I have changed the economics in my campaign. I didn't like the fact that the party would be walking around with a fortune by 4th lvl. And that the hoi polloi get by on one silver a day when the PC's take a one day trip into a gnoll cave and come out with 6000gp worth of goods, goods that the gnolls were assumed to have stolen from the village. Well maybe they attacked a noble, or a merchant caravan, thats all fine but the players come across troves like this every week. How many nobles and merchants would be left in the world by the end of the year?
I changed the system so that one gp is the equivalent to $10 US dollars. But I left magic Item prices alone. This has changed a few things. One nobles are now much richer and can afford heavy enchantments and protectins on there homes and goods. Two, low level NPC's, commoners and such, have a good chance of having a decent weapon (instead of just clubs and walking sticks). Three a profetional NPC might have something valuable that goes with there job. (a succesful inkeeper might have an unseen servant permenantly, or the 2nd lvl warrior captain of the village guard might have a masterwork sword). Three, at low levels especially the PCs are hurt by loong periods of down time. A nice Inn might charge 8 or nine gold a night. Four, when they walk into town with 3000 gp in loot after one night of work they are still rolling in cash but it won't last them long with expensive tastes and split four ways. Five, if the PC's ask for an item with no price or pricing formula I can make up an ad hoc value easily by comparing it to what it would cost today.
So far it doesn't seem to have posed any problems but I was wondering if anyone else had done something similar or if I'm not seeing something I should. I guess I'm looking as I leap here but better late than never.
For my next campaign, I'm cutting all treasure awards from published adventures by a factor of 10, adopting the "silver standard." Prices for everything except basic foodstuffs shall remain the same, however. The buying power and wealth by level guidelines are too Monty Haul for my tastes.
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?
Page 92 of the 1st edition AD&D DMG, where Gary Gygax talks about rewards, treasure and placement of magic items to keep the game from becoming a glitzy 1970's gameshow by giving PC's too much treasure, especially magic items.
I'll never go back to 1st edition, but much of the 1st DMG is timeless, classic advice on how to be a good DM.
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?
Monty Haul describes a game that has $$$$$; often $ are the focus of the players in such a game.
Anyway, I don't like the wealth figures in the DMG but altering them to any significant degree has a major impact on the game. For example, think of the basic class stats: Attack bonus goes up with level, while Armor class is based solely on magic items (with the measly exception of the monk). (I've considered giving each class an AC progression based on their AB progression, but that would require revamping every form of AC item in the DMG) In effect, less cash means offense becomes much more effective than defense. In the case of a monster with Power Attack, this means the PCs have a much shorter life expectancy. Of course, if you're going for realism this makes a lot of sense.
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?Page 92 of the 1st edition AD&D DMG, where Gary Gygax talks about rewards, treasure and placement of magic items to keep the game from becoming a glitzy 1970's gameshow by giving PC's too much treasure, especially magic items.
I'll never go back to 1st edition, but much of the 1st DMG is timeless, classic advice on how to be a good DM.
Ahh that was going to be my next guess.
I enjoy letting the PC's have lots of treasure and magic items. I think it gives them more versatility allowing me to throw excedingly complex and difficult challenges at them.
Not that I am judging your DMing I actually wanted to try a low money campaign earlier this year but (was too lazy). I meerly say this to point out that reducing how much stuff they get is not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to reduce how much there stuff is worth relative to the rest of the world.
Hey, anything is cool as long as everyone's having fun.
Monty Haul was the name of a game show host "Let's Make a Deal!"
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Anyway, I don't like the wealth figures in the DMG but altering them to any significant degree has a major impact on the game. For example, think of the basic class stats: Attack bonus goes up with level, while Armor class is based solely on magic items (with the measly exception of the monk). (I've considered giving each class an AC progression based on their AB progression, but that would require revamping every form of AC item in the DMG) In effect, less cash means offense becomes much more effective than defense. In the case of a monster with Power Attack, this means the PCs have a much shorter life expectancy. Of course, if you're going for realism this makes a lot of sense.
Iron Heroes sheds most magical trappings, transforming armor into a form of DR while granting players a Defense bonus based on their level and class- it's somewhat of a drastic change, I suppose, but it might be wirth taking a look at. I ran a low-magic game (2x cost of magic items and restricted caster levels) and used Unearthed Arcana's Defense system as a substitute for armor, but found it too generous given it's attempts to reward those characters who could wear the heaviest armor without penalizing them in the slightest...
Anyways, it's a tricky issue as a whole, but if one were to explore options for enhacign PC survival (Vitality/Wound) while lowering their armor assets (2x cost of magic enchancements), it may just strike a rare balance.
