I'm sure this question has been asked, but would any prominent cartographers feel like stepping forward and giving some ideas of how one actually goes about creating Dungeon quality maps? That is, do you use Photoshop and layers? Do you draw things by hand? Do you start out with a beige background, a grid over that and then draw on top of that? How does all of this work? I guess a minor tutorial is what I'm looking for.. I think it would be tremendous fun to do. Thanks.
Ugh! I still do mine by hand the same way I did when I was in high school. But then, fantasy map-making (and geography in general) has always been somewhat of an obsession of mine, and I honestly don't think most computer-drawn maps are all that great. (Sorry--my two coppers--doesn't really answer your question, and I would be interested to see what software people use and how they use it. If I were to go to computerized mapping, I might be inclined to scan hand-drawn stuff, then photo-shop it).
Well, some people like their maps more realistic and practical, and some like their maps less so, yet drenched in computer-generated textures. If you're the former (like myself), you may find my "Guide to RPG Mapmaking" webpage useful.
http://melkot.com/mechanics/map-guide.html
Denis, aka "Maldin"
=====================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness, new spells and magic items, locations, maps, mysteries, game mechanics, and more
I'd love to see a Campaign Workbook write-up with a cartography how-to.
I'd love to see a Campaign Workbook write-up with a cartography how-to.
Amen!
TBH, I think if you sit down and fiddle with Photoshop long enough, you'll figure out yourself how it's done. Some graphic designers may hate me for saying this and it may not be the case for the guys at Paizo, but in my experience GDs just don't give away their knowledge for free.
To get to grips with Photoshop and create half-decent maps doesn't take long to learn at all. After that it's all about saving your work, experimentation and further saving of work.
You could start by doing a simple sketch and scanning it in. Add some colour and some filters and you'll be surpised at the results. It may not be usable but you've learned something so it's time to move on and try more technical things.
What I'm saying is that a lot of these graphics programs are extremely sophisticated and can do a lot of the hard work for you. Just be confident and patient and you soon realise that there is no mystery to creating a good map.
For me, personally, it isn't so much on the graphics programs that are utilized as much as the thought process & inspiration that goes into creating a map. The design process for creating a map is what intrigues me, not necessarily the technical know-how. (The technical know-how I can figure out on my own, and there's a plethora of tutorials, books and classes on graphics software. :-P)
For me, personally, it isn't so much on the graphics programs that are utilized as much as the thought process & inspiration that goes into creating a map. The design process for creating a map is what intrigues me, not necessarily the technical know-how. (The technical know-how I can figure out on my own, and there's a plethora of tutorials, books and classes on graphics software. :-P)
I find real maps a great help here. For instance, get a good book on castles from the library. Look at the designs and ask yourself, if these were in a magical world, what modifications would I have to make? Do that and you have the makings of a fantasy castle.
As for wilderness, well an actual map of an existing coastline or forest can be an excellent inspiration. Visualise your players travelling through that environment and what they might meet. Add those elements and you have what you're looking for. Using a graphics program to finish it off should be easy for you once you've worked your way through all your tutorials and classes. ;)
I'm not published to date, not trying to publish any adventures at this point (but when I do, I'll start with Dungeon, shoot for the apex first, right?) However, I'm a bit of a mapping fiend, and I have noticed a few trends in Dungeon Magazine and the D and D books that WotC has published which i've read so far.
I'm sure that there are several sources used to create the maps used, but the consistent end result does indicate some 'post-work' and I'd like to advance my theories on that. I think that at some point, Campaign Cartographer is used to lay out the maps (since it's the program I use for my mapping, I have recognized a few of its trends and tendencies). I think that Photoshop is probably used for further detailing on the maps. This is all supposition, however.
Regarding the earlier comments about 'how maps are arrived at', as someone who makes a lot of maps, and who collects maps in about any form i can get them, I'd like to comment on how I arrive at my sources.
