We use the Expanded Psionics Handbook in our game, and by using the variant (Psionics is different)rules it made for a quick TPK. Between having enough time to cast the displacement spell, and some well placed mindblasts it made for a quick battle with some very frustrated gamers.For the way that I read the variant rule spell immunity would not work against the Mindblast. I personally think that dungeon should have had some type of side bar for those who play with the Psionics Handbook to take this into consideration.
With that said its an excellent super module.
(P.S. The advanced Monster CR in the Monster Manual on page 293 deals with Associated & nonassociated class levels. Well I find this to be very unbalanced for this rule pertains to monsters with extra levels but not to PC's or NPC's. So how can one creature from the monster class that has A CR of 8 and Adds 7 more levels have a Cr of 11. While an NPC (Human) that is an 8th level fighter, 7th level sorcerer have a CR of 15 for they still are nonassociated class levels. I know as a PC which character I want to fight for my Experience.)
Is this the ACL?
For me there is just the CR.
If it does not include character levels it is inaccurate.
Can you add 1 CR for each 2 levels?
I just ignore it on the figure cards because I do not understand it.
With a high enough will save and lucky (not cheating) dice
a character can survive the mind blast.
I generally assume the 2 energys are different unless the power
description refers to a spell.
A flayer's mind blast seems to be the only stun that lasts
more than 1 round.
For the way that I read the variant rule spell immunity would not work against the Mindblast. I personally think that dungeon should have had some type of side bar for those who play with the Psionics Handbook to take this into consideration.
With that said its an excellent super module.
(P.S. The advanced Monster CR in the Monster Manual on page 293 deals with Associated & nonassociated class levels. Well I find this to be very unbalanced for this rule pertains to monsters with extra levels but not to PC's or NPC's. So how can one creature from the monster class that has A CR of 8 and Adds 7 more levels have a Cr of 11. While an NPC (Human) that is an 8th level fighter, 7th level sorcerer have a CR of 15 for they still are nonassociated class levels. I know as a PC which character I want to fight for my Experience.)
Frankly, you should have known that Zyrxog would be a really difficult encounter if you were using the "psionics is different" rule. Dungeon defaults to "psionics is similar" because it is simpler that way, and CRs do not have to be adjusted.
Remember that this is an optional method of dealing with psionics, one that should be embraced only by a DM willing to do additional preparation between games to ensure balance.
This variant takes up a single page (well, two columns, anyway), but this is the most important statement in it.
In order for Dungeon to have taken into account a variant rule like this, they would have had to put in all sorts of anti-psionic items early in the campaign, which would have thrown everybody off, thinking that this was a psionics campaign, which it isn't. Players would have made choices which, in the end, would have made them unhappy, and they'd have items that, due to use of the "psionics is different" variant, would be of completely no use to them once they'd beaten Zyrxog.
As for your other issue, you have to keep in mind that CR is vastly different than character level (or effective character level, which is again a different beast). Yes, at higher CR, nonassociated class levels can seem to be unbalanced. If an encounter really seems off to you, as the DM, you have the power to change that. But that's the official ruling for the game, and Dungeon can't vary from that.
Before you drop that rule completely, though, take a look at, say, Frost Giants. Make yourself 2 giants, one with 10 levels in Barbarian, and one with 10 levels in wizard. Compare them with the rules as written, and see for yourself if they are an equal challenge. You should be able to see why that rule was written, especially if you keep in mind that in any round, a creature can fight, or cast spells, but not both (unless they've got levels in one of those PrCs, or quickened spells, of course...).
TK
We use the Expanded Psionics Handbook in our game, and by using the variant (Psionics is different)rules it made for a quick TPK. Between having enough time to cast the displacement spell, and some well placed mindblasts it made for a quick battle with some very frustrated gamers.For the way that I read the variant rule spell immunity would not work against the Mindblast. I personally think that dungeon should have had some type of side bar for those who play with the Psionics Handbook to take this into consideration.
With that said its an excellent super module.
(P.S. The advanced Monster CR in the Monster Manual on page 293 deals with Associated & nonassociated class levels. Well I find this to be very unbalanced for this rule pertains to monsters with extra levels but not to PC's or NPC's. So how can one creature from the monster class that has A CR of 8 and Adds 7 more levels have a Cr of 11. While an NPC (Human) that is an 8th level fighter, 7th level sorcerer have a CR of 15 for they still are nonassociated class levels. I know as a PC which character I want to fight for my Experience.)
It was acknowledged in an earlier thread by either Mr. Mona or Mr. Jacobs that if you're using psionics with Xyrxog it will make for an entirely different encounter and one that the PCs may be ill-equipped to handle. As an earlier response pointed out, though, if you're using that variant rule than you'll want to tweak a lot of stuff along the way, particularly treasure, but that may leave the PCs ultimately unhappy because it'll be of precious little use through the rest of the Adventure Path.
