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Isn't that how Warhammer works? ;) They're in, what, 6th edition now? Every few years the individual army books have outgrown each other balance-wise to such an extent that a new edition of the basic rules must be published and all the army books re-released to conform to the new ed. Seems to me they're doing OK. The one advantage games companies like WotC and Games Workshop have (and they know it) is the fanboy/girl mentality.
People get addicted to these things, they find they MUST have the next supplement, and it's a rare person who just says "meh, I'll keep playing 1st edition AD&D, no way are they ripping me off with their repackaged gloop." Gamers are like that; we feel like losers unless we are fully conversant with the most-up-to-date version, which in most cases means buying it, like a person who has to wear the latest trend of clothes every year.
The gaming industry works on the same principle as far as I can see, it's all about peer pressure and fashion and as long as those things exist games companies will always have a market. What you are proposing Jeremy would give the gamers what they want (the joy of being constantly up to date with rules so they can argue with each other about balance and combos) while cutting down on how much...
I've worked as a manager for a game store and would like to make a counter-point.
The GamesWorkshop model only works as long as there is a continual stream of new players entering the market. After three or four iterations of a game have been released, the number of original players still playing the game drops to almost zero. Said another way, after buying and relearning the rules (not to mention armies of miniatures) three to four times in a ten year period, most players quit and look for something else to play or lock into a single rules set and find other people still playing that version as well.
This means that without a continual influx of new players, the game dies as all the previous players throw up their hands and say "Enough!"
The CCG market is also suceptible to this - most of the people playing M:TG in the Houston area when it started (and I knew most of them) have quit - it just gets too expensive to keep buying and buying and buying just to stay current. Those still playing (that I've been able to keep track of) are either in the Pro circuit or have recently returned to teach their nieces, nephews, and/or kids how to play.
D&D has been blessed with only three major revisions in 30 years, allowing a stable gaming environment. There are still people out there playing 1st and 2nd edition because those are the rules they like and they can find people who still want to play that way. The cost of getting into the game is not high and you do not have to have the latest thing to be able to play.
That said, the majority of gamers playing D&D are playing 3.0 or 3.5. Why? You could say it's a better game, but I think it would be closer to the truth that what people expect from their RPG has changed and 3.0 and 3.5 meet those expectations better. Have those expectations changed enough that 4.0 would be popular? I don't think so and I hold up Eberron as an example to support this. It came out and many people like it, but not enough to make it the only setting in town. People still play FR and GH and (as evinced in this forum) many people dislike it enough to actively support something else.
As to the "meh, I'll keep playing 1st edition AD&D, no way are they ripping me off with their repackaged gloop" attitude - there are many people out they exactly like that.
I think I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop here.
OK, maybe one more thing:
EGG was booted out of TSR by the publishing company that bought his wife's shares of TSR after the divorce. They bought TSR so the owner's family could maintain ownership of their prize copyright - Buck Rodgers. TSR was a convienient method to periodically print new Buck Rodgers stuff on the cheap and maintain the copyright. That's why every 3-4 years they put out Buck Rodgers stuff when there was no market demand for it. TSR put out junk because the owners did not care as long as it was done cheaply - it is hard to put out quality when management doesn't care.
WOTC was a very necessary revitalization for D&D and they approached it as gaming for gaming's sake - until Hasbro bought them to get at that phat Pokemon money. Remember, WOTC put out adventures until Hasbro forced them to meet certain profit targets. Hence the big layoff, the bump in book prices, and the piles of rules expansions being release quarterly to keep profits up.
Ok, now I'm done.
Happiness is laminating the GH maps from Dungeon #118-121 and being allowed to hang them up in the den because my wife is also a gamer!I'd love to do the same, but I missed #120-#123 from my shop not stocking them, so I'm missing half of Greyhawk. Now I'll have to buy back issues if I want the maps. (I subscribed after #124 to get the adventure path, but by then it was too late for the maps...)
How do you get them laminated? Separately, or with a really huge laminating machine somewhere? Do they have shops that laminate things?
I went to Kinko's and they did them individually. I didn't ask about a one-piece lamination, because I didn't want one, so I don't even know if they can do it. It's pricey, but worth it.....I'm sure you might find a place that does them a little cheaper, but I've had all my FR maps and now my GH maps laminated there and they do a pretty good job, normally.