World maps I love to look at for a 'how did they do that?' kind of thing, but I do use my own campaign world, and when I'm not, I use the established campaign worlds, so sourcemaps there are relatively easy. (My campaign world's world map actually is a bit problematic in some matters, there aren't enough deserts in the right place, and the tectonics are a bit skewed, but since my campaign world also involves forces deliberately altering things on that kind of scale, I have let it slide)
Overland maps are a major source, and for my own, I like to look at real world examples or at well-thought out maps of layouts like i want to work with. I will, however, still make my own from those, I've stopped just taken an existing map and played it as is, unless i'm playing straight from an existing adventure. (This comment applies equally to dungeon level maps)
City maps, I will often use an existing historical map if I can find one as a starting point, but again, I've yet to just transplant one directly without modification into my campaign. When designing a city, you have to think a little about the history and mindset of those who have lived there and who live there now. These thoughts don't just help the city take shape...they practically write it for you sometimes.
Buildings and dungeons. This gets interesting. I actually have used maps of real places, if I can rationalize the layout being viable for the campaign. (In one of my older campaigns, players who were camping out in a sage's complex freaked out when they finally, after several game sessions of repeated visits to this location recognized it as their own apartment building) Normally, however, I will use my imagination based on examples I can encounter. I try to make a building logical, which limits in some ways, but liberates in others.
Underground complexes, you have a bit more flexibility, but still, when possible, if you can be logical in the design, while it takes a bit more work to make, leaves you in the end with a map that is more efficient, and more fun.
Just my two copper pieces worth...
I'm not as big into the useing the computer as i used to be and i've found that my players respond to hand made maps better.
my recipe
items-
coffee(brewed)
graph paper
bakeing sheet
just pour some of the coffie into a bakeing sheet and let the sheet of paper soak in it for a min then ppull it out and let it dry. then draw your map on your new peice of pachment. the paper is wrinkled and discolered. but it's not brittle. you can bun the edges too but just don't over do it or you could burn useful info.
I'm not as big into the useing the computer as i used to be and i've found that my players respond to hand made maps better.
my recipe
items-
coffee(brewed)
graph paper
bakeing sheetjust pour some of the coffie into a bakeing sheet and let the sheet of paper soak in it for a min then ppull it out and let it dry. then draw your map on your new peice of pachment. the paper is wrinkled and discolered. but it's not brittle. you can bun the edges too but just don't over do it or you could burn useful info.
I did something similar with cold tea (I'm English, so go figure). The results were remarkably good.
And yes, you have to be careful when burning the paper!
Maldin--just had a look at your discourse on mapping. It's got lots of good tips, and I largely concur with your critique of much of the mapping efforts we see in various FRPG sources, and the unrealistic elements that come out of fractal mapping algorithms and other such attempts to have computers randomly generate maps. I'm not sure I'll ever shift over from hand drawn maps to computers for my home brew, but now I have a resource if I ever try to do a published adventure or campaign. Thanks for sharing your insights and experience!
Thanks for sharing your insights and experience!
Many thanks, Peruhain!
..but in my experience GDs just don't give away their knowledge for free.
Well, I keep no secrets. But then, I don't do this for a living. ;-) However, being a good graphics designer does not mean you can create half-decent maps, and I've seen my share of "professional" mappers who create pretty (because of all the distracting, fancy computer-generated fills) but utterly unrealistic maps. City maps are almost universally prone to this. In those cases, you don't want them to spill their secrets anyways... unless all you're interested in is how to make a lovely textured and shaded fill.
The basic design of the city is what is going to make a map useful or not, and anybody can learn that (I have alot of pointers on my website), and apply it to whatever graphics program you choose to use... Photoshop, PaintShopPro, Campaign Cartographer 2, CorelDraw, even Paint. Some people have preferences, and some are easier to use or more powerful in features, but deep down, it doesn't really matter that much. Its all about the layout. Especially if you're doing your map for your own campaign, and not for publication.
A realistically designed medieval city layout can really enhance your adventure as the players explore. But do you really care if all your houses have a sweet shingle-texture on the roof, and that you can count the stones on the pathway your PCs will be taking tomorrow night when you're all crowded around the gaming table in the basement?
