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How useful are rogues in Age of Worms? I'm worried that when I run Age of Worms, anyone playing a rogue in my group will get the feeling he's getting the short end of stick because he'll be unable to use his sneak attack against the most common creature type in AoW. As a powergamer myself, I know having one of your most powerful abilities be less useful can be somewhat frustrating. After reviewing the first eleven adventures, I noticed that undead is the only creature type present in EVERY adventure and is predominant in three of them (Champion's Belt, Spire of Long Shadows, and Into the Wormcrawl Fissure). Approximately 20% of encounters in AoW are against undead, some of them are 'boss' encounters (Apostle in Champion's Belt, Mak'ar the spellweaver lich, Boneyard of Kyuss, Dragotha). This is way more than any other type of creature (aberrations came in 2nd place). I want my players to do well because once the campaign starts, I'm not going to pull any punches. I have made a few recommendations to them such as their chances of survival are greater if they have a cleric, any wannabe rangers should choose undead as their primary favoured enemy, etc.
To me, a rogue is all about skill points and sneak attack. The rest is flavouring. A rogue needs to be able to take care of traps and sometimes locks to earn its place in a party. I understand why the average party is better off when it has characters from all four food groups (warrior, rogue, divine, & arcane). There are two adventures where traps are predominant: Whispering Cairn and Gathering of Winds. The other adventures can probably make do without a rogue. Would a party be better off with a multi-classed rogue or no rogue at all? I'm curious to see if this has caused any problems with anyone.
Creative Director
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While it's true that the primary villians of "Age of Worms" are undead, we went into the design of the adventures knowing that this would hurt rogues. Which is why we tried to include as many non-undead encounters as we could. Some adventures have little or no undead at all, including late adventrues like "Library of Last Resort" and "Kings of the Rift."
There's also a fair amount of traps for rogues to play around with.
Two other places a rogue can shine in Age of Worms, thoguh are in stealth/scouting situations and in social situations. If a PC wants to create a rogue for an Age of Worms campaign, it's probably a good idea for the DM to warn them ahead of time that undead feature heavilly and that the rogue shouldn't ignore the Charisma-based skills or the stealth options.
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Two other places a rogue can shine in Age of Worms, thoguh are in stealth/scouting situations and in social situations. If a PC wants to create a rogue for an Age of Worms campaign, it's probably a good idea for the DM to warn them ahead of time that undead feature heavilly and that the rogue shouldn't ignore the Charisma-based skills or the stealth options.
True, but a ranger or a bard can do this without hurting their primary functions. Right now I'm playing a dwarf in Shackled City whose only positive abilities are strength and constitution. This hasn't prevented me from appraising every trinket we come across, doing lots of talking, playing instruments I never learned to play, sneaking aroung in full plate, and getting us in trouble. If the skill can be used untrained, I'm not going to let a -6 modifier to my roll get in my way. Let's just say it's been a lot of fun, much to my DM's consternation. (BTW, I especially enjoyed Flood Season, wherein I loss to Lord Vhalantru in the final round of a drinking contest and got to play the role of the demon, Nabthatoron, in the Demonskar Ball. I accidently knocked out Zachary Aslaxin when I rolled three 20's in a row. Oops! I later found out that adventure had been written by the talented James Jacobs. Good job.)
My point is that, with a bit of tweaking, any character can excel in social encounters and a ranger with maxed-out search and stealth with undead as a favoured enemy can possibly be more useful than a rogue in Age of Worms.
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Some adventures have little or no undead at all, including late adventrues like "Library of Last Resort" and "Kings of the Rift."
While Kings of the Rift, Prince of Redhand, Gathering of Winds, Hall of Harsh Reflections, and Encounter at Blackwall Keep only have a few encouneters with undead, some of them are important such as the original Spawn of Kyuss in Blackwall, Moreto the Ghoul, and the Acidwraith in Alhaster. But the final encounter in Library of Last Resort against 20 Swords of Kyuss and a Boneyard makes LoLR an undead-heavy adventure, even if the outcome is irrelevant.
My point is that, with a bit of tweaking, any character can excel in social encounters and a ranger with maxed-out search and stealth with undead as a favoured enemy can possibly be more useful than a rogue in Age of Worms.
Let's see that Ranger hit a DC 45 Diplomacy check ;)
My group is doing just fine without a Rogue. Artificer is a nice substitute for the iconic trapfinder.
That said, as long as you keep an open mind while making a Rogue you can play a huge roll in AoW. Sneaking around through the TFoE would be a huge help, Sneak attack can play a huge roll (HoHR, TCB, LoLR, KotR), and the oft overlooked interaction skills have handy uses in almost all of the chapters. Read through those carefully, a key Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Bluff roll could be the difference between a tough fight and a powerful ally. If someone wants to play a rogue, gently nudge them towards that Int and Cha score, you both will love the results.
And, BTW Mr. Jacobs, I'm just itching to find out how the PC's will use fame points from PoR in Dawn of a New Age.
Anarch of Kind Flowery Words
AKA Anarch of PleaseDon'tKillMe!
Having a halfling rogue in the party, I am keenly aware of this problem. There have be a few fights where his meager 1d4 short swords can't even penetrate the DR at max damage. The solution to the problem prsented itself in the Spell Compenduim.
