The party I'm DMing is in the middle of Hall of Harsh Reflections and there is a warlock among them. Based on their recent run-in with a doppelganger, they have taken to asking the warlock to detect magic to ferret out any other shapechanger.
Now Detect Magic detects magical auras, and the doppelganger's change shape ability is supernatural which is defined as magical. So does this mean a cantrip type spell is sufficient to uncover the presence of doppelgangers by the third round of concentration?
On the other hand, supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and dispel magic, so I am inclined to group detect magic among them.
However, I would really feel better about it if there was some reference I could cite. Any thoughts on the matter? I'd appreciate it if you could point out a ruling that I might have missed or if you have an opinion on how to best deal with the situation.
Thanks!
Now Detect Magic detects magical auras, and the doppelganger's change shape ability is supernatural which is defined as magical. So does this mean a cantrip type spell is sufficient to uncover the presence of doppelgangers by the third round of concentration?
Interesting question! As you note, detect magic detects magical auras. Unfortunately, "aura" is not a defined D&D term. Thus, we have to look to the spell description for clarification.
"An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level."
Hmm. Okay, that text and the chart suggest that only "functioning spells" and "magic items" generate magical auras. A doppelganger's ability certainly isn't a magic item, so we can ignore that half. But is it considered to be a "functioning spell"?
If so, the strength of its aura depends on its "spell level" (see the chart). But what would be the spell level of a doppelganger's ability to change shape? Or a dragon's breath? Or a glabrezu's damage reduction? The MM says that unless otherwise noted, "a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice," but not a word about them having an effective spell level.
I think you can certainly make the argument that supernatural abilities should register on the "Detect Magic radar," but if they do, it just raises more questions that have no official answer. (What level is the spell? What school does it belong to? Etc.) And reading the spell description literally, detect magic detects magical auras created by functioning spells and magic items and that's it.
FWIW, my ruling would be that no, doppelgangers in disguise do not radiate magical auras--not only because there are no rules to support them doing so, but because it would take away a lot of the fun of doppelgangers if they did! :-)
I think you can certainly make the argument that supernatural abilities should register on the "Detect Magic radar," but if they do, it just raises more questions that have no official answer. (What level is the spell? What school does it belong to? Etc.) And reading the spell description literally, detect magic detects magical auras created by functioning spells and magic items and that's it.
Wow! I think that nails it. You got that description you quoted off the "Aura Strength" part of Detect Magic. Shows me that I ought to be doing closer reading. And the "Lingering Aura" paragraph after it mentions those two concerns as well.
I think that very ably explains why it ought not to detect the doppelganger's disguise and why I should not be misled by anything like the spell's name! :-) If anything, maybe it's the supernatural ability description that could do with a little tweaking!
At any rate, mucho thanks, Vegepygmy! Your response comes in very handy when I DM the group later today.
To add to that, I don't think there is any ongoing magical effect once the shapechange is complete (unlike the spell shapechange), since Doppelgangers and other natural shapechangers can usually hold alternative forms indefinitely, as long as they are alive. I.e. the supernatural phenomenon occurs while the thing is shifting shape--once it's stabilized in its new shape, there's no magic there.
i would tend to agree to that. refer to the mirror in the same module--quoting 'once per day, for a period of 10 minutes, it can be commanded to show the true form of a creature that is physically disguising its shape (it has the power to penetrate illusions).'
now by this, it is seems that it is an illusion, but one that is physical in nature. using supernatural ability the doppelganger alters its physical composition, and then maintains it, somewhat akin to a human holding a specific facial expression.
at least, that's my take on it.
of course, that raises the question, does a doppelganger doing a long-term assumption of form revert to normal when sleeping and/or relaxing? or does it require ongoing effort?
In Ebberon Changelings have to conciously change.
Sleep or stun doesn't make them change buy death might.
There was a spell "Detect Shape Shifter".