2 coppers worth
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?Page 92 of the 1st edition AD&D DMG, where Gary Gygax talks about rewards, treasure and placement of magic items to keep the game from becoming a glitzy 1970's gameshow by giving PC's too much treasure, especially magic items.
I'll never go back to 1st edition, but much of the 1st DMG is timeless, classic advice on how to be a good DM.
I'm with you on that one f2k! I remember just like it was yesterday when i first cut my teeth on some of the older editions...and they were FUN! But i don't think i can ever go back to that stage of innocence? LOL
Be safe all.
Now that I know exactly what monty haul is I can say that is not what I want to create. The PC's will not be getting more gear than normal. I do use the standard wealth by level as a guideline though. So they will have all of the armor and AC buffs they want. All I did was put a massinve amount of inflation on the gold peice. Where 5 gold peices could but you a cow. Now it takes 50 gp to buy one (relative to the price of a $500 head of cattle today) any actual ranchers feel free to correct my complete guess. Magic items and masterwork weapons are the same price however. As are other mundane items that I feel fit my price formula. Now A masterwork weapon is worth 6 or 7 cows, still a big deal. But you can't pawn a single weapon and start a good sized ranch.
So if that is a little clearer I ask again. Is there something wrong with this? I'm always careful when I tweak the rules because I have had some bad experiances in the past with poor choices and I was hoping for some input from you guys since the majority of you have been DMing far longer than I have.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Now that I know exactly what monty haul is I can say that is not what I want to create. The PC's will not be getting more gear than normal. I do use the standard wealth by level as a guideline though. So they will have all of the armor and AC buffs they want. All I did was put a massinve amount of inflation on the gold peice. Where 5 gold peices could but you a cow. Now it takes 50 gp to buy one (relative to the price of a $500 head of cattle today) any actual ranchers feel free to correct my complete guess. Magic items and masterwork weapons are the same price however. As are other mundane items that I feel fit my price formula. Now A masterwork weapon is worth 6 or 7 cows, still a big deal. But you can't pawn a single weapon and start a good sized ranch.
So if that is a little clearer I ask again. Is there something wrong with this? I'm always careful when I tweak the rules because I have had some bad experiances in the past with poor choices and I was hoping for some input from you guys since the majority of you have been DMing far longer than I have.
I'd probably go the other way and adjust prices rather than increase the amount of gold required to purchase something.
Thus, rather than increasing the price of a cow, I would decrease the price of a mw sword. Then you just decrease the value of the treasure given out by a corresponding factor. If you decrease the value of all treasure/weapons/armor and leave the price of basic comodities the same, that should achieve the same effect.
The easiest way to do it is to switch the prices of all weapons/armor/magic items to sps. Say a longsword costs 8gps right now. Change the price to 8sps and suddenly a normal person can afford it after a week's worth of work. The great thing about this system is that it is easy to do. Everytime you hand out coins in a module, just switch them down to the next lowest value.
I use a sp base system in games I run, though I don't fiddle with the prices as you are planning (ex: a day's wage in my game is 1 cp). The best thing about this system is that when the characters actually receive a gold piece, they do a little dance of joy.
And if they ever manage to get their hands on a platinum piece....
I have changed the economics in my campaign. I didn't like the fact that the party would be walking around with a fortune by 4th lvl. And that the hoi polloi get by on one silver a day when the PC's take a one day trip into a gnoll cave and come out with 6000gp worth of goods, goods that the gnolls were assumed to have stolen from the village. Well maybe they attacked a noble, or a merchant caravan, thats all fine but the players come across troves like this every week. How many nobles and merchants would be left in the world by the end of the year?
While I had the old 1st edition DMG cracked open, let me quote what Gary Gygax wrote about this very thing:
"Two ogres have accumulated a treasure of over 2000gp in wealth, but it is obviously not in a pair of 1000gp gems. Rather, they have gathered an assortment of goods whose combined value is well in excess of 2000gp. Rather than stocking a treasure which the victorious player characters can easily gather and carry to the surface, you maiximize the challenge by making it one which the ogres would naturally have acrued through their process of raiding."
Here's the list: Many copper and silver coins a large wooden chest, pewter vessels worth several hundred gp, an inlaid wooden coffer worth 100gp holds a finely wrought silver necklace worth 350gp, Food and provisions scattered about amount to another few hundred or so gp and one of the ogres wears a badly tanned fur cape, which will still fetch about 50gp. There are several good helmets (used as drinking cups), a bardiche and a two handed sword with silver wire wrapped around its lapis lazuli pommel, making it three times normal value.....
