
Sexi Golem 01 |

My player keep using commune spells to ask their gods what to do.
No problem with the spell itself but I run pretty loose campaigns without a whole lot of things planned in advance.
I have the story and all planned out and the direction I want the camaign to be headed in but the nuts and bolts (like monster X is in dungeon Y doing Z) are generally not in writing until the next session.
My players seem to be happy with this style and I am too but when it comes to divinations I'm not sure how to accomadate the PC's needs because so many of my answers are on the fly.
Any suggestions?

Sexi Golem 01 |

I'd make a list of about a dozen cryptic answers that you should keep in the inside cover of your DM guide. Some of the don't even have to be true NOW. But they could even give you guidelines on what to do next.
"Difficult to see; Always in motion is the future." - Yoda
Ultradan
Sounds good, but I think the spell states that they get yes, no or maybe as answers. I have been doing it that way so far and would have to think on that before I would change it. Plus the cleric using it is a radiant servant and he is always asking about curing a strange illness or fighting evil so I have a hard time outlining what Pelor, the strongest god in my pantheon, would not be able or willing to tell them.
The one problem I had was last session my players were on route to root out a blackguard that had evaded capture and fled into the northern hills. Once they discovered there was a ruined evil citadel in the area they cast commune to see if the blackguard was working alone. They asked the following
Are there any powerful *insert* allied with the blackguard?
*dragons*
*undead*
*evil outsiders*
*abberations*
I realize that these are all powerful evil creatures that are known to side with evil humanoids on a regular basis so I could understand why they would ask and answered their questions without argument. But questions like this just rub me the wrong way since they specifically ask for racial types.
Oh and by the way they got a "yes" as an answer to all of them except the abberations.

Ultradan |

The one problem I had was last session my players were on route to root out a blackguard that had evaded capture and fled into the northern hills. Once they discovered there was a ruined evil citadel in the area they cast commune to see if the blackguard was working alone. They asked the following
Are there any powerful *insert* allied with the blackguard?
*dragons*
*undead*
*evil outsiders*
*abberations*I realize that these are all powerful evil creatures that are known to side with evil humanoids on a regular basis so I could understand why they would ask and answered their questions without argument. But questions like this just rub me the wrong way since they specifically ask for racial types.
Oh and by the way they got a "yes" as an answer to all of them except the abberations.
I would of answered "Yes" for the Dragon as the dragon surely struck a deal with the Blackguard. "No" for the undead as they aren't really allies of anybody (they have no will). And "Maybe" for the evil outsiders, as they usually do what benifits THEM, and would most certainly turn on the Blackguard if the situation suited them (so, allies they are not).
Or always answer "Maybe". By getting this response ten times in a row, the cleric should realize that he's over-using his gods' gift of communicating with him, and that this spell should be used only when in dire need, not as a magic eight ball.
Ultradan

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Maybe you should consider setting up a sting - something that you can answer using their commune spell but will mislead them (maybe apply a Half-something template and then give the answer that YOU want to give when asked about it). Ordinarily you wouldn't want to do that, but in this instance it is probably worth it so they learn the limits of the spell (and your patience). Alternatively, maybe the gods are getting a bit cheesed off with all this pestering - maybe send them on a quest as penance. And perhaps the gods have an agenda, and don't answer honestly (I can't remember - is Commune always reliable). And finally - the gods in D&D are not omnipotent and omniscient. Possibly they don't know the answer to some stuff. Maybe another god or entity is involved and protecting the object of the enquiry. A simple "dunno, mate" might reduce the party's willingness to Commune with a deity on a regular basis.

Timault Azal-Darkwarren |

I'd say you answer "yes" to all of the allies of the blackguard. A god would have a much more global view of the term "ally."
The blackguard's church most likely has allies with every creature type under the sun and the party will try to prepare for everything but start to realize that Pelor has a wider view of the world and is concerned with the entire problem of evil rather than their little party.

Chris Wissel - WerePlatypus |

I think you got off easy with those questions. Really, they're pretty general, and just cause a party knows they're going up against undead, dragons, and evil outsiders, doesn't mean they're going to break the game with that knowledge. It sounds like a pretty wide base to me.
Considering the spell slot and the 100 xp cost with each casting, I say they've more than paid for their information.
Furthermore, if you're making up answers on the fly, you can use their questions as inpiration and just prepare your next adventure accoridingly.

Sexi Golem 01 |

I think you got off easy with those questions. Really, they're pretty general, and just cause a party knows they're going up against undead, dragons, and evil outsiders, doesn't mean they're going to break the game with that knowledge. It sounds like a pretty wide base to me.
Considering the spell slot and the 100 xp cost with each casting, I say they've more than paid for their information.
Furthermore, if you're making up answers on the fly, you can use their questions as inpiration and just prepare your next adventure accoridingly.
That is pretty much what I did.
And once again I'm not angry with the spell or the info they are gaining. I'm actually asking for suggestions on how to handle these spells better for the players benefit. I had a rough Idea of what the blackguard was up to but I had nothing concrete until I answered their questions and now I had a rough draft of what they were up against. No trouble here, not yet anyway.
My two problems are this
1. I do not want to make a hasty decision and build an outline of an encounter I do not like because of info I had to hand out before I actually had said info myself. Although the more I ponder on it I am beginning to accept it as an inherrent problem that comes with my chosen DM'ing style.
2. I just didn't like the way my PC's phrased their questions. Any dragons, any abberations, it just felt too metagame.........ish. Although I have no problem with the info they received. However this is something I'll just talk to my players about and I do not foresee any problems with that.

