Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We have not been explicitly forbidden from running Greyhawk content, but we have been taking extra care to ensure that said material is useful across a wide spectrum of campaign settings, which perforce means we don't tend to publish excessively indulgent historical pieces. Maure Castle is a good example of the right tone, as is the Age of Worms, Istivin: City of Shadows, Hateful Legacy, etc., etc., etc.
--Erik
We have not been explicitly forbidden from running Greyhawk content...
thank goodness!
Maure Castle is a good example of the right tone, as is the Age of Worms, Istivin: City of Shadows, Hateful Legacy, etc., etc., etc.
ah - so you're supposed to support as generic a world as possible using things from GH. like noting that the Baklunish can easily be translated into a 'nomadic culture from the north'...
hmmm...
i guess WotC just doesn't want to advertise GH anymore? my ignorance is vast and cream-filled...
-peace is for the conquered!-
Mmmmmm Cream-filled....
*drools*
While I enjoy the adventures so far in Dungeon I hope that future GH are at least given as much detail to fit into GH first, and then adjusted for other worlds later.
It's a shame that with the recent updates to the game we all love that the classic and backbone of it seems left by the way side.
The current adventures printed up (wether they are AOW, Istivin: City of Shadows, or something stand alone style like "Fiend's Embrace" (one of my favs to be honest)) seem to give new life to GH to those of us getting into the game recently.
Most of my experience has been with 3.0/3.5 (although I started out with 2nd edition's Skills and Powers book) so I appreciate all the hard work that is put into this every month.
Now to save my pennies to renew my subscription. :)
Thanks for the clarification, Erik. Your ability to support Greyhawk is one of the reasons that I continue to enjoy Dungeon as much as I do. I'm glad to hear that reason won't be going away anytime soon :D
Totally agree with you! I can't describe it, but I get this giddy feeling of nostalgic joy whenever I trace a hex on the old Greyhawk boxed set maps to determine the location of an adventure from Dungeon that I'm dropping into my GH campaign.
My playing group's characters are currently in CY 576 and they or their next group of PC's are going to experience the Greyhawk Wars firsthand--I can't wait....
Are there really that few people who play in Greyhawk? I've never known anyone who played anywhere else, except for a group in Chicago that one of my friends joined after he moved out of town.
Is supporting a campaign that people play that dangerous? Any more dangerous than adding a new campaign to compete with Forgotten Realms (Eberron)? Will the Realms go the same way as Greyhawk and Dragonlance before it?
Are there really that few people who play in Greyhawk? I've never known anyone who played anywhere else, except for a group in Chicago that one of my friends joined after he moved out of town.
Is supporting a campaign that people play that dangerous? Any more dangerous than adding a new campaign to compete with Forgotten Realms (Eberron)? Will the Realms go the same way as Greyhawk and Dragonlance before it?
I don't agree with WotC policy of cutting GH fans off from "official" stuff. Devoted GH fans are not going to buy many FR or Eberron products, no matter what. If WotC published an occasional official GH book, they would make money, I'm sure of it, because the GH fans would run to their FLGS or favorite website to gobble up anything GH. I don't think it would negatively impact Eberron or FR sales, because the devoted FR and Eberron fans aren't going to abandon their campaigns just because Wizards puts out a GH book every once in a while.
I'm sure there are marketing and economic reasons for this, but logically I just don't see it.
Are there really that few people who play in Greyhawk? I've never known anyone who played anywhere else, except for a group in Chicago that one of my friends joined after he moved out of town.
Personally in over 20 years of play, I've never really touched the stuff except to add early modules into my home game which was set in what became the D&D Known World (later Mystara). I live in the Midwest not 7 hours away from Greyhalk's birthplace but I've never really met anyone who actually gamed there (except that one GenCon that Gary Gygax DMed our table). My only "official" visit to that realm started this summer on one of these threads and ended (at least for a while) yesterday. A nice place to visit, but I prefer my current homemade world. I know the history and I wrote/plagiarized the source book.
Will the Realms go the same way as Greyhawk and Dragonlance before it?
One can only hope.
;)
GGG
Supporter of the D&D Known World since it's inception.
Is supporting a campaign that people play that dangerous? Any more dangerous than adding a new campaign to compete with Forgotten Realms (Eberron)? Will the Realms go the same way as Greyhawk and Dragonlance before it?I don't agree with WotC policy of cutting GH fans off from "official" stuff. Devoted GH fans are not going to buy many FR or Eberron products, no matter what. If WotC published an occasional official GH book, they would make money, I'm sure of it, because the GH fans would run to their FLGS or favorite website to gobble up anything GH ...