It should be in the new Dragon Compendium converted to
3.5. I ordered my copy. How about you.
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I like the ruling of "only detets shapechanging while it occurs" with regards to doppelgangers. We've used it to good effect in our past games.
As for detect magic being a game-spoiling cantrip, it reveals things very slowly, and requires CONCENTRATION. Any illusionist or invisible enemy will already be on guard, and be especially wary when someone starts staring intently in their direction. Most illusionists and monsters and creatures with access to invisibility are also quite clever. Since the spell is a 60' cone effect, it's not hard to move--or move the illusion--out of the range of the spell.
Yes, DM takes rounds to hone in on a specific aura. With the "PC" moving around, interacting with others, and wearing magic items - it is pretty much moot.
However, as it is not dispellable, etc, IMC DM wouldn't work against this inherent ability, anyway.
Yeah one of the keys too is to up the background noise, i.e. get the PCs used to just about everyone they use detect magic on to have some kind of aura, even if its just a potion they are carrying.
whats the official ruling by 'the sage' on this detect magic thing?
I like the ruling of "only detets shapechanging while it occurs" with regards to doppelgangers. We've used it to good effect in our past games.
As for detect magic being a game-spoiling cantrip, it reveals things very slowly, and requires CONCENTRATION. Any illusionist or invisible enemy will already be on guard, and be especially wary when someone starts staring intently in their direction. Most illusionists and monsters and creatures with access to invisibility are also quite clever. Since the spell is a 60' cone effect, it's not hard to move--or move the illusion--out of the range of the spell.
Right, concentrate = standard action.
Thus you cannot both detect the invisible opponent and attack it in same round. When you stop concentrating, it moves and you once again have no idea where it is. All you can do is point it out for others to target, and they might not even be able to tell what square you're pointing to. And a creature that is inherently invisible, like an invisible stalker, can't be detected at all in this way. (It's a supernatural, not a spell-like, ability for such creatures, so same rule we applied to shapechangers above fits here).
As for mirror image, if you concentrate for three rounds you might be able to distinguish the real guy from the images and shout "attack the guy in the middle" (if you make your spellcraft check to recognize each of the images as having only a faint illusion and nothing else, you can deduce who is real). But as soon as the enemy's initiative count is up, he scrambles the images again and you've got to start over.
As for shadow conjurations, you might figure out it's an illusion after three rounds and warn the party, giving a chance to disbelieve and thus diminish the power of the illusion to harm.
So, in combat, detect magic is rarely worth using--you're far better off casting other spells for the three rounds you're using just to find the invisible or illusionary enemy. And with the "background noise"--the auras from everyone's magic swords, potions, ongoing spells and magical effects, etc., you can't rely just on the fact that there are auras (1 round of concentration), or that a particular creature has a magic aura on or about it (2 rounds) to deduce that it is illusionary--only the presence of illusion magic and nothing else (3 rounds of concentration plus a spellcraft check) gives you enough information to deduce that.
As for fixed magical effects--illusions rely on avoiding making people suspicious. If you put your hand through the illusionary wall, you're likely to disbelieve the illusion, or at least realize it is one. If you don't touch it, and don't know it's an illusion, you're not any more likely to use detect magic on it than you are to examine it carefully by conventional means. Even a high-level caster with permanent detect magic has to concentrate to activate the ability, though he can walk slowly around the dungeon with his DM activated. If you have such a caster who has made the XP sacrifice, he deserves to get the benefit from it. But remember that any smart illusionist who is outfitting his lair with lots of permanent illusions or hiding objects with permanent invisibility is also going to be smart enough to use Nystul's magic aura to thwart his spell-casting enemies in this regard. (NMA is not listed with the spells that can be affected by permanency, but it would seem reasonable to allow a high-level illusionist to research this new application of the spell.
Sort of like doing inverted weaves in Wheel of Time--if you know what to do, you can prevent others from "seeing" your magic.