This is probably more of a general question than an AoW one, but we are playing AoW so I figured I'd ask it here. My group will be growing from 4 players to 5 in the near future. The new character will be joining the keep for the 3rd adventure and, hopefully, will be there til the end.
As I understand it the campaign is designed for 4 players. Won't having 5 upset the balance? It seems that it will either put the characters behind the leveling curve, making things very difficult, or it will make all the encounters a bit too easy...since they'll have more resources to draw upon than anticipated.
Anyone have any thoughts or experiences that they'd like to share related to this? Should I increase the encounter difficulty so that the group will stay leveled up properly and continue to be challenged, or should I leave it as is and trust things to take care of themselves?
I've run the AoWAP with five PCs from the beginning. The encounters have still been quite challenging. Individually characters can fall behind the curve, but the extra character adds value to the party also so it has evened out most of the time.
...As I understand it the campaign is designed for 4 players. Won't having 5 upset the balance? ...
Don't sweat it -- they'll probably need the fifth sword. The the campaign is arguably not well-balanced for four (?!) characters of the advertised level.
Don't get me wrong, AoW is fantastic. But look carefully at the CRs that the group will routinely face.
Jack
...As I understand it the campaign is designed for 4 players. Won't having 5 upset the balance? ...Don't sweat it -- they'll probably need the fifth sword. The the campaign is arguably not well-balanced for four (?!) characters of the advertised level.
Don't get me wrong, AoW is fantastic. But look carefully at the CRs that the group will routinely face.
Jack
Yeah, I was noticing that the ELs tended towards high. Still, I didnt want to have the Mage or Priest falling behind and not having access to an essential spell at some point or some other level-related problem. Sounds like I shouldn't worry about it. Fine by me, I've had mixed success with scaling encounters up/down to meet party strengths in past campaigns.
Thanks for the advice guys. Had a 75% mortality rate on the assault on the Hextorites...maybe the extra guy will keep that from happening again.
I'm DM'ing five maybe 6 in the future and I'm pretty sure the Paizo crew's "playtest" is more than four. If you need to scale the adventure with an extra level or an extra creature here and there, let 'em feel the challenge.
I've run the Shackled City Adventure Path through Test of the Smoking Eye with six players. I through in two sidetreks, and they've stayed just ahead of the recommended levels for each adventure.
I tend to scale the boss fights or climactic battles and let the filler fights take care of themselves. A key thing to remember is to confront larger groups of PCs with larger groups of enemies (not just higher level enemies). Six to eight characters can put the smackdown on boss monsters without minions, unless the boss monster is so powerful that he takes characters out of the fight each round (which isn't much fun for the players whose character get eliminated first).
I only add more adversaries if it starts to look
like a cakewalk.
I am running it with 4 characters and they had to pick up NPCs.
Is someone playing a cleric or paladin?
Some kind of healing expert is needed.
I keep hearing about TPKs.
|
when all my players are present, i have to deal with 7 players, but usually its 6. i know my players pretty well and have a good idea as to what they can or cannot handle, so i'll adjust the adventures accordingly (whether its knocking the CR of an encounter up by 1 or eliminating stuff that would prove to be a headache for all...such as the labyrinth in 3FoE). as long as you have a pretty good idea as to how your players will respond to a given situation, go with what your gut tells you. you find that you're seldom wrong.
|
I ditched the labyrinth also & had the group interrupt a sacreficial ceremony; a lot more dramatic than a 3rd consecutive dungeon crawl. Maybe I've not gotten the hang of running a melee in 3rd edition, but I dont see how a group can be succesful in this adventure path without at least 2 front line fighter types and ranged bombadier.
Well, once the new guy is added, we are going to have a rogue, sorcerer, cleric (with cha of 18 and is getting the "turning" feat that gives fast healing from complete divine), dwarven defender and a paladin (with the maximize healing "turning" feat). I think they've got their bases covered pretty well and they are being mindful of healing magic. They've had a rough time in a couple of spots thus far, so I guess the 5th guy will probably help out. I was just concerned that he might do more harm than good (by slowing down the leveling). From what you guys are saying, it sounds like 5 or 6 is probably the ideal party size.