I'm sure there are marketing and economic reasons for this, but logically I just don't see it.
Hear, hear! I agree 100%. If you're worried about splitting up your audience, why add new campaign world (Eberron)?
If they made a real Greyhawk hardcover -- not one that simply provided stock feats/magic items/prestige classes loosely tied to different regions but one that really fleshed out gods and regions, in the vein of Reynolds' recent Boccob article in Dragon -- I bet it would sell like hotcakes. Why not sell a book has has a known base instead of going out on a limb (with the Magic of Incarnum, etc.)?
What's with all the bellyaching about Eberron I'm hearing? It's a fine campaign world. Eberron does an excellent job of embracing the natural character development arc of D&D. It's also remarkable for giving strong hooks for adventures in the very nature of the campaign world in a way that no prior setting has managed. Finally, I like it because it shakes up the usual genres of D&D, bringing in elements of pulp and noir while staying true to its roots. You can talk up Greyhawk all you want, but bashing Eberron is just ig'nant.
Hey, I'm not bashing Eberron. I like the campaign world its set in and love what they've done for abberations. But, I don't play in Eberron. I play in Greyhawk, and want to see some Greyhawk source books. Frankly, I buy just about everything wizards of the coast puts out, (though I haven't picked up the environment series or magic of arcanum or weapons of legacy, and I wasn't that big a fan of the race series either.) All I'm saying is that the Sharn book and the Waterdeep book could have been complimented by a Free City book.
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Hear, hear! I agree 100%. If you're worried about splitting up your audience, why add new campaign world (Eberron)?
I've never played Greyhawk, and I only know Forgotten Realms from the computer games (Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights), so please excuse me if I am ignorant, but the impression I have always gotten from the two settings is that overall they were pretty similar classic fantasy worlds.
Ebberron on the other hand tries to incorperate a lot more adventure and pulp feeling, thus I think it targets a slightly different segment of the audience than the other two settings.
Sure the high fantasy is probably the most popular type of setting, but a lot of other gamers are looking for something different, and to me (and my limited knowledge of the settings) Grey Hawk and Forgotten Realms just never seemed that different.
Hey, I'm not bashing Eberron. ... All I'm saying is that the Sharn book and the Waterdeep book could have been complimented by a Free City book.
Ditto here. My complaint isn't with Eberron itself but the oft-offered argument that Greyhawk was yanked either because it wasn't popular or because Wizards didn't want to split their customer base. (I've seen no proof GH lacks fans -- quite the contrary -- and if Wizards was worried about splitting their base, why add a new world? The arguments don't stand.)
Admittedly, from what I've seen of Eberron, it isn't to my taste. It seems to add elements that don't really jive with what I would consider traditional swords & sorcery, but that's personal preference and I do intend to give the world a harder look in the interest of fairness. Clearly Eberron has its fans as well.
(I do hope the Eberrron fans, especially those who joined the game in recent years, likewise give Greyhawk a look and do not simply dismiss it. I've heard some ridiculous claims, such as the implication that Greyhawk lacks intrigue, that demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge about the campaign world. I'm personally always interested to hear what anyone enjoys most about "their" chosen campaign world.)
My disappointment with Wizards (and at times with TSR before it) is the lame support GH has often received. Greyhawk really needs a strong voice, in the way that Greenwood was the voice of the 'Realms years ago.
It all depends on what you expect out of a campaign setting. I you never really plan on using the background and you just want some ready made town names and population figures so you know what your characters can buy between adventures, then they aren't that different.
On the other hand, if your PCs want to know what kind of organizations (knighthoods, churches, secret societies) they can join, and what kind of organizations and NPCs will be keeping tabs on them, or why certain monsters live where, then the two are very different. The Invoked Devestation and the Rain of Colorless Fire evoke a differnt feel than the Fall of Netheril, and the feel of Waterdeep is much differnt than the feel of Greyhawk.
I guess my point is that if the little details matter, then the two settings are very different. And I don't know many fans of either setting that DON'T care about the little details.
I don't know if this will help, but think of it this way . . . is the Marvel Universe and the DC Universe that different from one another? They both have superheroes running around in tights saving the world from supervillains, so they are pretty much the same, right?