While I had the old 1st edition DMG cracked open, let me quote what Gary Gygax wrote about this very thing:"Two ogres have accumulated a treasure of over 2000gp in wealth, but it is obviously not in a pair of 1000gp gems. Rather, they have gathered an assortment of goods whose combined value is well in excess of 2000gp. Rather than stocking a treasure which the victorious player characters can easily gather and carry to the surface, you maiximize the challenge by making it one which the ogres would naturally have acrued through their process of raiding."
Here's the list: Many copper and silver coins a large wooden chest, pewter vessels worth several hundred gp, an inlaid wooden coffer worth 100gp holds a finely wrought silver necklace worth 350gp, Food and provisions scattered about amount to another few hundred or so gp and one of the ogres wears a badly tanned fur cape, which will still fetch about 50gp. There are several good helmets (used as drinking cups), a bardiche and a two handed sword with silver wire wrapped around its lapis lazuli pommel, making it three times normal value.....
Thas fine and sounds a lot like what the treasure my pc's would find. The problem I have is that the "badly tanned fur cape" is worth 50gp, thats well over a years work for a common laborer. For a crappy scrap of fur that an ogre has been stinking up. It does not matter what the treasure actually is, it's the number value that irks me. I don't like the fact that a first lvl character arrives with some decent gear and hopefully a little spare change, and then they go fight some goblins. A bunch of sorry little idgits that somehow, despite being way way to weak to steal from anyone with actual money, ended up with a dozen times what the characters have. And the characters are far more powerful.
Again, I wan't the PC's, NOT to have less items or gear, what I do want is a monetary system that doesn't make the characters relative millionares at low levels and Bill Gate's law staff by 8th.
For my next campaign, I'm cutting all treasure awards from published adventures by a factor of 10, adopting the "silver standard." Prices for everything except basic foodstuffs shall remain the same, however. The buying power and wealth by level guidelines are too Monty Haul for my tastes.
When I started playing DnD, that would be in the early 80's ugh I am old, I would go by the 1 gp=$10 U.S. That was some time ago and with inflation I would now make it $20, look how the price of gasoline and cigarettes has increased since then. So using these prices some common prices come in at; cow=$200 backpack=$40 alchemical lab $10,000 hourglass $500 guard dog $500 noble outfit $1500 heavy horse $4000 warship $500,000 mansion 2,000,000. Not too bad some prices could be tweeked. As far as the poor maid who makes 1 sp/day we have to look outside the U.S. lifestyle, because that is not DnD or medieval. Those two economies have a much greater lower class and don't have minimum wage. I am thinking to a mentioning on Diamond Lake and the residential buildings represented about 5-10% of the population. So that would mean 10-20 people/building. DnD is essentially 3rd world.
As far as daily wages I could see possibly increasing them somewhat. I do believe that with the inclusion of 1-20th level commoners and experts there are some good wages to be made. A first level commoner with a +7 skill could garner 3 sp/day a 10th level commoner could have a skill of +17 or higher and then make 23sp/day or more. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on my suggestions.
I too don't like it when my players become instant millionairs by looting the local Gnoll Caves. I try (I really do) to give out less treasure, to make the PCs appreciate that +1 bastard sword they'll eventually find around their third level.
I like it when the group is careful with their money. When they pool their earnings to buy a better suit of armor for the group's fighter.
This leads to the first problem. The PCs are now collecting every peice of junk they can later sell to buy more stuff. I've seen my group arrive once at the entrance to a dungeon with a big cart pulled by two horses (as if the gnolls in the caves asked the players to help them move).
But then it happens... They come across a +2 ring of protection and cash it in for about five thousand gold peices. From then on, coppers and silvers are just left there or thrown away.
There just doesn't seem to be a reasonable balance of item cost and treasure found. I don't know what to do.
Ultradan
Oh I forgot to add that a trained mercenary, yes there are mercenary soldiers in the world still, can earn anywhere from $100,000-$500,000 per year. That is from Soldier of Fortune magazine. So adventurers having a boatload of money is realistic in some respects. One does have to survive of course.
I found that the Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe book by Expeditious Retreat press is a pretty good resource regarding medieval-styel economics. There is so much detail in that book on determining the value of manors, agriculture, the impact of cities and the church--it's the one non WotC sourcebook that I crack open on a regular basis.
Also, most coins in my campaign are dime size and weight, so about 200 coins = 1 pound. I base this on a couple of articles I read in Dragon magazine (#63--"For the sake of change") and Dragon #80 "How many coins in a coffer?"
I want to keep the adventurers hungry--right now with the wealth by level guidelines and the amount of treasure they're hauling out of the published adventures I'm running, they're extravagantly fat and happy and spending with giddy abandon.
