The Devils and Demons aspect has always been something that has been a main draw for many AD&D players, despite TSR caving in to fanatical religous groups for 2nd Edition.
I recently got The Book of Vile Darkness, and was pleased to find stats and descriptions for most of my all time bad-guys.
However, it seems I'm missing some info. Baalzebul turned into a slug, for his part in trying to usurp the top-man himself Asmodeus, and when and what exactaly occurred into this attempted usurping?
Big, fat Orcus died? But has come back meaner and leaner and eagre for revenge. When, and what happened?
And exactly how do all the top demonlords and Archdevils find time to conduct an infinite sized war, whilst at the same time conducting their own power struggles?
Has there ever been a publicised account of all these goings on? Or can anyone please help me fill in the blanks.
Oh and what happened to my all time favourite Demonlord; Kostchtchie? I loved that guy, and as one of Grazzt's chief underling you would have thought there would have been some mention of him in The Book of Vile Darkness.
Most of these happenings occurred in the Planescape setting 2nd edition.
1)planescape
2)Dead Gods
3)The blood war is run by the Dark Eight of the devils and any demons wanting to fight by the demons. The LordS would only become involved if it spilled out onto their plane.
4)Kostchtie is going to be in the upcoming "Fiendish Codex" as well as the other demon lords. I have heard they are going to be more on par with demigods and lesser dieties, or at least explain why they are not subservient to them. It is written by James Jacobs and Erik Mona. I believe it will be out in June. You can preorder it at amazon. This is my top book of the year. I have alot of faith in those two designers. Don't miss out!
I just have to throw in there on the aspect of "how do they wage this hug war and still have time to pursue their own ends?", I personally don't like the thought of "infinite" planes- why wouldn't they have overwhelemed the Material by now? I know this can be argued back and forth, and it almost never comes up, but basically, as far as description goes, in my campaigns, I make the planes only the size of a few huge continents, not infinite. Much better internal consistancy! Why in the world do I waste time thinking about these things?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I just have to throw in there on the aspect of "how do they wage this hug war and still have time to pursue their own ends?", I personally don't like the thought of "infinite" planes- why wouldn't they have overwhelemed the Material by now? I know this can be argued back and forth, and it almost never comes up, but basically, as far as description goes, in my campaigns, I make the planes only the size of a few huge continents, not infinite. Much better internal consistancy! Why in the world do I waste time thinking about these things?
The other way to go would be to make the material plane infinite as well. The denizens of the outer planes do take their fights to the material plane, it's just that your campaign world isn't one of the primary focuses of that war.
I've always toyed with the idea of running a post-apocalyptic D&D game after the outer planes have invaded. I even set up a campaign for that purpose when I first started running 3e. I kept dropping hints to the players that the world was going to end and that all sorts of apocalyptic cults were on the rise. They figured the campaign was about stopping the apocalypse, not surviving its aftermath.
Then they ended up really liking the campaign world and got attached to it, so I chickened out and didn't pull the trigger.
But someday...
Then they ended up really liking the campaign world and got attached to it, so I chickened out and didn't pull the trigger.
Man, that's the BEST time to do something like that..."This is OUR damn world, and we ain't gonna let no two-bit wanna-be demons with no souls take over OUR world!"
It's fun getting players riled up. The things they will do....(I had a plot line where the character's favorite bartender got kidnapped. MAN, they got pissed!)
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I've always toyed with the idea of running a post-apocalyptic D&D game after the outer planes have invaded. I even set up a campaign for that purpose when I first started running 3e. I kept dropping hints to the players that the world was going to end and that all sorts of apocalyptic cults were on the rise. They figured the campaign was about stopping the apocalypse, not surviving its aftermath.
Then they ended up really liking the campaign world and got attached to it, so I chickened out and didn't pull the trigger.
But someday...
In that general line of reasoning, I think a post-apocalyptic campaign is a great setting for D&D, and it allows a direct crossover of the lower and any remaining upper planes onto the Material Plane with no necessary explanation to their involvement on said plane. I'm taking a slightly different route, and planning my next campaign in the end of time written about in Lords of Madness, where the mind flayers control both the surface and Underdark and humanoids have been hunted (or farmed) to the brink of extinction, now living in near-primitive isolated communities. But the same general ambience can be had with any number of bad guys as the aggressors, and I think this kind of desperation is just another tool to drive great roleplaying. The Age of Worms, or its aftermath, would also be a great stomping ground for a new campaign, after Kyuss has ascended to godhood and the unsuccessful heroes who tried to stop him lie crushed underfoot.
I've always wanted to run a post-Ragnarok campaign. :-D The time when the wolves have swallowed the sun, Fenrir gapes his jaws to encircle the earth, when the dead are awakened in Hel, when the World Serpent has awakened from his watery lair in the sea, when the giants of Jotunheim will sail in a ship made from the nails of dead men toward Bifrost.
Sooooo many ideas for a post-Ragnarok campaign....
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The world I'm currently toying with is essentially a post-apocalyptic world. It is going to have a single moon that cracked in half (with different explanations why from each religion) and caused all kinds of havoc. Now, however many years later (maybe a decade or 5, maybe 1000 years) civilizations are regaining strength. There'll be lots of cults of both demon and devil worshippers, all of whom are trying to gain power.
I was even thinking of having a major church based on the worship of all the archdevils as a single group. There would be a faction for each archdevil, the leaders of which sat on a ruling council. The absolute authority in the church would be someone possessed by a powerful servant of Asmodeus.
