For some reason my players always think they can handle mostly anything I throw at them as a DM. Maybe they have enormous egos or it's my style of gaming. Players in my games almost never run away from monsters which leads to lots of PC deaths. This sometimes even results in campaigns where at fifth level, none of the characters from first level are still alive, and it all becomes very unbelievable as you can think.
I try to play by the RAW. However, I do sometimes fudge a roll, but always in favour of the characters, e.g. when they're just out of luck. I thought that it may be something about the way I roleplay the monsters/foes. I get the impression that I play them so evil that the PLAYERS want them dead at any cost. When this happens, their characters handle monsters reckless and many of them die in sometimes heroic but mostly just needless ways. My players seem to be so involved in the game that they forget about the option of running away...
Do some of you have similar problems in your game? What should I change? I seem to have this problem in most of the campaigns I run and I ran several groups with different players.
I've experienced this with my players as well. I have to wonder if the players think that, by being the heroes, the DM won't kill their characters, no matter how foolishly they behave.
I have taken to explaining to my players that, on occasion, they may run into foes that they may not be able to overcome at the present time. "Better to beat feet than be meat," as one sly rogue put it.
Even such reminders go unheeded, occasionally. While I don't mind fudging the occasional die roll to favour the PCs, I do not make it a habit.
Hey!
Really I have the complete opposite problem! Which is weird since I'm a really nice and easy going DM; we've had just 2 deaths (one deserved - an a$$ of a player who's not with us any more) in the last FIVE years.
Hmm...
Perhaps that's why though; the players are nervous with their characters and so last longer.
I know I'd be careful if I was an adventurer. Suffering flash backs to the horrors of losing one of our group in that cellar, to rats back at first level...
YOU DON'T KNOW MAN! YOU WEREN'T THERE!
;P
Peace,
tfad
If you think of it this way, it is just a game and the consequences of loosing a character is having to make a new one. To be honest if I loose a character I can get really upset. But I will take risks with the characters life I would never do with my own, only because it would be cool. So if your players are coming back and having fun, then that is what is really important. As long as you are having fun.
As for fudging the dice in favor of the players, I may be paranoid, but I believe they do enough of that when they can. So I don't do fudge dice either way. As a fault I have ruled against the dice results to save unlucky PCs. But I think to let a PC die from plane bad luck is a mark of a good DM (I think it is a tough thing to do, as a DM I secretly cheer the PCs on).
So if your players are coming back and having fun, then that is what is really important. As long as you are having fun.
This is true and we are having fun. However, I find it hard to follow the characters' longtime motivations and goals. It becomes an impossible task to place information and clues about the future development of the campaing world in the minds of the characters when these characters won't live long enough to tell anyone or even write it down. There is also the problem that character development becomes ridiculous. Why give Bob the Fighter depth and flesh him out when he'll be dead soon anyway?
It seems you are interested in crafting a world where character background and story development are important. Go for it, says I. These kind of campaigns can be very rewarding, the kind player will talk about for years. However, the problem your players have is a common one. Most players will assume that the challenges you place in their path are indeed surmountable at their current level. Gentle hinting on your part seems to not be working as you have already told them that it might be best to run from encounters instead of fighting to the bitter end. You might consider toning down the power of your encounters or run a game with less of a combat focus. Give the players plenty of opportunity to pursue personal goals and agendas. Design campaings arround their backgrounds and let them carry the plot. Very few players will pass up this kind of opportunity.
Good luck with the rest of your games!
Seems to be a common disease among players. Believe me, it happens in almost every campaign I run as well. I outright told a player above board that he was going to get his character killed if he kept putting himself too far behind or in front of the rest of his party. Did he listen to me? Nope. And now that character is dead. Did I purposely kill the character? No. But I knew what was waiting for the party up ahead and even told them all "this is going to be a tough encounter."
It's seems that even when we as DMs give the players a priceless piece of information on a silver platter, they seem to think the tips are just so much wind blowing in the room.
There's nothing you can do, but hope the players learn their lessons no matter how many times it takes.
Hmm...I find my players yo-yo a lot in this regard. They make a level and collect are their cool new abilities and they start to think they can kick ass and chew bubble gum. I find this os especially true when the player has had a chance to use whatever their signiture abilities are. If the character is designed with a phenominal armour class and its as if no one can even hit him in the last three fights its easy to forget that this won't always save you. A couple of easy encounters (and a great many adventures start off easy and get harder) and they really buy into this - once they end up over their head it may be too late.