I want 100gp to be worth something....hell, I want copper to be worth something. Even dropping the wealth they find by 90% is still going to make them the richest non-nobility around.....well, it isn't going to happen until next campaign because my first 3.5 campaign was going to be run strictly by the book, so to speak.
When I was in Nepal, you could get a room for about $4 per night, (you could get a "good" room at the Kathmandu Guest House with its own bath and shower, attached garden, tv, and local phone for about $20),a soda was $0.07, and you could hire a porter (to carry about 100lbs on your behalf for about $1 per day (though we paid ours more than that).
Parts of China are similar - I paid $8 a night for one bed in a four bed room in Bejing (though that was a few years ago).
Basically, Baramay is correct we live in the UAE and a house maid, who basically works a 16 hour day, can be hired for about $200 per month, and still be expected to pay for her own food (though housing is generally provided). We pay quite a bit more - but she is taking care of my kids, with toal access to my house - I don't want her digruntled. Which cold be a good campaign hook - "the disgruntled maid".
Do the costs convert well to DnD in Medieval Guide? I don't remember if it was medieval guild or Fields of Blood but one of them was very well done but did not convert well to DnD and I did not have the time to do a massive conversion. I do remember the crime section being great, if only all adventurers realized what punishments came with death sentences they would be more careful in civilized areas.
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?
You just gave your age away - as does Fairwell to Kings in the next post.
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?You just gave your age away - as does Fairwell to Kings in the next post.
LOL....that's exactly what I was thinking when I explained who/what Monty Haul is. I thought Monty Haul had entered D&D vernacular as a permanent fixture, but I guess not....
I have changed the economics in my campaign. I didn't like the fact that the party would be walking around with a fortune by 4th lvl. And that the hoi polloi get by on one silver a day when the PC's take a one day trip into a gnoll cave and come out with 6000gp worth of goods, goods that the gnolls were assumed to have stolen from the village. Well maybe they attacked a noble, or a merchant caravan, thats all fine but the players come across troves like this every week. How many nobles and merchants would be left in the world by the end of the year?
I have to agree with you that something just does not add up in this picture. I'd say the worst problem is the peasants living on their measly 1 SP a day. Possibly the quickest and easiest fix is to modify that and the hireling prices. I did that and got the slight side benifit out of the deal that I could modify it by region so the richest kingdoms have wealth levels 5 times that of those that are most poor.
Still this is a band aid solution. In a game about people who kill things for Phat Lewt there really is not much ryme or reason behind the economic system. The whole economic system needs to be explored in much greater depth and then spelled out. What I really want is not only a system in which all parts seem to mesh but one in which its then possible to modify. Its one thing to consider the world in terms of a magical ,edival society - but prices should reflect the rarity of magic. In Eberron magic is litterly everywere and its value should fall - it should be much higher in Iron Hero's.
also I want to be able to consider the economic system from more then just the point of view of a magic medival society. For one thing medival was a really long period of time and a lot happened during that period. In the early stages people were really poor and society barely existed over much of the land. By the end of the period even the peasants (those that survived the black death anyway) had some wealth to spare. The attitude of the times changed as well. Our peasant of the earlier period worked to get buy and was mostly a subsistence farmy in anycase. In the laetr period our peasant wants to buy stuff with his or her wealth and is interested in living for the moment.
There is a line of historical thought that contends that our modern capitalist system was stronglyu jumpstarted by 13th century peasants with money to burn and a view that death was arbitrary and potentially just around the corner and living for the moment was the best way to live. Such a situation allegedly led the peasants to specilize into different fields of work - often selling their tiny land plots to each other. Thus leaving some peasants to work what is now larger more reasonably sized plots of land while the others sell him stuff in exchaneg for his excess food.
Anyway a well thought out economic system should be able to handle variations from the mean - what if I want to run a campaign themed on Ancient Greece? It should be possible as should one thats themed on steampunk.
The PCs are now collecting every peice of junk they can later sell to buy more stuff. I've seen my group arrive once at the entrance to a dungeon with a big cart pulled by two horses (as if the gnolls in the caves asked the players to help them move).
But then it happens... They come across a +2 ring of protection and cash it in for about five thousand gold peices. From then on, coppers and silvers are just left there or thrown away.
There just doesn't seem to be a reasonable balance of item cost and treasure found. I don't know what to do.
Ultradan
First of all, who has 5000gp laying around to pay for a +2 ring of protection? Certainly not the local lord, he has to pay his men-at-arms and all that stuff. In a more "reasonable" campaign that is less Monty Haul, there "might" be someone in a major City, who "might" have a desire to buy that ring of protection +2 and "might" have that kind of disposable cash laying around.