Oh, and that the wizard's cottage has a very nice shrubbery. Yes! We want a shrubbery! Ni! ;-)
Denis, aka "Maldin"
=====================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness, new spells and magic items, locations, maps, mysteries, game mechanics, and more
Oh, and that the wizard's cottage has a very nice shrubbery. Yes! We want a shrubbery! Ni! ;-)
I'm not as big into the useing the computer as i used to be and i've found that my players respond to hand made maps better.
my recipe
items-
coffee(brewed)
graph paper
bakeing sheetjust pour some of the coffie into a bakeing sheet and let the sheet of paper soak in it for a min then ppull it out and let it dry. then draw your map on your new peice of pachment. the paper is wrinkled and discolered. but it's not brittle. you can bun the edges too but just don't over do it or you could burn useful info.
I used to do similar things when I was younger: burning the edges of the map to give it that certain charred/ancient discovery effect.
Now I brew the coffee, drink it, and go to work! I've always enjoyed creating fantasy maps. I've not yet delved into the technical problems of faults and plate tectonics mentioned above. I'm not sure that such expertise is necessary when designing fantasy settings, although I can understand how it could be intriguing and challenging to work that level of realism in.
I'm big on regional and large-scale, even planetary maps (globe-like images). I'm more imaginative than I am technical, so when it comes down to focusing in on a local area on a regional map, and trying to make it to scale, that's where the challenge comes in! It can be frustrating. I just had a look at a local map I worked on over the holiday break, comparing it now to the larger region, and although I thought I was being careful and diligent at the time about scale, now it looks like things are off a bit. I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on what I think might be called "projections" (?). What I'm thinking of is that zooming in on a localized area of a larger, regional map, and attempting to keep it true to scale and shapes. It seems like a grid technique would be quite useful for something like that, now that I think about it, but creating the appropriate grid would be a technical challenge itself.
Hmmm. Anyone have thoughts, tips, or techniques they'd like to share?
Well, some people like their maps more realistic and practical, and some like their maps less so, yet drenched in computer-generated textures. If you're the former (like myself), you may find my "Guide to RPG Mapmaking" webpage useful.
http://melkot.com/mechanics/map-guide.htmlDenis, aka "Maldin"
=====================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness, new spells and magic items, locations, maps, mysteries, game mechanics, and more
Thanks, Maldin! After taking a look at your page, I think I have come up with an obvious answer to my problem. Rather than attempting to redraw my area maps on hex paper, I think it would be much easier to scan in my original, large region map, then enlarge it/zoom in, overlay an appropriately-sized hex grid, and add details. Voila!
Thanks for the help. :)
I don't get too worked up about the technical details of projections and scales--you could drive yourself nuts doing this, and your players are almost certain not to notice, as long as the distance from the Village of Hommlett to the city of Verbobonc is always two days' travel (or there is a good explanation for why it's changed).
Since we're supposed to be doing medieval fantasy, we can expect that maps won't be overly accurate. No Mercator projections, no way to accurately determine longitude, no trigonometry for accurate surveys, etc. Learned sages might realize the earth is a sphere (if indeed it is). We're used to all the conveniences of modern science, and so we expect our fantasy worlds to be mapped out in extremely accurate detail--but really, all you need is a representation of your earth that gives you a rough idea of the direction and distance from one place to the next and sprinkles the landscape with evocative place-names that you can build adventures around.
Personally, I find the beautiful hand-drawn maps in Tolkien's works much more satisfying, and closer to the standard I aim for, than a computer-drawn map that tells me it's precisely 84.2 miles from village X to city Y. For D&D, maps are there to stimulate the imagination, to find places in our minds, not to navigate a globe that is surveyed down to the millimeter and keyed to a GPS.
I don't get too worked up about the technical details of projections and scales--you could drive yourself nuts doing this, and your players are almost certain not to notice, as long as the distance from the Village of Hommlett to the city of Verbobonc is always two days' travel (or there is a good explanation for why it's changed).