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It seems to be a trend in your party mostly to ask about monster types and their allegiences--if that's all they're doing that throws a kink in your plans, I'd flesh stuff like that out ahead of time. Your style of DMing is very similar to mine, and though my players don't seem to understand the power of commune and divination, I would accomodate this change in player activity by sketching out the main groups of monsters the PC's will be facing in each general area without actually writing them up ahead of time. For example, the fact that you knew the blackguard in your situation was allied with a powerful undead, dragon, and outsider allowed you to basically cover what you needed to (though whether I'd allow my players to identify creatures in game/category terms like outsider or aberration when communing is another matter). Other than that, and for enemies that are not integral to the storyline but may have minions and allies, using the spell questions as inspiriation runs right along with your apparent style of DMing--the players may even be making your job easier by posing an allegiance you may not have thought of on your own.
In general, I would say that the only PCs that should be able to classify creatures by category (aberrations, outsiders, plants, etc.) are those with ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill. Other PCs may just see a shambling mound as a rotting mass of flesh, but the ranger with Knowledge: Nature can see its plant-like qualities. It's not ideal, but I would quickly become annoyed if my fighters and rogues went around calling each monster out by category; "Careful, guys, it's an outsider, so we'll need some special material to get past its damage reduction." Only a character with the knowledge skill to recognize planar menaces can categorize them as such.

Sexi Golem 01 |

In general, I would say that the only PCs that should be able to classify creatures by category (aberrations, outsiders, plants, etc.) are those with ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill. Other PCs may just see a shambling mound as a rotting mass of flesh, but the ranger with Knowledge: Nature can see its plant-like qualities. It's not ideal, but I would quickly become annoyed if my fighters and rogues went around calling each monster out by category; "Careful, guys, it's an outsider, so we'll need some special material to get past its damage reduction." Only a character with the knowledge skill to recognize planar menaces can categorize them as such.
I agree. But my players can. The wizard in the party has all knowledges that can be used to identify creatures and has a very high modifier. Arcana, Nature, Planes,...... maybe thats it but the cleric has knowledge religion so between the two of them there isn't a whole lot they do not know about their opponents. Apparently calling out their racial type was not as bad as it felt. So I guess that point is now moot.

Sexi Golem 01 |

For example, the fact that you knew the blackguard in your situation was allied with a powerful undead, dragon, and outsider allowed you to basically cover what you needed to (though whether I'd allow my players to identify creatures in game/category terms like outsider or aberration when communing is another matter). Other than that, and for enemies that are not integral to the storyline but may have minions and allies, using the spell questions as inspiriation runs right along with your apparent style of DMing--the players may even be making your job easier by posing an allegiance you may not have thought of on your own.
Good points. It has not caused any problems yet I'm just worried that it will. But I guess there's no point in crying over not yet spilled milk. I was hoping for some tips on how to prepare for commune and other such divinations but by it seems like they can pop up anywhere and must be approached on a case by case basis. Thanks for your help guys.

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A word on improvisation (from a guy who plays jazz piano occasionally) - and to reinforce a previous comment. You get good at making stuff up if you have some preparation behind it - you can riff on an already known theme, so to speak, and you have developed some technique before you play in public. Plus, you get better with practice. And also, you will be hit by inspiration from time to time. Maybe bland, generic and quite possibly useless advice, but I hope it helps.

christian mazel |

Chris Wissel - WerePlatypus wrote:I think you got off easy with those questions. Really, they're pretty general, and just cause a party knows they're going up against undead, dragons, and evil outsiders, doesn't mean they're going to break the game with that knowledge. It sounds like a pretty wide base to me.
Considering the spell slot and the 100 xp cost with each casting, I say they've more than paid for their information.
Furthermore, if you're making up answers on the fly, you can use their questions as inpiration and just prepare your next adventure accoridingly.
That is pretty much what I did.
And once again I'm not angry with the spell or the info they are gaining. I'm actually asking for suggestions on how to handle these spells better for the players benefit. I had a rough Idea of what the blackguard was up to but I had nothing concrete until I answered their questions and now I had a rough draft of what they were up against. No trouble here, not yet anyway.
My two problems are this
1. I do not want to make a hasty decision and build an outline of an encounter I do not like because of info I had to hand out before I actually had said info myself. Although the more I ponder on it I am beginning to accept it as an inherrent problem that comes with my chosen DM'ing style.
2. I just didn't like the way my PC's phrased their questions. Any dragons, any abberations, it just felt too metagame.........ish. Although I have no problem with the info they received. However this is something I'll just talk to my players about and I do not foresee any problems with that.
I think that you can say yes or no as you want, allies come and go, when the party attacks maybe some are gone elsewhere and will be back days later.
I think that by using this method you can use any encounter you want without too much lie, if they asked about several creature types give them at least one to fight and find explanations for the others not being there anymore(if you said: yes; in the answers).
Tiger Lily |

