Hi all,
In preparation of the Encounter with Zyrxog (HoHR), I have a couple of issues I'd like to have the help of the Messageboarders with.
My main worry is that the DC for his Mind Blast ability is quite high (DC 23) and that my players will likely end up like a bunch of standing vegetables, waiting for their brains to be plucked by the evil Illithid.
In that regard, what are the usual tricks to deal with the Mind Blast ability (beside Will save boosters)?
1) Can you "Dispel Magic" the Stunning? I don't think so.
2) Is it possible to make yourself immmune to Mind Blast by way of a level 4 (or less) spell?
3) What can you actually do while stunned? My reading is that you can't do anything at all, but I wanted to make sure. Can't you even grapple back to avoid having your brain sucked out?
4) Do you actually get a Ref save if stunned? (I am thinking of stunned characters in the way of one of Zyrxog's empowered lighting bolts). Do they get a Ref save, but without the Dex bonus? Does the Evasion class ability still works while you are stunned?
So, I have not ever run a Mind Flayer so far and I want to make sure to do it right when we get there. In advance, thanks for your help.
Bocklin
I had Zyrxog attack the PC's when they were returning to their hotel. Yes, it risks a TPK. Everyone missed their save.
The drow minions dragged them into a convenient dark alley, so Z could have his way with them (tasty!). However, shuffling the PC's into the alley chewed up three rounds of time. Then, Z attaching his tentacles took a round and he went to the PC who had the least stun time. It turned out that enough resistance was put up by the PC's intermittently that they eventually beat off the attack.
If it isn't turning out that way for you, just have Z eat one of the PC's brains, then haul the others off to the dungeon, where he'll keep them for midnight snacks (and allow the PC's a chance to escape or fight back).
By my interpretation, a stunned character can take no actions - that means they do NOTHING except breathe - no magic item use, no silent/still spells, no class abilities.
I got the impression that as written they get warning that they will fight him in the future when they breifly see him in Sodden hold. This was kind of foreshadowing so that smart players can prepare accordingly. I believe that a Spell Immunity spell will prevent the Mind Blast from working or at the very least it gives them time/notice to get potion or magic items that help their will save for the fight. My group hasn't gotten to him yet, but my guess is that they will get initiative and spread out so that he can only get one or two at a time with the Mind Blast.
... 3) What can you actually do while stunned? My reading is that you can't do anything at all, but I wanted to make sure. Can't you even grapple back to avoid having your brain sucked out?
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
From the SRD.
Jack
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Thanks!
Yep, I had read that, but I was unsure what it meant if someone starts to grapple you. It look like it's going to be pretty easy to succeed on the melee touch attack (you are basically AC 8; except if you are lucky enough to have a Deflection or Size bonus), but what after that? Are you allowed a grapple test to resist being grappled?
I understand from the SRD that you can't take actions on your turn, but can you react (albeit "passively" and with less efficiency) to the actions of others?
Same if someone tries to trip you: they get an easy time with the melee touch attack, but what happens if they touch: is that an automatic success or do you get a chance to resist?
Same for Ref saves: do you get to make a save against a fireball or ligthning bolt you're caught in? If yes, do you lose your Dex modifier? Does Evasion still works?
After all a Ref save is a reactive check, it's not like you're taking an action, right? Maybe you take a Ref save without Dex modifier and with a -2 penalty? Like per your AC?
I mean: you're not paralysed, just stunned (i.e. your Dex is not considered to be 0).
Bocklin
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
I had read that, but I was unsure what it meant if someone starts to grapple you...
Free actions would be included in the above ruling, which is what I take the reactions you describe to be.
Making comparisons to real life, stunned implies that a character isn't able to effectively evaluate and respond to his/her situation -- thus no actions, including responding properly to a grapple attempt. IMHO.
There are (no doubt) better-qualified people to weigh in on this, though.
Jack
It look like it's going to be pretty easy to succeed on the melee touch attack (you are basically AC 8; except if you are lucky enough to have a Deflection or Size bonus), but what after that? Are you allowed a grapple test to resist being grappled?
Yes. You are not helpless, just stunned. Being stunned prevents you from taking any actions; resisting a grapple attempt is not an action. Just as you can move enough to avoid some attacks (as evidenced by the -2 penalty to AC), but cannot take any move actions, you can make opposed grapple checks, but not initiate them yourself.
I understand from the SRD that you can't take actions on your turn, but can you react (albeit "passively" and with less efficiency) to the actions of others?
Yep. That's exactly how it works. You can't act, but you can react.
Same if someone tries to trip you: they get an easy time with the melee touch attack, but what happens if they touch: is that an automatic success or do you get a chance to resist?
You get a chance to resist. In fact, if you resist successfully, you can even attempt to trip your opponent in response, because it is not an action to do so!