They sure look pretty up on the wall. Even the non-gamers that have come to our house have commented on how nice they look.
Another option might be to purchase a 4'x8' piece of 1/8" thick clear plexiglass and cut it in half and then mount the maps between the plexiglass pieces and screw the pieces together. The plexiglass runs about $100 usually, but it looks great and you can re-use it for different maps if you switch campaign worlds by unscrewing the pieces and sliding the maps out. One of the game stores I frequent has done that with the old 1987 FR maps and it sure looks nice too.
Gadzooks!! This is one LONG thread for only being started wednsday...
Greyhawk... Where do I start? Well I suppose I should start at the begining... Me I started playing D&D back in the day.. I mean WAY back in the day 1978 to be exact. We didn't have dice, we had laminated chits we hadda cut out and shake up in a cup to draw from. Initiative? We didn't have that, the highest Dexterity went first... Spells went up to 3rd level, elves were a class and there was no gnomes in sight! I had Keep on the borderlands, four hungry players that knew even less then I did and two study halls in a row with all of em. It was the genesis of ME. At the end of my first day as DM I already had to draw a dungeon map and populate it. It was SOOOOOO bad but everyone had fun and more importantly they came back for more (For four years in fact) Now by the time 1980 rolled around I had a few more modules and the skeleton of a world build out of necessity. It was then I found the Greyhawk Gazetteer with it's huge hex map and thin booklet. Now at that stage I had a choice, abandon my skeleton world and jump to the pretty color map of Greyhawk or stick to what I started. I opted for the latter but Greyhawk became my grist. As my world developed I took modules from GH (the A series, the G Series, the S series, etc...) and used them to build my world. 28 years (And several groups of players) later my world (Havok) is a powerhouse thriving and breathing with a history that is so rich it clogs your arteries but none of it would have happened if I didn't have Greyhawk there as a silent mentor teaching me what to do.
Over the years I've stolen things from the other settings that suited my world but Greyhawk stuff fit like a hand in a glove. Seeing the revival of it in the pages of Dungeon Magazine is like an old friend showing back up. The Shackled City, Maure Castle (Drools like an idjit) and now Age of Worms give me chills to read through and play with. They'll all be added to my world after the names are changed to protect the innocent.
Greyhawk regardless of the actions of Wotc-hasbro will continue to live and thrive through my world and dozens of others made by people like me and through the RP of hundreds of DMs who see Greyhawk as close to perfect a setting as possible; detailed enough without being overloaded, rich enough without being too spiced and broad enough without being blank.
I have nothing against Eberron or FRs but none of their maps hang on my walls while the old battered and worn 1980 Greyhawk map remains over my computer desk, faded but not gone, torn but not tattered. Am I sentimental over it? Yes but I've earned the right to be. Besides I can't help but laugh at the memory of a friend that called 'Furyondy' 'Furry Undies'
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Don't worry, I'll bring the punch and pie...and cookies, even! (I have a pin that says "Come over to the Dark Side. We have cookies." ;-) )
Or coffee, if that's your thing. I make a great pot of coffee.
I'm in if you'll have me Lilith. ( I am a sucker for cookies). I'll skip the coffee though and take a Vault.
As someone who purchased the Greyhawk Box set back in 84ish' I have always loved the setting I have tried FR and it has always seemed to come up short for me (even though they have had some excellent idea's that I have stolen and put into my Greyhawk/homebrew campaign).
If I'm lucky, I'll have a surprise for everybody by the weekend. (SCA Event this weekend, so I may be out of touch until next week.)
Suspense must be maintained! It makes for a great game!
Wait, I'm not in game right now...
I'm an old Greyhawker from way back, and I have no problems using a very sharp knife to cut my vision from the whole cloth that WotC provides with 3.5. I don't have it served on a silver platter, but I've always preferred doing it myself.
Anyway...
At one of the Eberron Q&A sessions at GenCon last year (2005), I asked how detailed they thought the setting would be. Actually, I requested that they leave plenty of room for the DM, "unlike certain unnamed campaign settings where everything is detailed, down to the last sergeant of the guard".