All that said killing a character tends to really reverse this in my game. Anyone who has lost a character in the last few sessions is usually much more conservative.
Something else I really noticed is that character death is something of a personality trait. I have players that lose their characters relitivly often and a few players that almost never loose their characters. Since I never fudge I die its often pretty clear that the ones with the characters that don't die are usually the ones making the most optimium choices - they also rarely make a really risky move - like running away into unknown parts of the dungeon etc. In other words they seem to always keep one eye on their escape route and usually have put thought into escaping - Things like taking abilities that increase ones speed for example instead of the power that does more damage.
If your looking for reason why this happens, I can give you a few.
1) Video game mentality, in video games you die and reload at a save point. Bye the way I have Oblivion for xbox 360 and it is outstanding. I have died quite a few time and run away even more.
2) Players don't want to be cautious in DnD. DnD is an escape from reality for many people. They don't want to be careful (as in real life) they want to be reckless.
3) If they are familiar with 3rd edition rules they feel that any fight should be scaled for them to succeed.
4) Another problem is players begin to feel their characters are the center of the universe. This happens if problems don't occur until they arrive on the scene. This can lead to cocky and condescending play.
5) Fudging dice rolls in favor of the party can result in them alway expecting this from the DM.
6) Not having any penalty for death. If you bring a new character in at the same level why not take a chance to get extra xp in a fight they may lose.
7) Allowing players to chose magic items for a new character. When you create a character at medium to high level you can maximize the character with Prestige classes and magic items. We have the computer randomly generate magic for new characters.
These are a few ideas to think about.
As I think one of Monte Cook's magazine articles suggested, D&D is a blend of two disciplines.
If your players prefer the emphasis on the former, as might be called "traditional D&D", then you must place emphasis on the rules in order to give victories meaning. If the players think you're bending the rules for them so that they can't lose, winning loses meaning and the game becomes boring. It also makes them a poor judge of what exactly is too powerful for them.
Players have a certain unstated expectation that the majority of what they encounter will be within their ability to defeat, and that when something is clearly out of their league, they'll realise it. Perhaps only one encounter in twenty should be this powerful. When the PCs do encounter something too tough, they're still in the mindset of "this is a challenge, I must defeat it to continue".
You must position it such that they either know when they see it that they can't feasibly challenge it (from hearing stories of how powerful it is, or from finding a weaker version of the monster very tough, etc), or else, make it clear somehow that the challenge is to evade it.
I think I've been fairly lucky with players so far. No one is so cocky that they end up making me want to teach them a lesson. Playing the Age of Worms adventure path, I do fudge in favor of the characters at times because I feel like characterization and the cinematic feel of the path is important; having 1st level characters from a podunk mining town get to 20th level is what this game is really about. That being said, they hit the negatives fairly often and the threat of death is there. I try to steer character death into dramatic moments, like facing the big bad evil guy in a climactic encounter. That way it will mean something and fuel the excitement of the scene. Plus, these are tough encounters designed for six characters and I have four and a cohort. So I feel like I'm balancing things out.
I've a suggestion, if you're looking to curb the death rate in your campaign.
Don't kill the characters.
It may sound cheeky, but I'm being serious. And there's a number of ways I can think of to go about this practice, some of which penalize the characters, and some bearing more penalty than others.
1) Left for dead - Whoever, or whatever the characters went up against was satisfied with curb stomping them and leaving them for dead. This works best if they happen to be somewhere there's a reasonable chance of being found and healed. They still have all their gear, but for whatever reason the bad guy wasn't interested in making sure they were dead.
2) Left for dead, and looted - As above, but their enemy decides to claim the spoils of his victory. The party ends up alive, but now they probably want revenge (a further motivation for them to stay alive), and they have to spend a few adventures dungeon delving just to replace what they've lost.
3) Imprisoned - For whatever reason, the party wakes up without any of their possessions, or even their freedom. They might be locked away in a dungeon until they waste away or enslaved in some work camp (where they might learn of some nefarious plot), but the next adventure has only one goal: Escape.
4) Put to Task - Great if they fall to some sort of spellcaster (or someone with a powerful spellcaster they can call on), the party finds themselves under the sway of a powerful Geas to perform some service for their enemy. More than likely, it'll be something nefarious, but surely they can find a way to bring the bad guy down along the way, right?**
I think you buy yourself a couple things with these methods. First, your players have more time, and some 'rough spots' at that, to come to value their characters. Also, /you/ have more options as a DM open to you as a price for failure. Sure, death is often an inevitable consequence of danger. But there are far more interesting (and nefarious) things to do to the characters of cocky players.