Since we're supposed to be doing medieval fantasy, we can expect that maps won't be overly accurate. No Mercator projections, no way to accurately determine longitude, no trigonometry for accurate surveys, etc. Learned sages might realize the earth is a sphere (if indeed it is). We're used to all the conveniences of modern science, and so we expect our fantasy worlds to be mapped out in extremely accurate detail--but really, all you need is a representation of your earth that gives you a rough idea of the direction and distance from one place to the next and sprinkles the landscape with evocative place-names that you can build adventures around.
Personally, I find the beautiful hand-drawn maps in Tolkien's works much more satisfying, and closer to the standard I aim for, than a computer-drawn map that tells me it's precisely 84.2 miles from village X to city Y. For D&D, maps are there to stimulate the imagination, to find places in our minds, not to navigate a globe that is surveyed down to the millimeter and keyed to a GPS.
All very true.
However, I agree that most In-World maps will be of limited accuracy. The issue for me is that, as a DM, I want an accurate Absolute & Out-of-World map for myself. So far, only tactical maps are that accurate.
Yes. This is my preference, too. I'd like to have a well-drawn, very accurate, nicely scaled map for my own reference. The maps that players get will be different, but hopefully still rather well-drawn. Unless they pick them up from some character with poor artistic skills. ;)
As for issues of Plate Tectonics and "realism" that some other posters have mentioned, I do try to keep such factors in mind as I'm creating world-maps. Tolkien's maps were terrible in this regard, but I also had a Player look at one of my world maps once and comment, "that's some 'interesting' plate tectonics." Sure, I realize my world would never really look the way the map does, but then again this is a fantasy realm where the geography is acted upon by epic characters and...
Again, yes. I see the issue of "but the plate tectonics" are wrong!" as just really anti-fantasy. Plate tectonics do not matter one scrap of an ass in a world that germinates from a seed, has a spongy, cavernous underworld, and is filled with living, life-affirming liquid at its core. This is FANTASY, after all. Real world physics need not apply. Since science is not my forte, and actually kind of irritates me, I just ain't gonna bother with it, yo.
;)
Gall-Peters projection was designed to display the areas of land masses or countries in proportion, which Mercator doesn't do. It was created to correct the subliminal perception conveyed by the Mercator projection that the countries of the northern latitudes (i.e. Europe and North America) are big and important compared to tropical countries like India and the African nations. The Mercator projection, however, remains the projection of choice for navigation, since you can use it to get the correct compass direction from one place to another. And if you want something that shows a large area (but smaller than the entire globe) to scale, there are a number of other projections commonly used in atlases that give you a more accurate view of the shape of a land-mass than either Mercator or Gall-Peters.
The insights that form the field of trigonometry, like many branches of mathematics, accumulated slowly in ancient Egypt, Babylon, Greece and India, and were further developed by the Arabs and Chinese before Europeans got interested in them again about the time of the Renaissance. The use of triangulation for surveying, however, dates to the sixteenth century.
Such sciences might or might not have a place in your game world.
As for divinations to find exact latitude and longitude, again, they could be added to your game, but my own conception of divination magic is something much more vague and intuition-based. Looking at the divination spells in the PH, all of the spells that tell you how to find something are more concerned with pointing out the most direct and practicable route than with giving you exact coordinates or a mathematically precise direction and distance. If travel magic is primarily based on visual familiarity (you have to have seen it to teleport there), why would the greatest and wisest people need a system of mathematically precise surveying? And even if they had recognized it as a theoretical possibility, why would they bother? Maybe rulers would be interested in accurate land surveys (for taxation) and accurate territorial maps (for military purposes), but they wouldn't necessarily have the means to pay for such expensive projects, whether conducted through mundane science or through magical divination.
And, as has been pointed out with regard to plate tectonics and climatology above, fantasy worlds are rarely "realistic" because few of us have the knowledge or inclination to make more than rudimentary bows in the direction of such realism, and because we think of powerful magical forces as altering what would be true for our Earth anyhow. Heck, I've even considered constructing my home-brew campaign world as a flat earth with a transparent dome over it. One might give one's fantasy world a medieval flavor by using a Ptolemaic cosmology rather than a Copernican one. Or whatever.
