effects, I'd say go crazy. Depth and evokative description are what make good games into awesome games.
How does this affect magic? Well if you're paralysed you can't make gestures, but then you also can't talk and you certainly can't dig through pouches to find the right components--so unless somehow you can cast a spell with NONE of those, you're in tough shape. However I'd argue a purely mental effect (such as psionics or some innate spells and special abilities) would work just fine. This assumes of course that the paralysis is the standard frozen in place effect--rather than one of those writhing in uncontrollable agony loudly begging to die kinds of effects.
Yarg, havn't been able to post much recently, seeing as finals are coming up alarmingly quickly. However, being a pre-health major, I am perhaps in the proper mindset to answer your question. There are two general types of paralysis, called flacid and rigid. The first caused by an inability to move muscle groups, the second caused by an inability to relax muslces at all. Poisons in the animal kingdom come in both varieties. Black Widow spiders, interestingly enough cause rigid paralysis, their venom disabling the enzyme in muscle-nerve synapses that shuts of the nerver activation process. This usually results in cramps, clenched facial features and stiffness. Death results from an inability to relax the heart to prepare for another beat. Curare, poison arrow frog venom, I belive is the flacid variety (could be wrong so don't quote me ;) The result is shallow breating and heart beat with death usually resulting from an inability of the heart to beat or the lungs to breath. Death only occurs in the most severe of cases of course, (I guess its hard to think of a case more severe than death anyhow) General weaknes and loss of coordination due to an inability to control oneself is pretty common though.
To answer your question though, lets take into account that the human heart in myogenic, that is to say that it can beat independant of stimulation from the brain thanks to the pacemaker. This is also one reason that people paralyzed above the heart can still survive. Anyhow, if paralysis is a mental effect than it either causes the brain to send contraction signals to all muscle groups in the body or it prevents the brain from sending contraction signals to the body.
Since the brain does have overide control over the pace maker I would assume that if the spell causes the brain to send contraction signals to the body would also cause the heart to clench up, therefore resulting in a VERY bad situation for the recipiant of the spell. If the spell however simply prevents the brain from sending contraction signals then the heart would continue to beat on its own, thus rendering the target of the spell helpless, but not dead. Therefore I belive it is most likely that the spell would cause the target to go ragdoll and flop to the ground like a sack of potatoes. (this is ofcouse assuming that the spell effects all muscle controling areas of the brain, not just those that control concious movement.)
Sorry for the overly verbose post, hope this helps however.
If the spell however simply prevents the brain from sending contraction signals then the heart would continue to beat on its own, thus rendering the target of the spell helpless, but not dead. Therefore I belive it is most likely that the spell would cause the target to go ragdoll and flop to the ground like a sack of potatoes. (this is ofcouse assuming that the spell effects all muscle controling areas of the brain, not just those that control concious movement.)
Good thoughts on an interesting topic. The only thing I would add to Sel Carim’s good post is that the diaphragm is neurogenic, meaning that it does require stimulation from the brain to contract. If you had no ability to contract whatsoever, then you couldn’t breath. I think if the spell is mentally affecting it could target only the conscious centers of the brain and not the brain stem, thus removing the ability of the victim to control skeletal muscle, but not impairing the body’s regulatory functions. This would render the target immobile but not dead, and it would certainly preclude a spell caster from using any somatic, verbal, or physical components. Tough to grab anything out of your belt pouch when you can’t move your arm. Another possibility is that the spell functions like the Harden Air weave out of the Wheel of Time core book. Harden Air, as the name implies thickens the air around the limbs and trunk of the target, preventing them from moving. Casters must be careful however, to allow the recipient of the spell enough room to breath, or not depending on your disposition >:)
I guess in some ways magical paralysis is easier to adjudicate than the kind of paralysis that results, say from a paralytic poison or a spider bite. For attacks like those, I would say the flacid/rigid effects are right on. I love the fact that we have guys who can actually answer the medical side of questions like this. I'd argue though that spells work somewhat differently. Hold person does affect the mind, but is not blocking all signals. The target for example maintains balance, standing rigid in his location. He may breathe but not talk. It's selective in what is affected. Temporal stasis is another example of paralysis, but the form and symptoms are entirely different. Then again, in Medea there's a poison that causes people's flesh to turn into a creepy adhesive tar, so maybe even poison isn't as straightforward as it is in the real world...