** There are two spells in the Heroes of Horror setting that offer intriguing options for the Geas stuff. Oath of Blood, which you cast on someone who's been subjected to a Geas, animates them as an undead to fullfill the terms of the Geas if they die along the way. There's also Familial Geas, which transfers the burden to a relative; so if the party all die off trying to fullfill the Geas, you can start a new party who are all relatives of the last party.
yep; I too have had this problem from time to time; some pc thing there ego armor is invulnerable, but it is only in their heads. here is what i recommend; there are fates worse than death; pc's will continue to blindly try to hack and smash any villain you throw at them until you introduce them to the fate worse than death. Instead of having them roll up new characters; dont stop the story at death; you can play a after death campaign; ie; now your campaign is finding or fighting your way to the afterworld; or pcs spirits sent on a mission to get entrance to the final world; or heck; bad guys turn them into undead (got Liber Mortis?) or villians capture them; heal them; return them to health to mock and cajole them; release them to try again (have the villain plant a bunch of information around about them so when they walk into taverns and shops people snicker behind there hands and such) have the villain hold them captive; hard labor or something and try to get ransom from friends and the pc's family; have dad come by and say; we're saving up to get you out of here son, but life has been hard and mom rhumatism is acting up; you sure you cant work something out?, or have the villain patch them up and convince them to destroy some of his enemies that are enemies common to the pc's ie in bed with the villain; have the villain convince the pc's he is not really a bad guy after all he restored them and all is forgiven; ie villian looking for good pr and adding levels of duplicity or have the villain trade the pcs to another villian; ie kinda like slaves and property and have that villain try to work out a deal with them. Expose the captured pcs to the enormity and fiendishness ie and hopelessness of the villians network and let them escape ie adventurous escape letting some of the villians bad guy henchman turn a blind eye as they are not WORTH recapturing. I am sure you can think of others but this might help.
Why give Bob the Fighter depth and flesh him out when he'll be dead soon anyway?
::coughs:: i resemble that remark... ok i'm kidding but thats how my iconic Character started generic beacuse i had no idea what to do. I was ready for a hack and slash till i found out what i wanted to play. I've been playing him for over 2 years now i worked out his history later once i had desire to keep him alive. what we do is when we have a tpk whatever campaign we are on is over and we go to somthing else. it gives us drive to find the end of the adventure and stay alive. at low levels we limit avaible healing to keep us on our toes. no scrolls no potions to buy usually at double ot triple price but never could we buy them and 1-3rd level. It put stress on us as players and with me runnign the game as well. It keeps my guys coming because they actualyl get a challenge so many near deaths is great. to put it simply BE EVIL! if they keep ruing your plot don't write one put them in hack and slash till they complain and them talk to them about why you are doing it or skip that and just talk to them about your style of play.
I've got a power-gamer in my group that relishes bravado.
"You better bring it tonight!"
"Are you playing, because I'm not!"
"I got it handled."
Some of his more common lines 2 hours before gametime....
He has fun with it. I think they all have fun with it. Ultimately its just a game, and I think that we as players/DMs, trust each other to provide a challenge without being to easy or too deadly.
Even I talk a little smack during the game. If I roll out with some 20's - you'll hear about it. You didn't make that save against my Destruction spell? "Ooops!" (sly smile creeps across my face)
While Thanis may deny this, more often this not the DM's I have had will fudge in your favor. If the monster rolled low on his attack and we are having a hard time with the encounter the monster will "fumble" and drop his weapon, giving us a chance.
And sometimes when we roll well our attack might of sliced an arm off our enemy, effectly lowering it's number of attacks.
But if we are completely stomping monsters, sometimes the HP will get bumped up a bit some the fight lasts a few rounds. I know, I helped build an NPC once that we wanted to make sure (we had a semi-high powered group at the time) would at least live for 3-4 rounds.
I get pinned personally with the label of not having a big enough ego with some of my charaters. Sometimes Thanis will remind me that my charater is almost epic and I can take a few risks.
One DM I had was very kind, and gave our charaters chances at being resurrected. However we also had to do the work to make sure the diamonds where avaible, and since we played savage charaters we looted everything, down to their 1 cp belt that we could sell at the leather shop and the throne from a room... *laughs* So if you find your death rate is too high, prehaps offer them a chance to be brought back. Make it a quest for the currently alive charaters to bring back their comrade. To keep the dead player busy, if they have a familiar that is still alive, they can role play that, or hand over temporaily an NPC who is helping with the quest... there's alot of ideas for keeping Mr. Dead entertained and happy.