If you apply the "silver standard" 5000gp is a whole s##$load of money. The players, if desperate for cash, might have to settle for 750gp if they're really hard up to sell that ring. Chances are, they'll just keep it....
Collecting every piece of junk to sell later on can be a problem at certain levels. You can partially cure that by applying standard laws of economics--the more there is of something, the less it is worth.
Suppose the PC's looted those aforementioned gnoll caves and used their horsey U-Haul to pull out dozens of weapons, suits of armor, moldy tapestries, gnoll furniture, etc.
Who is going to buy that s&#*? The local town militia? Is there a pawnshop in the nearest town? I seriously doubt it.
They might be able to off-load that whole wagonload of crap for 5% of its book value, maybe 10-15% if they take it someplace farther away or spend weeks peddling individual items at market. The PC's have to do that once or twice, they won't want to be the Sanford & Sons of D&D Land any more.
That's my solution...I will be implementing it next campaign, for sure.
I think even in a more normal D&D campaign that applies standard wealth by level guidelines, the assumption that just because the PCs have something to sell--that someone is there to buy it, is just wrong. Realistically, there just isn't that much disposable cash around. Nobles have their wealth tied up in land. Magic shops just shouldn't exist anyway, in my opinion. Finding someone to sell a magic item to for a half-way decent price should be a real challenge.
For the most part I agree with farewell to kings, though I think you have to remember it is a fantasy world not a medieval world.
I sepnd a lot of time in art museums (or at least I did before I moved). There are a lot of truly incredible silver serving trays, inlaid armoirs, tapestries, and even clock rhytons that would shuffle across the table, and weapons that are - well masterwork doesn't come close - the weapons are are art (hence their presence in the museum). The point is that for characters who are engaging creatures with some level of wealth (probably not the gnolls in the example) there is stuff with value and a secondary market for those items, though granted at a discount. I would probably go higher than 5%.
The other thing I would incorporate into my economy is that for lords, church officials, and wealthy merchants at a certain level, their would be a fair number of magic items though maybe not of particularly high value. For example the the art quality weapons I mentioned. Those were often not commissioned directly but were produced to showcase thte creators talent and given as gifts to win favor and gain audience. In a world were magic was real it makes sense to me that such gifts and examples of mastery over ones craft would be magical. Cups that regulate temperature of beverages, platters that are always laden wih perfectly prepared meat, tapestries that replay famous scenes from history, statues that dance, sculptures that wrestle, etc. Thus I think it is not unreasonable to assume that local potentates would have such items, and that some few would trickle down into the local economy.
While I agree that the economy doesn't wholly makes sense - from the perspective of adventurers (whom the game is written to serve) it is reasonably balanced. I also fully agree that not every hamlet should have a magic shop, and that many items although the have a value don't have a market - though in the case of certain magic items you might be able to trade items based on the book values - I think this is the intent of the tables more than the notion of "Sharper Image" stores for magic.
I like to create magic that makes merchats powerful - because I think thats cool - devices that allow members of a trading clan to commuicate so that they can take advantage of local currency fluctuations, price differences on commodities in different markets, perform variations on modern banking through the instantaneous communication of account information, etc. I think this gives merchants a lot of power and creates an exciting dynamic in thte world. It also allows for a world the players can relate to more effectively (as it is more like our own) and streamlines play - characters can work in gp values rather than having to roleplay the liquidation of all treasure (in large cities, if they wish).
I am not an expert on medieval economies, but I think magic would change much, and most of the players know little enough about current economies - to real get into it.
Ultimatley I think the goal is to have mechanisms that move the game along at the pace desired by the players even if the logic goes a little soft.
A little rambling sorry.
There's no doubt the middle ages produced incredible art objects.
I think putting a bit of a limit on disposable cash, both for PC's and for what's available, will make magic items more valuable for what they are and not turn them into disposable lottery tickets.
I realize that it's a fantasy game and not a medieval simulation, but how much fantasy have you read where the characters walk into town to cash in their loot for thousands upon thousands of gold coins--just so they can rush off to the magic store to buy the magic toys they really wanted? Not many, right.
Not much fantastic gaming there--it's the players applying 21st century thinking to a fantasy game. If you have something valuable, you can go sell it anywhere and get lots of money for it. You can then take lots of money and buy whatever you want. Saying its a fantasy world doesn't cover that. If that's what you want in your campaign, no problem.
I'm finding that this concept doesn't fit well with me. I don't like it. My players are going to have get weaned off of it, because right now they get pissy when they can't instantly dispose of their unwanted magical loot and turn it into easily carried gems, jewelry and fantastic spell components.