Oh, ehb1022, I like that idea for the ritual. Seems like that would make the Faceless One encounter flow into the Ebon Aspect encounter more smoothly....how did your players handle those two encounters back to back like that? Sounds like it could be pretty tough.
I'm running for a group of 7. Each adventure tells you what levels it's for, so if they start to fall behind, it should be easy to notice it ahead of time and add a couple of extra encounters every once in a while. Another thing you may want to do is add a bit of extra treasure occasionally; I know with my group of 7 that they were starting to fall behind the recommended wealth levels, I assume the same would eventually happen with your group of 5.
When I read 3 Faces of Evil I found no deadline.
Basicly when the 3 cults die their lifeforce completes the
Aspect's gestation.
Of course, once the last high priest falls the Aspect must
be dealt with immediately.
It would take longer for the cultists to sacrifice that
many victiums.
Actually, if they over exert themselves the cultists would
attract the attention of the other adventuring group and
the law of Diamond Lake.
The adventurers could take a day off to go up a level or
visit the local church for more healing potions.
|
|
To Shadowlance:
I got the idea from another thread actually (i'll try to find it later to give credit where it's due). After wiping out Grallak & his minions, the party rested & explored the grimlock cavern for 2 days before the rogue noticed the chanting comming from the Dark Cathedral, so they were in great shape. Unfortunately they took too long to buff up before breaking up the ceremony & poor Constance Grace was sacrificed to Vecna (a sadistic plot twist to torture one of our rogues). The Facless One summoned his huge centipede and began to buff also. It could have easily been a TPK as both fighters were near zero HPs when the Faceless One, the kenku, & the two acolytes fell.
Ironically, what saved the party was that during their charge, our wizard got cut-off & trapped near the elevator by a pair of kenku for the entire melee. He didnt want to use up his spells on them & never was able to hit either with his staff. Finally one of the rogues finished them off at about the time the F-One fell into the pool, summoning the Ebon Aspect.
As the creature began to rise from the pool, I was sure this would be the end of the party as only the wizard had more than 10 HPs. He used his round to cast Scorching Ray & rolled 20, then a second 20, so i gave him max double damage (48 HPs) & that was diference between a TPK & really dramatic finale. We also got a new house rule concerning double 20s.
To Ehb -> thanks for the thread info. Sounds like it really worked out well for you guys. I'll definitely give that thread a look and see if I'll be able to put it to use.
Cintra -> Yeah, I know the adventures give suggested levels, etc. My concern was that if the adventure is for 4 5th level characters and I throw 5 5th level characters at it, it would be a bit too easy. From what people have posted it seems thats not a concern.
We'll find out soon...they defeated Grallak Kur last night and are making their way to the Temple of Hextor to rest up (possibly to be awoken by the sounds of a ritual in the Dark Cathedral). Last nights events spark another question....
When they were approaching Kur's lair, they were able to ambush the two sentries in room 18 and, after scouting out the living area with the 6 grimlocks, they snuck into Kur's room and killed him and his sentries. So, how many xp would you guys give them for the 6 grimlocks and the chieftain? They didn't fight them so some would say they get no xp, others might say that they defeated them by virtue of sneaking past them so should get full xp. My thought is, they dont get the loot since they snuck past so they should get some kind of reward. I don't want to discourage smart play after all...seems like withholding xp is a pretty major discouragement.
I'm wondering as well how to handle the final encounters of 3FoE. I have 5 pc's; Rogue, Barbarian, Wizard, Ranger, Favored Soul (Helm). They just found a 6th pc (paladin of Tyr) who was bound up in the Hexorite temple, though that intro hasn't gone to plan I have high hopes they'll work it out. So they are in the grimlock caves exploring and will face Grallak Kur in the next session. I have high hopes they'll enter the labryinth and square of against the Faceless One. Now according to the text they are suppose to face the Ebon Aspect immediatly after the Faceless One. So how are my 6 players all hopefully 4th level by that encounter going to fight the Ebon Aspect after the whuppin they are gonna get from the Faceless One?
You obviously read the module differently than me.
I interpereted it as "When the 3rd High Priest falls,
all triad worshippers in the dungeon get soul sucked
to feed the aspect's awakening."
That included the bad guy you left tied up and anyone you
bypassed.