Grey Hawk and Forgotten Realms just never seemed that different.
KnightErrantJR is right. Superficially the worlds are similar (and I may be the only Greyhawk fan in existance that actually likes the Forgotten Realms to some degree), but when you look deeper the campaign worlds are different.
Magic seems more prevalent on Toril ('Realms) than on Oerth (Greyhawk). In the 'Realms running into a 15th+ level wizard isn't that hard, unlike Greyhawk. Each has various evil groups, but they are different in flavor. The 'Realms is fairly well defined, whereas many areas of Greyhawk are, if you pardon the pun, still pretty grey. Both worlds also vary in flavor simply because of the differences in the styles of Greenwood and Gygax.
There are similarities, of course. The machinations of Halaster and his Undermountain don't seem that far removed from Zagyg's Castle Greyhawk, but again the style of the creator shows on examination.
i play in a Forgotten Realms game. i really like the deific powers of Toril...
i run a Greyhawk game. the history of the world, the NPCs, and interesting cultures keep me coming back for more (and writing scenarios for my players 3 times a month).
i own every Eberron book printed. the tone of the setting is very different (swashbuckling-ly good, one might type...), and i like the way artificers and their creations have been detailed.
i bash no setting; however, i would *really* like to see some hardbacks for Greyhawk that had genuine GH material in them.
outside the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, how many times have the Silent Ones of Keoland been written about? how does your character join this organization of magicians? what would it gain her? what would be required of her?
look up the Church of the Silver Flame, and you'll find info like this. there are several books where the villains of the Realms are detailed; take a look for info on the Zhentarim or the Red Wizards and your search will be pretty quick.
i'm not seeing these detail-level books for Greyhawk that the other settings get, even though there's still a loyal fan-base out there.
so, while there are no hardbacks being published set in GH (with the Shackled City campaign arc being one HUGE exception), i'm relying on Dungeon to provide my GH fix.
until Paizo decides to drop GH from their roster of publish-able worlds, i'll read Dungeon and Dragon. thanks again, Erik!
I like both FR and GH. GH is more like an old friend, though, as I was running the FR when I quit playing AD&D altogether in 2002. When our gaming group re-started with 3.5 in late 2004, I went to GH for the simplicity (that 3rd edition FR sourcebook is daunting in size!) and found that I really missed GH, having run the Realms from 1987 to 2002.
It was said above that GH and FR are superficially similar, and thats probably the point: to the casual observer who has to decide for a game world, the differences are not obvious. Thats perhaps where Eberron comes into play. That world seems to be obvious different (I don´t know much about it) and offers another choice, with some cross-over elements to other genres which perhaps cater to those gamers tastes who do not want a pure sword-and-sorcery setting, but like some, say sci-fi or space opera elements (these warforged seem to me to be something similar to intelligent robots like in star wars, for example).
Imagine a new gamer standing in the FLGS and having to choose between GH, FR and EB. The store clerk tells him probably that GH and FR are similar, but Eberron is completely different. So the newbie asks, whats the point between GH and FR ?
I´m quite aware of the very vocal fanbase for GH (I´m a GH fan myself, too), but I´m really not sure if it is big enough to support new sourcebooks. Volume might be mistaken for numbers there.
One other aspect: WotC would have to take the LG campaign into account if they would produce new sourcebooks, I think. This would probably be a _lot_ of work and would make the price too high. But if I would play in LG and there were new source books, I would _expect_ them to incorporate information from the LG campaing naturally. It would be nice if they would publish a yearly summary of the events in LG, but I don´t think we will see this.
enough rambling
Stefan
In all honesty, I'd be happiest with a simple Player's Guide to Greyhawk. Most Greyhawk DMs are familiar enough or will obsessively become familiar enough with the setting's details. However, new players to Greyhawk or D&D as a whole won't know anything about Greyhawk from the PC perspective. Greyhawk was supposed to be the default core setting, but we have seen that change with the introduction of Revised Core Rulebooks. There's virtually nothing to help the average player understand anything about D&D's default setting.
A Player's Guide to Greyhawk would allow for the inclusion of history (even if it's reprinted from the LGG), details for the various human races, regional feats, prestige classes, magic items, artifacts, expanded deities, and perhaps a few "What do you know?" tables with Knowledge check DCs.
Combine this with the D&D Gazetteer and the freely available History of the Greyhawk Wars, and player's will probably have most of what they need to know about the setting and really get into it.