Part of the problem is that we try to accelerate the game down time and cover a few weeks of shopping and commissioning magic items in a few minutes of game time. That's okay, but an overall reduction of cash, reduction of magic trinkets and reduction of availability of places to sell that stuff is going to add some much needed character to my future campaigns.
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I used to play Harnmaster a loooong time ago (D&D 3.0 won me back) and it had a truly excellent economic model based on the silver penny (d). It worked really well for the ultra-gritty campaign setting, but I don't know how well it would function with D&D wealth by level guidelines. I expect it would break down pretty quickly though.
I'm not really sure they were that dear. One of the most expensive mundane weapons in the book is the Longbow. Thing is every male peasant in england had a longbow at one point. In fact it was the law that they had to practice with the thing just in case their liege lord decided to head off to the wars in France.
Now good armour was expensive but then that 1600 gp for field plate is actually pretty expensive, even for PC types. A well balanced sword was not cheap but I think that the more mundane verity was not that expensive. The things tend to last after all. Scraping all the rust off and sharpening Grandpa's sword could be done if one needed a sword, and spears are generally cheap and common.
In any case if it works for you cool. But make sure your players are on board for this becuase if they are not their going to strip mine your dungeon in order to sell the doors and such desperate for money. In the end having the adventures set up a friggen flea market in order to sell the furniture from the Dungeon of Ultimate Doom is worse then living with them getting 600 gp from the Gnolls.
I'm not sure where I'll place this new addition to my dunce cap collection but, Monty Haul?Page 92 of the 1st edition AD&D DMG, where Gary Gygax talks about rewards, treasure and placement of magic items to keep the game from becoming a glitzy 1970's gameshow by giving PC's too much treasure, especially magic items.
I'll never go back to 1st edition, but much of the 1st DMG is timeless, classic advice on how to be a good DM.
The weird thing is just how much money 1st edition modules had. Especially the stuff Gygax wrote. One of the things you have to do if you convert something like Keep on the Borderlands is cut the treasure down massively.
There seems to be some collective wisdom that 3rd edition games have more money then the older 'grittier' adventures from 1st and 2nd edition. My experience from converting these things is basically the opposite. 1st Edition modules had money coming of your ears and this must be drastically cut back to fit 3rd edition wealth by level guidelines.
I'm not really sure they were that dear. One of the most expensive mundane weapons in the book is the Longbow. Thing is every male peasant in england had a longbow at one point. In fact it was the law that they had to practice with the thing just in case their liege lord decided to head off to the wars in France.
Oh, not true. The longbow required skill and practice to use effectively. That was why peasant levies were equipped with crossbows: they required far less skill and training to master. Firearms even less so, and they replaced the crossbow.
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I used to play Harnmaster a loooong time ago (D&D 3.0 won me back) and it had a truly excellent economic model based on the silver penny (d). It worked really well for the ultra-gritty campaign setting, but I don't know how well it would function with D&D wealth by level guidelines. I expect it would break down pretty quickly though.
Hey Xuttah!
When 3.0 came out, I took a look at converting Harn prices to D&D, and actually they matched up closely on a wide variety of items. in HM, a broadsword is 155d, in D&D it's 15gp (150 sp). I suspect that AD&D and HM used the same medieval price sources.
When I did some d20 conversion dcuments for Kelestia Games, I recommended cutting all wealth levels to 1/3 normal. That made magic and masterwork items very rare and special, and Kept Harnic flavour. But I'm sure it would break the CR system at higher levels though -- to what degree, I'm unsure.
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Oi! Archade!
Yeah, I strongly suspect that the stuff driven classes would suffer after about level 10. I don't think there's enough portable wealth on the whole island to equip 4 10th level characters. ;)
What I really liked about that system was how much you appreciated your rusty spoon and ratty wool tunic. That and magic items were truly priceless. A simple +1 mace was an item of great power. Ah, those were the days...
my old group did the sell anything/everything (including casting mend on rusty/broken stuff) and without one minute of role playing time used, sold, and bought the magic items that they really wanted, had the dmg magic items chapters memorized, and went about their marry way. also, if it wasnt in the dmg, it didnt exist. very core rules oriented.
i dont know when this play style came into vouge, but i dont like it. i remember 1e, we never bought magic items, they all were part of treasure.
the fix: 1) change the mind set of the players. 2) know in advance from who and where items can be purchased. 3) have no large cities, and follow the city wealth guide, ie the maximum value of a single item, and the gold value of the entire city. if nobody in a city has more then 500 gp, then the characters are not selling that +1 sword. or, they can take a huge cut on what they get for it. 4) make new treasure tables that have much more mundane items, then be very cognizant of where they put those items. It is very easy to say that you put the items in a bag of holding or a portable hole, but they cant hold the entirety of a large mundane treasure hoard. 5) rich npcs did not become rich by paying 100, 75, or even 50% of the book price for items. buy low, sell high. offer the pcs 10-20% of book value, and have that the highest that they can get. or have them set up an auction, but then have nobody bid more than 50%. 6) have your world detailed down to every last copper piece in exsitance, and track who has what, and is spending what where.