The question got applause. Not the answer, but the question. A lot of applause, with a few whoops and a "hear, hear!"
And to his credit, Keith Baker and company made it a point to tell us that a lot of the setting, including the source of the Mourning, the contents of Xen'drik, and a few other details will be hands-off. They basically said that they didn't want to overdescribe the world, and what I've seen of the books so far, they haven't.
I spoke with Keith after the seminar, and he pretty much thanked me for asking that question. Apparently the yards of shelf space necessary to run an FR campaign are generating a little negative feedback at WotC...
Telas
I'm an old Greyhawker from way back, and I have no problems using a very sharp knife to cut my vision from the whole cloth that WotC provides with 3.5. I don't have it served on a silver platter, but I've always preferred doing it myself.
I see your point there, and that is indeed one of the reasons I love Eberron. But it would still be nice to have a book in print that would give some general information on all the different groups, cultures, religions, history, and geography that exists in Greyhawk - a format similar to the Eberron Campaign Setting, just without the new races, classes, PrCs, weapons, spells (okay maybe some Greyhawk-specific spells... maybe), and magical items, since we've already got all that and more.
I see your point there, and that is indeed one of the reasons I love Eberron. But it would still be nice to have a book in print that would give some general information on all the different groups, cultures, religions, history, and geography that exists in Greyhawk - a format similar to the Eberron Campaign Setting, just without the new races, classes, PrCs, weapons, spells (okay maybe some Greyhawk-specific spells... maybe), and magical items, since we've already got all that and more.
That material already exists, and can be found in purchasable PDFs, the D&D Gazetteer, and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. What we really need, and what I've stated in multiple threads, is a Player's Guide to Greyhawk so that DMs can introduce new players to the world more easily. Player's Guide to Greyhawk could include regional feats, descriptions of races and cultures, basic peices of information that player characters would know (see Player's Guide to Eberron), and give them character options that integrate the setting into game mechanics (i.e. PrCs, regional feats, races/subraces).
It could also include an abbreviated history of Greyhawk as well as an abbreviated account of the Greyhawk Wars. I find the Wars to be an excellent jumping point for character background creation. I started my GH campaign in 591 CY and had the players consider how the Wars affected them and their families seeing as it only ended 7 years ago. They each read History of the Greyhawk Wars and based their character stories around the events therein. I also gave them each a free regional feat that helped them integrate the setting into the game mechanics. They loved it, but they still have gaps of knowledge about the setting, which a player's guide could help fill.
Apparently the yards of shelf space necessary to run an FR campaign are generating a little negative feedback at WotC...
I ran my FR campaign for 15 years with nothing but the original boxed set from 1987. By the time it was done I had several hundred pages of notes, handwritten and typed, but it was all my additions and expansions. I thought the "Time of Troubles" was stupid, so it didn't happen in my campaign. Same thing with a lot of other stuff. I've never been too concerned about keeping up with the published material on a campaign setting. In defense of WotC and the Realms, the yards of shelf space to run an FR campaign is a DM's problem, not Wizards' problem. So if Keith Baker and Wizards wants to detail the hell out of Eberron, I say--why not? If I choose to run an Eberron campaign with nothing but the original campaign setting book, that's my choice.
I'd love to see a GH updated sourcebook, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact that it isn't going to happen.
I don't remember if I've mentioned this already, but the Paizo shop is selling copies of Living Greyhawk Gazetteer signed by Erik Mona - or I should say, was selling copies, because they've been sold out for a while now.
I wouldn't mind a PDF, since my former DM owns the book but he's overseas right now. On the other hand, I have his Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.
And to his credit, Keith Baker and company made it a point to tell us that a lot of the setting, including the source of the Mourning, the contents of Xen'drik, and a few other details will be hands-off. They basically said that they didn't want to overdescribe the world, and what I've seen of the books so far, they haven't.
Indeed, as a DM who likes to create his own things, I like that about the setting. Some DMs no doubt prefer to weave their story out of a rich and detailed backdrop; they will prefer Forgottem Realms. Myself, I like to take a stone block and chisel my world out of it. That's what Eberron is - there's a certain basic structure to it, but I can define whatever I want as I see fit.
Greyhawk is similar, but you have the option to supply your own block.