Regarding the problem of correcting for the distortion on your flat (presumably Mercator Projection) fantasy world map, I'd give you three simple solutions. Either 1) ignore the problem, since your players probably won't think about it, or 2) make your fantasy world flat, or 3) find out how distance varies with latitude on a mercator map, then make a chart, so that for example, all hexes between zero and ten degrees latitude are x miles across (using the scale at 5 degrees latitude), all hexes between ten and twenty degrees latitude are y miles across (using the scale at 15 degrees latitude), and so forth. This will be an approximation, but will be close enough to create an accurate feel for game purposes, even for the most ardent simulationist.
Have you checked out Campaign Cartographer?
Thats what I use for my Adventures and its great !
There are many tutorials on their website as well.
I'd think that since few of us are going to actually put our maps on a globe we can actually ignore the problem with ease. Our maps are accurate because they are made on a flat surface - were we'd likely actually encounter a problem is if we were to decide to make our very on globe of our world - only then would we suddenly face an issue of how to translate our flat maps onto a sphere.
I'd think that since few of us are going to actually put our maps on a globe we can actually ignore the problem with ease. Our maps are accurate because they are made on a flat surface - were we'd likely actually encounter a problem is if we were to decide to make our very on globe of our world - only then would we suddenly face an issue of how to translate our flat maps onto a sphere.
Right, this agrees with either of the first two of my solutions to the problem, which I think is how 99% of us deal with it.
However, I think at least one of the posters above was concerned with this problem, however, not because he wished to construct an actual physical globe, but because he wished for his campaign world to be spherical and was concerned about the distances between points on the map reflecting that in a realistic way. If your flat map represents a mercator projection of your spherical campaign world, then if you travel 1,000 miles due west, turn south and travel 1,000 miles, turn east for 1,000 miles, then head north 1,000 miles, you shouldn't end up where you started. This is because your 1,000 miles of east (at a lower latitude) will correspond to fewer degrees of longitude than your 1,000 miles of west. If the feel of a flat earth would detract from the feeling of verisimilitude for you (and/or your players), then my third solution offered an a way to address the problem by approximation without using trigonometry (since only 10% of the 1% of those of us who care likely remember their high school trig class, if they had one.)
However, I think at least one of the posters above was concerned with this problem, however, not because he wished to construct an actual physical globe, but because he wished for his campaign world to be spherical and was concerned about the distances between points on the map reflecting that in a realistic way. If your flat map represents a mercator projection of your spherical campaign world, then if you travel 1,000 miles due west, turn south and travel 1,000 miles, turn east for 1,000 miles, then head north 1,000 miles, you shouldn't end up where you started. This is because your 1,000 miles of east (at a lower latitude) will correspond to fewer degrees of longitude than your 1,000 miles of west. If the feel of a flat earth would detract from the feeling of verisimilitude for you (and/or your players), then my third solution offered an a way to address the problem by approximation without using trigonometry (since only 10% of the 1% of those of us who care likely remember their high school trig class, if they had one.)
Thing is I'm arguing that our maps are not any kind of projection at all. They are 100% accurate in every way - they represent a perfect projection. This explanation works fine right up until the point where you actually try and put the map onto a globe. Only then do you need to invent some kind of a projection because it won't fit on a sphere - at that moment you need to distort your perfect map. If you don't create a globe then you can presume you have a perfect projection without any consequence.
Agreed--that's how I deal with it in my own campaigns. I've had situations where a long journey spanning hundreds or thousands of miles was undertaken, but it's usually a there and back again sort of affair, or more likely there and teleport home. DM figures out how long it takes, and that's the end of the story. That's what I meant with alternative (1) above. That's what I would recommend to the person who brought up the projection issue. But I offered alternative (3) as a slightly more complicated way to measure distances on a campaign world map (without taking things too far), in the event that he wasn't satisfied with the simplest solution.