just some thoughts. i havent been very succuessful at d&d economics 101 either.
in our group, we just give money to people in towns. The church gets gold, the widows/people recently suffering tragedy get gold, and the militia gets left-over weapons and armor. and if we like the mayor, we give him gold too so he can spend it on improvements to the town. and, sometimes, we pay off villians to leave us alone, or at least try and buy their minions away from them so we can get by without fighting.
I think Sexi golems original suggestion will work fine. Better would probably be to reduce the value of all adventurer stuff by 10 (ie magic items, swords, treasure troves) and thereby bring in the defacto silver standard. Of course if you then adopted Sebastians suggestion and had peasants paid 1cp a day you are right back where you started (though without a layer of useless currency --cp).
I always thought it odd that a 1st level mage could carry a staff (free) and spell components and maybe some food and still afford to hire a small group of men at arms to strip a dungeon as long as it only took a few days.
This wont casue problems at high levels because a +3 shield will cost 900gp (not 9000gp) to buy but characters will have 1/10th their cash. This will have no real effect on adventurers but will increase the wealth of non enemy NPC's such as peasants, lords, swords for hire by 10.
Sure you can say the stuff the characters want is not available/hard to get but that doesnt effect the weird economic poverty of a 3rd level warrior hireling compared to a 2nd level PC. (why does the patron evber hire adventurers when they can get 4 times the fighting power for 1/2 the cost)
In my next campaign I am making a magic item light campaign. This means less wealth, less item creation feats, +1 swords as rare (think excalibur as +1 or +2). Oh and less monsters (as goblins will stay a threat for much longer now).
To do this with out completely rewriting the D&D system I have added MIRs. Magic Item Replacement Feasts. These give more customizable options including a boost to AC, fighters get group weapon focus, specialization, etc. Also I am going with a glyph runic magic feel. So I am adding magical tattoos (original price x2 /10 = original price/5).
Magical tattoos will allow people to:
1) Keep magic "items" boost instead of having a trove of actual items.
2) Focus "abilities" through masterwork quality items and armour. (Ex: flaming tattoo oon their hand allows any masterwork item in their hand to be flaming.)
3) Looks cool.
I am actually quite proud about this and excited to see how it all will work.
This gets the magic item dependancy out of the way so I can lower the treasure to 1/5 of normal.
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It occurs to me ... if you cut treasure by 1/3 or 1/10, you'd end up having the equivalent of a lower level of equipment for a PC.
So, with no gp values to reference, I'm guessing here, but if 1/3 of a 10th level PCs equipment makes them 6th level, where in there would the PC fit for fighting CRs? CR 6 to 10, how much are class abilities worth?
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Those were often not commissioned directly but were produced to showcase thte creators talent and given as gifts to win favor and gain audience. In a world were magic was real it makes sense to me that such gifts and examples of mastery over ones craft would be magical. Cups that regulate temperature of beverages, platters that are always laden wih perfectly prepared meat, tapestries that replay famous scenes from history, statues that dance, sculptures that wrestle, etc. Thus I think it is not unreasonable to assume that local potentates would have such items, and that some few would trickle down into the local economy.
I have had an Urban campaign that when Chasing a thief, they followed him into a magical convention-like gathering.The things you mentioned were just some of the items I had to describe... and of course the rest of the thieves guild was there stealing magical items from the vendors. 4 PCs vs 12 thieves turned into 4 PCs plus a animated statue vs 12 thieves and 36 mirror images (from a mirror that "creates a short term helper for the maids to help make your castle clean m'lord" ), a talking portrait that just kept screaming as one of the images used a dirk to slowly shred it, a lamp that shot flame at them (defective so it fried the thief wielding it) and a few other items.
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Oh, not true. The longbow required skill and practice to use effectively. That was why peasant levies were equipped with crossbows: they required far less skill and training to master. Firearms even less so, and they replaced the crossbow.I'm not really sure they were that dear. One of the most expensive mundane weapons in the book is the Longbow. Thing is every male peasant in england had a longbow at one point. In fact it was the law that they had to practice with the thing just in case their liege lord decided to head off to the wars in France.