A logical way you could simply state the answer is unknown if you're getting pushed in a direction you're not sure of yet:
In our world, deities are only omnipotent with regards to their followers. They know everything their collective followers know and experience, but that's it. So, in your example, if Pelor doesn't have any followers in the group the party is scouting, or any followers that helped set it up, etc., then he doesn't have the answers to the question.
With the amount of intrigue that occurs in the pantheons (especially among evil aligned deities), there has to be SOME limits to their knowledge or all the plot manipulations don't work. This is how we explain it.

Saern |

I'm the wizard in question in Sexi's game. Firstly, there's nothing metagame about asking creature types- think of it as modern phylogeny- Chordata, Vertebrates, etc. These creature types are known to the scholarly (that's me! :P), not a metagame abstraction. If you need proof, look at the many spells with trigger conditions, in which creature type, anything from something general like "humanoid" down to "drow" is acceptable, but class and level are not. Although I've failed on more than one occaision, I prefer not to metagame out scenarios, and I don't think that asking the creature type counts as such.
Also, Sexi, you're right- it's just an inherent drawback of your style. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just one of the cons, along with the pros, of your technique.
And yes, the 100xp per casting on the cleric's part is more than enough to warrant the info, MOST of the time. Yoda's right, Sexi, the future is always chaning. What's true now can be undone by the time we reach the villain. Also, maybe you've heard of a guy by the name of Vecna? Ya, he likes to hide info. So would any evil deity under which the blackguard is more or less a servitor. If you don't want us to know something, just say they found a way to block Pelor's knowqledge. He's all big and shiney and everything, but he's not omnipotent.
And yes, coming up with some cryptic phrases beforehand for other divination spells isn't a bad idea. All in all, I think you've done an admirable job, and I really enjoy working on questions for cummune with the cleric. Everytime we get done casting it, we have as many, or more, questions that before, typcially, which is to say, you're doing a good job!

Sexi Golem 01 |

A logical way you could simply state the answer is unknown if you're getting pushed in a direction you're not sure of yet:
In our world, deities are only omnipotent with regards to their followers. They know everything their collective followers know and experience, but that's it. So, in your example, if Pelor doesn't have any followers in the group the party is scouting, or any followers that helped set it up, etc., then he doesn't have the answers to the question.
With the amount of intrigue that occurs in the pantheons (especially among evil aligned deities), there has to be SOME limits to their knowledge or all the plot manipulations don't work. This is how we explain it.
True but it isn't just pelor working alone, it's a network that the churches have developed in my campaign. There is a huge area where the nine hells has been drawn too close to the material plane and feinds are slipping into the material plane with ease. Worse yet the evil of the nine hells is slowly beginning to infect the material realm and It has become slightly evil aligned, This has made it more difficult for good outsiders to travel there and help. In an effort to combat the threat all of the good aligned churches have created an information network. Anytime a threat, such as my blackguard trying to stir up a cult, comes to the attention of any clergy they gather as much info as they can (scrying mostly) and spread the word. So it ends up in a followers ear fairly soon. At the start of the campaign this was meerly a tool to explain why the material plane is still operating smoothly with a giant rift into hell. This was before we had any divine casters. Ugghh...... I knew I was going to regret killing that spellsword.
Thanks for the advice.
And Saern, I agree that it makes since to refer to them as racial types. Now I can't remeber if thats in the above posts It's just that hearing those words being said in character when normally they're are used when going over a template or a special ability..... it just gave me the a bad vibe thats all.
Oh and Saern, be careful what you guys ask about. As I said I rarely have anything that far in advance and you guys end up feeding me ideas.

DragonNerd |

My player keep using commune spells to ask their gods what to do.
No problem with the spell itself but I run pretty loose campaigns without a whole lot of things planned in advance.
I have the story and all planned out and the direction I want the camaign to be headed in but the nuts and bolts (like monster X is in dungeon Y doing Z) are generally not in writing until the next session.
My players seem to be happy with this style and I am too but when it comes to divinations I'm not sure how to accomadate the PC's needs because so many of my answers are on the fly.
Any suggestions?
\
Zat would be me golem! The Radiant Servent of Pelor at yuour service. Since this question is about me and my party I was interested to say the least.

DragonNerd |

Sexi Golem 01 wrote:Zat would be me golem! The Radiant Servent of Pelor at your service. Since this question is about me and my party I was interested to say the least.My player keep using commune spells to ask their gods what to do.
No problem with the spell itself but I run pretty loose campaigns without a whole lot of things planned in advance.
I have the story and all planned out and the direction I want the camaign to be headed in but the nuts and bolts (like monster X is in dungeon Y doing Z) are generally not in writing until the next session.
My players seem to be happy with this style and I am too but when it comes to divinations I'm not sure how to accomadate the PC's needs because so many of my answers are on the fly.
Any suggestions?