Are there really that few people who play in Greyhawk?...
I used to think so. Over the past year or so I've changed my mind, seeing the success of LG and the number of fans on the Dungeon boards and elsewhere. I think WotC should recognize and exploit us :)
Please!
Is supporting a campaign that people play that dangerous?
It was for TSR. One of the factors that hurt them was 'market fragmentation;' there were too many campaign worlds, few of them making much money. It hurt their profits -- perhaps fatally.
IMHO WotC won't support a campaign that doesn't promise lots of spinoff products. FR has more novels than you can shake a stick at. I'm sure there will be (if there aren't already) Eberron novels. And whatever other garbage -- errr, products they can think of :)
For what it's all worth.
Jack
who buys Dungeon for as long as and only so long as Greyhawk content remains.
From my side of the DM's screen I can tell you that Erik and the boys at Paizo are still asking for Greyhawk material having just submitted 4 adventures and 2 backdrop articles I'm involved in to them this week. Should these find their way into the published pages of Dungeon, GH fans should enjoy lots of ooey, gooey material on Bone March, the Perrenland area (Exag, specifically), and the Yatil Mountains.
I've been puzzling over the lack of ANY Greyhawk specific source books published for several years now. We are a hungry crowd... literally starving for it. It would sell and sell very well. We've been vocal about it. We've done everyhing short of breakding the doors down at WotC and taking the suits hostage until our demands are met. Yet, nothing.
There's got to be someone with a serious vendetta against GH in a position of power. A vast conspiracy, even.
Well, thank Pelor that we can depend on Dungeon for our occasional fix.
hi,
GH, the first, the last, the ...
I would like to see more Greyhawk based adventures.
Sorry, but that´s the only reason why I walk regulary to my store to ask about and buy the latest issue of the dungeon.
I like the FR - setting too. But, as one of the more aged players, starting with GH in the early eighties, I can´t imagine d20 without GH.
greetings
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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outside the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, how many times have the Silent Ones of Keoland been written about? how does your character join this organization of magicians? what would it gain her? what would be required of her?
It's somewhat difficult to track down, but Living Greyhawk Journal #4 contains a 12-article on the Silent Ones of Keoland written by Living Greyhawk Gazetteer co-author Gary Holian and edited by yours truly. All of those questions are answered in the article.
None of which changes your point, of course. :)
--Erik
It's somewhat difficult to track down, but Living Greyhawk Journal #4 contains. . .
thanks for the heads-up! i'll begin digging thru my various sources of gaming material searching for that one...
None of which changes your point, of course. :)--Erik
indeed. indeed...
could Mr. Greer be right? is there a vast, nefarious conspiracy or an executive with something to settle? or does Hasbro just really dislike Gygax that much?
ever pensive, i remain --
-peace is for the conquered!-
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I'm not sure if the old Gygax animosity still reigns with this Hasbro regime. I think its the economic factors purely.
WotC is using passive effort to keep Greyhawk supported. They allow Living Greyhawk to flourish, but you have to play to enjoy those benefits and they allow Paizo to publish Greyhawk as well with their oversight. So in their mind they ARE supporting GH and it costs them nothing to maintain.
Maybe Erik Mona can answer this... do you know why the links to Living Greyhawk Journal info have been disabled from the WOTC site? Is this info meant only for RPGA members, or is there another online source?
As much as I love Greyhawk, and I love it a lot, I think that it is impossible to kickstart it again given living Greyhawk. I am not prepared to accept the history of the flaneass post CY 585 just because so goofy triad somewhere else in the world mucked around with my favorite country.
I found this happened with forgotten Realms and all those stupid novels, which is why I stopped running the Realms and moved back to Greyhawk. Shade city nuking Tilverton indeed!
So, I guess I would buy Greyhawk material, but only if it detailed areas not really examined before in detail (sea of dust, land of black ice, southern hemisphere..) or, went back in history and set some 3.5 edition adventures in CY 550-C576.
I don't worry about the Living Greyhawk stuff at all. To me GH is my personal D&D playpen. I do like the LGG and the Greyhawk wars and there's a slight possiblity that my current CY576 campaign will mirror the events in the LGG, but I doubt it.
I'm starting to take peeks at Eberron, thanks to Dryder's motivation. I got the Sharn HC and I'm working on getting the campaign setting and....well, it's hard to be negative about something that someone I know is so enthusiastic about (Dryder!).