I've also heard that Kostchtie is going to be given the 'Demonomicon of Iggwilv' treatment pretty soon in Dragon Magazine.
it does seem likely. keep an eye out for Dragon #345. :)
It's fun getting players riled up. The things they will do....(I had a plot line where the character's favorite bartender got kidnapped. MAN, they got pissed!)
Kidnap my favorite bartendar and I'll get pissed.
Lilith is right, threaten something the PC love, get thier emotions going and your game is gonna rock.
P>S> Thanks for the plot idea.
Why in the world do I waste time thinking about these things?
I ask myself this all the time. When you got an answer let me know?
I just have to throw in there on the aspect of "how do they wage this hug war and still have time to pursue their own ends?", I personally don't like the thought of "infinite" planes- why wouldn't they have overwhelemed the Material by now? I know this can be argued back and forth, and it almost never comes up, but basically, as far as description goes, in my campaigns, I make the planes only the size of a few huge continents, not infinite. Much better internal consistancy! Why in the world do I waste time thinking about these things?
In the end, it's belief that counts. Not all places on an infinite plane are equally important. The big sites (such as the tower of Dispater in Dis, or the breeding stone on Limbo are teeming with baatezu, or slaad, or whatever creature happens to teem there. For the biggest part, that infinite plane consists of nothing interesting, so there are almost no creatures there either.
Another consideration: outsiders are born from the souls of mortals, right? The amount of mortals, even if you consider every mortal to have ever lived, is finite. It's probably a very big number, but it *isn't* infinte. So how can a finite source of souls ever produce an infinte number of outsiders?
The answer is that it can't. But those pesky baatezu probably want you to think they are. Because in the end, it's belief that counts.
Another consideration: outsiders are born from the souls of mortals, right?
Are they? I can't remember reading a source that said explicitly so, even if I've always assumed this is the fact of the outer planes. As to the supposedly infinate size of the planes and number of outsiders, I love the idea that they are actually infinate. I imagine that while some outsiders are made from the souls of mortals, others are born the old fashioned way. Just because pit fiends are big and ugly doesn't mean that there can't be pit fiend wives! For my idea of infinate planes, I just go with the assumption that all planes (except Demi-) are infinate just like the Prime Material is.
TS
Some very thought provoking points raised so far, some of which had not entered my chain of thought.
If we are speaking in terms of infintite numbers (both demon and devil) and also supposing that they are of equal power, does this propose the concept that infinte cancels out infinte?
Therefore rendering an eternal stalement in the Blood War? Can anyone draw any light as to the official stance of which evil is currently holding the advantage?
If not then I think we would have to look at alignment to figure out which side is predisposed to having the upper hand, so to speak.
Now initially I would suggest that the Lawful Evil Devils would hold dominance. Just because of the simple fact that they are organised.
However, the more I theorise, the more I actually think that the Choatic Evil demons may have the edge.
Why? Well if you imagine say a great Devil, with his cast intelligence (far beyond the simple ken of mankind), and let's say this general has to surmise a battle plan. He would have to try and compute the nigh-infinite possibilities of his choatic counterpart. Thus granting a limit to his available options.
Or would the simple dynamics of a chaotic order be so unorganised that it would cancel out the deliberations of the lawful counterpart?
Oh no.... My head is starting to hurt thinking about this! Please help!
I suspect its more or less a draw - But we do know that the Demons outnumber the Devils badly but are not as effective at marshaling their forces.
Another consideration: outsiders are born from the souls of mortals, right?Are they? I can't remember reading a source that said explicitly so, even if I've always assumed this is the fact of the outer planes. As to the supposedly infinate size of the planes and number of outsiders, I love the idea that they are actually infinate. I imagine that while some outsiders are made from the souls of mortals, others are born the old fashioned way. Just because pit fiends are big and ugly doesn't mean that there can't be pit fiend wives! For my idea of infinate planes, I just go with the assumption that all planes (except Demi-) are infinate just like the Prime Material is.
TS
Manes and such are created from lowly souls. I kind of doubt most Demons, Devils and Angels procreate the old fashioned way but I guess we know that Sucubi and such certianly are capable of procreating and concieving - Thats were the Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends come from. I always more or less assumed that some demons and devils could procreate with mortals of varous kinds but were not particualrly capable of procreating among themselves - unless it was part of some fiendish plot to lure the souls of mortals into their nefarious clutches. In other words they can procreate with mortals in part because they can get themselves a mortals soul in this manner but in the end they need souls in order to make more fiends - I'd say the same was true among Angels as well - they need souls and the souls come from mortals.
Of course none of the above is actually cannon - its my own interpretation of what little I have seen from cannon on the topic.
As Planescape explained it, in the official D&D cosmology, it happens as follows. The souls of evil mortals who don't have a strong enough tie to a deity or philosophy to become a petitioner or undead, wind up on the Gray Waste as larvae. These are then taken by baatezu and tanar'ri to be turned into lemures and manes. The lemures and manes with promising qualities are turned into actually sentient lesser devils and demons, and from there they have a chance to work up the heirarchy. The night hags that roam the gray waste tend the most choice, prize herds of larvae, the ones most likely to produce exceptional fiends with a hope of advancement.
The various demons and other outsiders frequently mate with mortals, producing half-fiends, half-celestials, etc, but they don't generally seem capable of mating with each other. An exception would seem to be yugoloths, who as far as I can tell don't draw from souls to fill their ranks, unless I missed something.
Obviously in your own campaign world, if you don't use the official cosmology, you can come up with whatever explanation you feel like. But bear in mind that just because a plane is infinite doesn't mean that its inhabitants are infinite. Heck, 99.999% of any given plane is probably mostly uninhabitable - look at outer space ("wildspace"), the dominant location in the Prime Material Plane.