First of all, let me say that is fascinating and goes a long way to answer questions of paralysis from actual poison. Since no D&D paralysis effect that I know of causes death, too, that would mean that it's flacid, so people should collapse. It also gives an interesting insight to some possible changes in the nature of the Clutch of Orcus spell.
However, I view Hold Person to be quite different from a physiological effect. It's more like OCD, with the comopulsion being to not move. It's a pure psychological statis brought about from the nature of the magic, as noted by the "Compulsion" descriptor. Given that, I would say verbal components could be issued if the caster succeeds at a second Will save. Also, Enchantments don't affect the physical body. You could make a Transmutation paralysis spell that had the above logic behind it, but I don't think Enchantment is the right school for what you described. If it was a physiological effect, it would most likely require a Fortitude save.
At any rate, I also view Temporal Statis completely differently. This isn't a simple paralysis spell. It seems to me that, while leaving the target's physical form in the world, the target is in fact cut of from time and space around it.
Thanks for the free seminar, however! :)
Trying to apply real world science to a D&D game seems a bit pointless. Dragons, after all, are way to big to be able to fly with their little wings.
Changing paralysis on a case by case basis is a bad idea. It makes the rules of the game inconsistent.
If you want to house rule that paralysis makes the victim always falls down, that's a better route. Realize though that you're making paralysis much more powerful: Victim falls and drops weapons, standing back up provokes an AoO, has to take time to regather his equipment.
Not so much if you rule it is only from paralysis effects of an extraordinary origin, as opposed to Supernatural, Spell-like, or an actual Spell. Then it's easy to remember, consistent, and makes a clear definintion between magical (compulsory) paralysis and physical toxins.
>> Not so much if you rule it is only from paralysis effects of an extraordinary origin, as opposed to Supernatural, Spell-like, or an actual Spell. Then it's easy to remember, consistent, and makes a clear definintion between magical (compulsory) paralysis and physical toxins.
A cloaker's moan can cause a stupor that is "as affected by a hold person spell". But it's an extraordinary ability. So it works just like the spell but, by your rule, it behaves differently since it is extraordinary.
A ghoul's and ghast's touch causes paralysis but there is no real hint as to why. Is that a magical or physical toxin? It's Ex, so that determines how you'd play it, but it's a pretty arbitrary decision since we have no clue has to how the paralysis is done "science-wise".
If it's extraordinary, there is no magic at work, and it is purely physical, resulting in the cahracter dropping prone and possibly losing his held items. If it is anything else, it is magical and doesn't result in falling prone. I, personally, don't see enough of a conflict to cause a problem, and plan on implementing it.
>> Not so much if you rule it is only from paralysis effects of an extraordinary origin, as opposed to Supernatural, Spell-like, or an actual Spell. Then it's easy to remember, consistent, and makes a clear definintion between magical (compulsory) paralysis and physical toxins.
A cloaker's moan can cause a stupor that is "as affected by a hold person spell". But it's an extraordinary ability. So it works just like the spell but, by your rule, it behaves differently since it is extraordinary.
A ghoul's and ghast's touch causes paralysis but there is no real hint as to why. Is that a magical or physical toxin? It's Ex, so that determines how you'd play it, but it's a pretty arbitrary decision since we have no clue has to how the paralysis is done "science-wise".
True enough, but then players aren't supposed to see those books to know.... I'm for face plant.
Also for the record I do believe it is adjudicated both ways in the core rules themselves.
The SRD (Abilities and Conditions) reads:
PARALYSIS
"Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. (Paralysis from toxins is discussed in the Poison section below {but don't really say anything different other than they are Extrodinary abilities}.)
A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown."
The Player's Handbook 3.5 page 311 though reads mostly the same (it removes the phrase "rooted to the spot," leaves in "frozen in place"), but adds:
"A paralyzed character has an effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions."
Looking up the effects of Strength 0 (Ability Damage page 304):
"A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed."
Looking up Helpless (page 309) yields:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
All that said it shouldn't be much problem to shove a held person over or use a readied action to use hold person the moment someone starts charging into the room. Also one must now also consider the ramifications of the sleep spell as most people I know (unless they are sleep walking) topple over whilst asleep. Even without this possibility sleep, a 1st-level spell, still seems better by comparison in most respects (multiple targets, longer duration, normally one saving throw only instead of one every round)....
Fortunately I'm immune to both,
GGG