I got quite a kick personally from watching Thanis' charater try to figure out what to do when I failed my save for Flesh to Stone with my half-fey. It was fun sitting back for awhile and realizing just how much my charater made a difference in battles. Not only that, but I think he role played his "daughter" becoming a statue well...
I can't help but think maybe a lot of this advice has it exactly backward!
If you think about fantasy fiction, there isn't a lot of running away. Being forced to run makes characters feel like they're wimps. Nobody wants to feel like that. Likewise if they keep dying all the time, the players don't have time to get attached to their characters in meaningful ways.
I'd say don't run them against tough opponents. Keep the adversaries low CR, and lowball hit points etc. for enemies. I think maybe if the characters get to chew their way through a lot of enemies and get some real glory stories--they'll care more about their characters and stories and then may be more inclined to take the "better part of valor" option occasionally. Still running away is hardly fun, so maybe its better they want to fight to the death, but just make it less likely they'll have to.
Wow, thanks everyone for contributing to this thread! I will try to sum up the suggestions on how to lower my characters‘ death rate. Sorry if I missed some:
WHAT TO DO AGAINST A TOO HIGH AND UNHEALTHY DEATH RATE IN YOUR CAMPAGIN:
1. Tone down the power of the encounters
2. Don‘t run the characters against tough opponents
3. Run a game with less of a combat focus
4. Make it clear to players when they are confronted with a challenge that they can‘t possibly survive the encounter and that it is to evade
5. Try to steer character deaths into dramatic moments
6. Don‘t stop the story at death: play an after death Campaign/enemies turn the characters into undead or release them to try again/let the enemies capture them
7. Be evil - put them in hack n‘ slash till your players complain, then talk to them
8. Offer the characters a chance to be brought back. Make this an exciting quest
9. Simply don‘t kill the characters
and, of course (not really a suggestion but worth mentioning):
10. There's nothing you can do, but hope the players will learn their lessons no matter how many times it takes
I will probably try a combination of most of them in my current SCAP campaign. First of all, toning the encounters down may be necessary at times. I will continue to run them against tough opponents but I will try to make it clearer to them when an encounter is just too tough. I always tried to make character deaths as dramatic as possible, so I will keep to this policy. I am evil, of course (I'm the DM). Giving the characters a chance to be brought back at low levels is difficult but I will try to give them opportunities.
Something I thought of was to only ever fudge a roll - always in favour of the PC - when the situation seems unfair for the affected character and I feel he/she wasn't warned appropriately. This hopefully will teach them something if they should die. Oh, don't get me wrong: I really don't fudge rolls very often (but being allowed to do so in the DM guide makes things easier).
Finally, I will bring in more players. We used to play with three to five players, averaging at about 3.5 players per session. I just invited another three guys for the next weekend and can't wait for the session, in which the empowered group will meet Kazmojen. And possibly their grizzly ends...
THANKS AGAIN FOR THE HELP, I LOVE THIS SITE.
You may also want to consider less monsters, and more traps.
Players can fall into a cycle of fight, heal, loot, and camp, when fighting encounter after encounter of monsters, But a few well placed traps and/or cursed items can break the cycle and also lead to some good roleplaying experiences.
Also there are fates worse then death. Instead of having a mob coup de grace a PC, have them captured for slavery or food. A fighter or mage seeing their favorite weapon, or spellbook sent "to da boss" often is more upsetting then rerolling a character.
A siege is always good. Sometimes you can't sleep because you don't know when the next attack is coming.
For example...
I had a Zhentarim fleet lay waste to Suzail. One of their operatives was a sorcerer with a thing for fire. Sorcerer also happened to have a five-headed pyrohydra as a "pet." The Citadel of the Purple Dragons didn't fare too well, though, as the pyrohydra and the sorcerer got to it before the characters could stop them.
Neat story aside, the players had to work out some tactics to defend the city while trying to figure out how to assault the fleet itself.
Definitely try changing up how your players are "used to" doing things. Setting a time limit for the characters to complete something is a good way to create tension and excitement, or somehow negating a bonus that the characters might have. Don't be too obvious on negating the bonus, though, or the players might suspect "something is up."
A fighter or mage seeing their favorite weapon, or spellbook sent "to da boss" often is more upsetting then rerolling a character.
They did this in Dragons of Autumn Twilight. The party was all captured and put into slave carts to be taken to Pax Tharkas, as well as all their weapons, armor and spellbooks. Just reading that, I pitied the party.