There is a 1st level cleric spell, I can't remember what it's called, but you cast it on yourself as a free action, and your next attack allows you to use a sneak attack on the undead. Since it's self only your rogue would have to take a level of cleric, but it could be worth it. If, like me, your party rogue has a Wisdom of 8, you could make it a magic item.
I'm trying to figure how to do just that. Since its a 1st level spell it would be really cheap, but I think its awfully powerful to have it as an always active item. I'm thinking of makingh it like boots of haste where you have 10 rounds per day, but I'm not sure.
There's a feat (or maybe a prestige class, I don't remember right now) in book of exalted deeds that allows rogue to use their sneak attack against undead.
Maybe you could suggest your rogue's player to take a look at that.
Having a halfling rogue in the party, I am keenly aware of this problem. There have be a few fights where his meager 1d4 short swords can't even penetrate the DR at max damage. The solution to the problem prsented itself in the Spell Compenduim.
There is a 1st level cleric spell, I can't remember what it's called, but you cast it on yourself as a free action, and your next attack allows you to use a sneak attack on the undead. Since it's self only your rogue would have to take a level of cleric, but it could be worth it. If, like me, your party rogue has a Wisdom of 8, you could make it a magic item.
I'm trying to figure how to do just that. Since its a 1st level spell it would be really cheap, but I think its awfully powerful to have it as an always active item. I'm thinking of makingh it like boots of haste where you have 10 rounds per day, but I'm not sure.
Grave Strike. The Clr/Rog in my player's party used it to great effect vs. the Morgh in TCB.
Having a halfling rogue in the party, I am keenly aware of this problem. There have be a few fights where his meager 1d4 short swords can't even penetrate the DR at max damage. The solution to the problem prsented itself in the Spell Compenduim.
There is a 1st level cleric spell, I can't remember what it's called, but you cast it on yourself as a free action, and your next attack allows you to use a sneak attack on the undead. Since it's self only your rogue would have to take a level of cleric, but it could be worth it. If, like me, your party rogue has a Wisdom of 8, you could make it a magic item.
I'm trying to figure how to do just that. Since its a 1st level spell it would be really cheap, but I think its awfully powerful to have it as an always active item. I'm thinking of makingh it like boots of haste where you have 10 rounds per day, but I'm not sure.
Well, this may be a moot point depending on his charisma, but you could also just leave some scrolls of this spell in the loot, and then "encourage" the rogue to buy a wand of it. Then just have him use UMD to activate the spell.
I posted a response to this thread, and now my post is gone. Any idea why?
The other thing that just popped into my head was the Wormhunter prestige class. It has an ability that lets you crit against undead, which means that you can sneak attack as well. Not to mention an equivalent to Favored Enemy: Minions of Kyuss.
See, all you have to do to become a killing machine in AoW is go a little nuts ;)
Anarch of Nutters
We don't play 3.5 so maybe my opinion won't count much in this discussion since it seems your goal is to maximize your character's spotlight moments (or "power game" as you yourself call it). But I think it all depends on who is playing the rogue and how they play it.
Now I admit that the rogue in our campaign is multiclassed as a wizard but that was only because we have a limited amount of players and we wanted the *small* number of characters to cover the full range of abilities. That being said, the PC in question has had many more opportunities to "shine" as a rogue than he has as a spell-caster. The rogue is definitely an invaluable part of the team. The party also contains a ranger but the rogue outperforms him in classic thieving situations. The overlap is actually quite small in our experiences. The player controlling the rogue is not sorry he chose that class; and far from feeling neglected/frustrated, has been the source of some envy by the other players.
The other thing that just popped into my head was the Wormhunter prestige class. It has an ability that lets you crit against undead, which means that you can sneak attack as well. Not to mention an equivalent to Favored Enemy: Minions of Kyuss.
See, all you have to do to become a killing machine in AoW is go a little nuts ;)
Anarch of Nutters
Which issue of Dragon has the Wormhunter PrC in it? I would like to check it out for the rogue in my group.
I'm rewriting the post that somehow vanished earlier.
Rogues are very important in AoW, and the fact that they can't sneak undead is no big deal.
I suggest taking dodge and combat expertise (and perhaps improved combat expertise at later levels) to make it that much harder for undead to hit the rogue.
Gather information is very important in city settings. Hide and move silently are also great benefits. Disable device is a must in AoW (some traps could slay the entire party if not found and disabled).
Speaking of skills, use magic device allows a rogue to use a wand or scroll to blast undead with scortching rays, fireballs, searing lights, etc. Problem solved.
Not only that, but with a wand of scortching ray, that rogue can make ranged sneaks at 30' against foes with a living anatomy. Big benefit there.
It might also be a good idea to accept the fact that the rogue shouldn't enter combat, and should just hide while the combat experts mop up. It's not like every PC has to "get their licks in" during every encounter. This isn't Final Fantasy. At least make sure the rogue has at least a mundane ranged weapon to make those ranged sneaks when an opening presents itself.
There might be a relatively large number of undead in AoW, but not enough to render a rogue useless in the campaign arc.
In fact, put a wand of cure critical wounds into the hands of a rogue, and he/she can move, hide, and zap PCs engaged in battle or zap undead for damage.
Take the rogue.