Only the Kenkus we convinced to run away survived.
Get the treasure after the big fight.
You obviously read the module differently than me.
I interpereted it as "When the 3rd High Priest falls,
all triad worshippers in the dungeon get soul sucked
to feed the aspect's awakening."
I don't think that's how it's supposed to work, but it IS an interesting idea. That combined with the previous idea in the thread (of having a ceremony going on in the Cathedral that the party interrupts) could make for a very cool scene.
Party fights there way to the Faceless One, who's about to sacrifice NPC "x", killing him just before they are overwhelmed by the sheer number of minions. The death of the Faceless One triggers the manifestation of the Ebon Aspect and all of the remaining Triad worshippers in the room get "soul sucked" to power him up. Leaves a few stragglers to keep the Vecna wing a little bit interesting and provides a way for the group to survive back to back Faceless One / Ebon Aspect encounters.
I think I'll give that a shot...thanks for the ideas guys.
Anyone have any thoughts on my xp question from a couple of posts back?
I'm running with 7 players. You've got to be careful how you balance it. Rather than raising levels/CR, I toss in an extra creature or three and raise their hit points. I added only 1 wolf to the pack in the WC and the party got walloped right well. In 3FoE, I added some skeletons, a few more guys to the mob, and maxed out the dire boar's hit points (which didn't save it from being demolished by the goliath's greathammer). In the maze, I added an extra team of kenkus and an extra acolyte. I also (as an aside) changed their weapons and gave them rapiers. Clubs are for goblins and ogres. Kenku have more style.
I also (as an aside) changed their weapons and gave them rapiers. Clubs are for goblins and ogres. Kenku have more style.
100% agree. Thanks for the suggestion.
When I read 3 Faces of Evil I found no deadline.
Basicly when the 3 cults die their lifeforce completes the
Aspect's gestation.
This is my biggest critic on 3FoE: The players action do not really have an effect on the story: The aspect will arise either by being summoned by the 3 cults OR after all 3 are defeated. I therefore ruled that the aspect will have a short appearance when trying to materialize but that he will collaps soon thereafter.
On the original question: My group features 7 PCs and they still have lots of trouble with some encounters. So do not worry AoW will be challenging...
The Age of Worms, just like Shackled City, states as published that it is designed for four players. However, just like Shackled City, it presents a reasonable challenge for a larger party (six players to even higher). A few battles will play out easier, and level advancement won't be quite as fast, but otherwise you shouldn't have much problems.
I would recommend, if you have more than six players, to have a few side trek adventures ready at lower levels, keep an eye on the current xp totals (make a running tally at the end of each session to see where the players are, at the least), and stick smaller adventures in between the sections if you see a gap between suggested starting level for the next step and the pcs' current level at the end of the prior. a few non-path adventures sprinkled in the early stages can't hurt anyway, they can be used to give a 'not everything is tied into this plotline' feeling and can help anchor a campaign world feel.
My players just finished 3FoE last weekend. They have been playing with 6 characters since the get go, and have had many a problem with the encounters. So far, there have been 2 character deaths and a number of near TPK. The adventures as written, at least in our experience. have been quite challenging even with extra party members. As for experience, I added the abandoned mine office adventure posted in these forums to boost party xp before the first adventure. That allowed them to reach level 3 prior to 3FoE. I did notice that by the end of the adventure, they would be a few hundred xp short of level 5, so I added an encounter with Dourstone and some guards, who came to see what was happening in the temple just before the party entered the Vecna wing. This gave the party the boost they needed.
Oh and by the way, the final encounter with the Ebon Aspect was hairy indeed. The party monk was dead, the rogue unconscious and dying, the paladin unconscious and dying, the cleric out of spells, unconscious and dying, the wizard out of spells and in single digits with no ranged weapon before the party druid was able to step in and drop the aspect with one swing from his scimitar. Granted they all entered the battle at less than half health and no healing spells or potions, but it made for a great battle. They all felt that their death was imminent, but that the Ebon Aspect must be prevented from entering Diamond Lake, so into combat they boldly strode. Only a pair of well timed crits by the monk and pally before they fell prevented a TPK. True heroes indeed. What an excellent AP.