Same for Ref saves: do you get to make a save against a fireball or ligthning bolt you're caught in? If yes, do you lose your Dex modifier? Does Evasion still works?
You get to make a Reflex save even if you're unconscious and/or helpless (albeit you are treated as having Dex 0). So yes, you still get a Reflex save. You lose your Dex bonus to AC (because that's what the condition description says), but not for saves per the RAW. Evasion does not work if you are helpless, but stunned creatures are not helpless; thus, it still works per the RAW.
It would not be unreasonable, IMO, for a DM to rule that a stunned character is denied his Dex bonus to Reflex saves or even that he cannot use his Evasion ability. Be aware, however, that this makes stunning an even more powerful ability, and it is already quite potent.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You get to make a Reflex save even if you're unconscious and/or helpless (albeit you are treated as having Dex 0). So yes, you still get a Reflex save. You lose your Dex bonus to AC (because that's what the condition description says), but not for saves per the RAW. Evasion does not work if you are helpless, but stunned creatures are not helpless; thus, it still works per the RAW.
I always forget the unconscious = 0 Dex rule because the bonus to hit a prone target always seems so high. So, the easiest way to determine the AC of an unconcious character is to take his flat-footed AC and then give the attacker a +9 to hit (+5 for 0 Dex, +4 for attacking prone)?
Zyrxog the Unlucky, as I have taken to calling him, met an untimely end in the initial encounter with my group. He opened with a mind blast, but only managed to stun the archer. The others were on top of him quickly, dishing out enough damage to make him worry. He then tried to plane shift away, but failed his Concentration check. The following round the group chopped him down for good. So they never did discover his lair. Also, because of bad Search checks and I think a desire to get away from the doppelganger lair, they never found the secret doors leading to Telaknen (sp?). They skipped over quite a bit of this installment.
So, the easiest way to determine the AC of an unconcious character is to take his flat-footed AC and then give the attacker a +9 to hit (+5 for 0 Dex, +4 for attacking prone)?
Helpless defenders have Dex 0, so that's a -5 penalty to AC. They also suffer a -4 penalty to AC versus melee attacks (see Table 8-6 in the PHB). On top of that, an unconscious target is most likely also prone, so there would be an additional -4 penalty to AC versus melee attacks (but +4 bonus to AC versus ranged attacks).
So for an unconscious, prone target, you would use his flat-footed AC and apply an additional -13 penalty to AC versus melee attacks or -5 penalty to AC versus ranged attacks.
My main worry is that the DC for his Mind Blast ability is quite high (DC 23) and that my players will likely end up like a bunch of standing vegetables, waiting for their brains to be plucked by the evil Illithid.
This next question isn't so much as directed at you but at the author of this installment, and the editors at Dungeon. Why is the Mind Blast ability DC so high? Shouldn't it be just DC 20?
The Monster Manual 3.5 gives your basic Mind Flayer a Mind Blast with a DC 17. Mind Blast is based on Charisma. Zyrxog's Charisma is 22, which gives him a Charisma bonus of +6. This bonus of +6 is only +3 higher then the Base Mind Flayer. I'm pretty sure Zyrxog's Mind Blast DC is incorrect and should be a 20. (Not that that helps those weak willed characters)
We use the Expanded Psionics Handbook in our game, and by using the variant (Psionics is different)rules it made for a quick TPK. Between having enough time to cast the displacement spell, and some well placed mindblasts it made for a quick battle with some very frustrated gamers.For the way that I read the variant rule spell immunity would not work against the Mindblast. I personally think that dungeon should have had some type of side bar for those who play with the Psionics Handbook to take this into consideration.
With that said its an excellent super module.
(P.S. The advanced Monster CR in the Monster Manual on page 293 deals with Associated & nonassociated class levels. Well I find this to be very unbalanced for this rule pertains to monsters with extra levels but not to PC's or NPC's. So how can one creature from the monster class that has A CR of 8 and Adds 7 more levels have a Cr of 11. While an NPC (Human) that is an 8th level fighter, 7th level sorcerer have a CR of 15 for they still are nonassociated class levels. I know as a PC which character I want to fight for my Experience.)
This next question isn't so much as directed at you but at the author of this installment, and the editors at Dungeon. Why is the Mind Blast ability DC so high? Shouldn't it be just DC 20?
The Monster Manual 3.5 gives your basic Mind Flayer a Mind Blast with a DC 17. Mind Blast is based on Charisma. Zyrxog's Charisma is 22, which gives him a Charisma bonus of +6. This bonus of +6 is only +3 higher then the Base Mind Flayer. I'm pretty sure Zyrxog's Mind Blast DC is incorrect and should be a 20. (Not that that helps those weak willed characters)
I asked about this in an earlier thread, & James (I believe it was him) confirmed that Zyrzog's mind blast DC is a typo--it should be just 20.