The nonassociated levels were also addressed in an earlier thread, which I can't find now. It's not as obvious a balancing factor with the illithid sorceror but if you look at a Frost Giant sorceror, then it illustrates the balance: it he's using his giant strength to beat on you then he isn't casting spells and vice versa so nonassociated levels don't beef up a critter as much as they would an NPC.
Maybe I should have taken a little more time to explain our situation.When we play we incorporate psionics into our campaign. With that said I understand extra work must go into the campaign for it to flow properly. First off we are using 6 PC's in our party and of those 6 Pc's 3 have psionic classes(Psychic Warrior,Psychic Rogue & Cerebremancer). Secondly we play in the FR so while in Waterdeep they are free to buy any type of items, psionic ones included. The problem was when the player using the Cleric, investigated into dealing with a Mind Flayer, he didn't prepare properly after knowing we played with the variant rule. He bought spell immunity scrolls which don't work with the variant rule. He could have instead had memorized Owl's Wisdom for a +2 to their saves. There is also lots of talk that the DC for the Mind Blast should be 20 not 23 which also would make for a significant difference during game play. The only other matter I would like to point out is when dealing with Psionics vs Spells we decided to be able to have the same spell or psionic that would affect the other with a similar affect but at a higher level. Here is an example(the 4th level spell immunity cast by a cleric would have a 5th level variant called psionic immunity)this goes with the variant rules in the psionic handbook.
As for the nonassociated rules and each of the Frost Giants that you spoke of above. If each of the giants from the MM add the 10 levels (one being sorcerer the other fighter)that you talk about and the sorcerer has the proper fire shield and displacement up (just using the abilities given to it with the sorcerer class)the battle becomes much closer.There just seems to be many complaints about that rule, and so I'm was just interested in any other ideas that are out there.
IMC I use a "psionics is different when I want it to be different and similar when I want it to be similar" rule. My players don't know this of course and therefore it doesn't matter. I just tell them to roll a caster level check, I don't tell them it's against SR, PR, or even if it is something different entirely. If the spell fails I tell them the magic washes over the creature ineffectively and they are left wondering why unless they have a good knowledge check.
Incidentally, it's my opinion (based on core rules) that hit dice from class levels don't count towards improving the DC of monster special abilities like mind blast. In that respect, Zyrxog's mind blast is improperly calculated as written. Of course if you didn't realize that and made him a Psion3 instead, his mind blast DC was still lower than it would have been had you used the sorcerer version.
IMC I use a "psionics is different when I want it to be different and similar when I want it to be similar" rule.
IMC, I use magic-psionics transparency, with the exception of divination spells, which can't detect magic, and clairsentience, visa versa.
The nonassociated levels were also addressed in an earlier thread, which I can't find now. It's not as obvious a balancing factor with the illithid sorceror but if you look at a Frost Giant sorceror, then it illustrates the balance: it he's using his giant strength to beat on you then he isn't casting spells and vice versa so nonassociated levels don't beef up a critter as much as they...
His point is still valid. A 10th-level human Fighter with 10 levels of Sorcerer is still a CR 20, as is a 10th-level human Fighter with 10 levels of Barbarian. How is that any different than a monster with class levels? A rose is a rose is a rose, but not a CR, apparently.
His point is still valid. A 10th-level human Fighter with 10 levels of Sorcerer is still a CR 20, as is a 10th-level human Fighter with 10 levels of Barbarian. How is that any different than a monster with class levels? A rose is a rose is a rose, but not a CR, apparently.
Essentially consider a party of 4 15th level adventurers. When facing a Giant with 10 levels of Spell Caster they are basically coming up against a sub par caster (they presumably have a 15th level mage and Cleric of their own). This guy can be more dangerous if he has time to prep with fire shield etc. and I guess he can then be a farly nasty giant with augumentation from spells - but the parties 15th level mage can always cast dispel magic on him and he'll very likely loose most of those preped defences and be farly easy to take down by the rest of teh characters.
Now our Giant with 10 levels of Barbarian does not have spells but he's still generally a much more dangerous encounter - he'll have an ungodly number of hit points a BAB through the roof, tons of attacks per round each of which does some obscene amounts of damage.
Basically speaking 10 levels of fighter or Barbarian plays to the Giants strengths - its basically a really potent slugger and adding 10 more levels of slugger just makes it that much more deadly at what it does best - dish out the punishment. 10 levels of spell caster divides its focus - its now a sub par slugger (compared to the likely power of the PCs) and a sub par mage (again considering that the PCs have even more powerful spell casters if they are coming up against an encounter with this CR).