While they did not require every peasant male to train per se there was a great amount of encouragment to practice longbowmanship
It was the difficulty in using the longbow which led various monarchs of England to issue instructions encouraging their ownership and practice, including the Assize of Arms of 1252 and Edward III's declaration of 1363: "Whereas the people of our realm, rich and poor alike, were accustomed formerly in their games to practise archery - whence by God's help, it is well known that high honour and profit came to our realm, and no small advantage to ourselves in our warlike enterprises... that every man in the same country, if he be able-bodied, shall, upon holidays, make use, in his games, of bows and arrows... and so learn and practise archery." If the people practised archery, it would be that much easier for the King to recruit the proficient longbowmen he needed for his wars. Along with the greater ability of gunfire to penetrate plate armour, it was the amount of time needed to train longbowmen which eventually led to their being replaced by musketmen.
Also
The Assize of Arms of 1252 stated that all "citizens, burgesses, free tenants, villeins and others from 15 to 60 years of age" should be armed. The poorest of them were expected to at least have a bow.
So while it requires great skill to use a longbow the weapon was often used by peasants and many of the villages had longbow militias. In addition, the longbow was used by the English well into the period of guns and blackpowder. The longbow was an integrated and important English symbol. It required skill but it was a skill most English peasants were quite capable of practicing.
There is a reason why Robin Hood, a yeoman, uses a longbow in the 14th century Geste of Robin Hood (which does not take place in the 12th century, by the way). It was a tradition that has continued ever since.
The statement Jeremy made is not completely untrue.
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I am having a deal of problems with wealth in my Ptolus game. The setting provides an easy place for items to be sold with a healthy market to facilitate the sale and purchase of magic items. I made the mistake of running Tomb of Abysthor as written and that made the PCs a bit rich early on. This has plagued the campaign, in my opinion, ever since. I did some damage control but not so much as to be drastic about it. When you make a mistake sometimes its hard to correct it properly. It feels like the spiral begins and it takes a while to pull out of the tailspin.
Some of these suggestions seem good. I know for my next campaign I want to alter wealth levels. I just need to find a good way of doing it.
I've been trying every sort of thing to wiggle out of the wealth by level table. It's infuriating for all the reasons mentioned. I like the idea of everyone running off the wealth per encounter table for whatever starting level they are and then just getting what they get. I don't even know where to begin with magic prices. Those are just insane. Crazy. No one could ever afford anything.
My foundation assumption of D&D is class based (no not character class, economic class). The copper peice is the basic unit of currency of the peasant--most things he buys will be in coppers. Silver is for tradesmen and merchants. Gold is for nobility. Adventurers, living outside society for the most part, straddle the last two brackets.
Basic ammenities for an average traveler amount to about a gp a day. 5sp for a room for the night, 3sp for food, 2sp for ale.
I certainly don't agree with the idea of monsters having certain "treasure tables" that accord them wealth by challenge rating. A lot of really tough things give you no loot. A frost worm don't got nuthin you'd want. Likewise a lot of folks with phat loot are pretty soft targets. This is why banditry is a problem. Pudgy merchants are rich, but relatively helpless. Mostly if you're a hero looking to save the day, loot isn't going to be plentiful.
I would much prefer the idea of bounties on local critters (much like what was actually done with coyotes and whatnot in the old west). You get money for killing monsters, but not a lot and certainly not in the form of bling. Grubby monsters tend to be light on bling.
Magic items? No clue. I tried a 1/10 price slash, but the results of that have been uneven and unsatisfying. I think I might adopt a total reconfigurement of all magic items based on some set criteria like spell level and how often it can be used (charges vs. permanent effects) and then just try to create some catchall price categories that make sense. Nothing like that on hand so far. But when I get something I'll be sure to post it.
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There seems to be some collective wisdom that 3rd edition games have more money then the older 'grittier' adventures from 1st and 2nd edition. My experience from converting these things is basically the opposite. 1st Edition modules had money coming of your ears and this must be drastically cut back to fit 3rd edition wealth by level guidelines.
I think a lot of that was because 1 gp = 1 xp. They cut this out mostly for 2e, though it was still an option for DMs who wanted a reason to move xp up a little faster. I was glad to dump the whole wealth = experience though for 3e.
I don't have a problem with magic item prices. In fact, they work great. I just don't have many cities big enough to buy anything in that range. when there is, it's because it's a huge traiding center. The equivilent of Rome or ancient London. I have had successful adventures just based on getting to a city big enough to buy or comiission a desired magic item.
So np, anything bigger than a +2 bonus weapon is not likely to be for sale in general.
But ad for peopple not ebhing able to afford things? A +5 sword is the same as a castle, or the pyramids, except it's easier to transport and lasts longer. magic magic items are created for major lords and kings. They may spend years trying to gather the money for them. Once they do, they become herilooms. And when demons come sack the castle, some are taken by the demons, some are stolen by the defenders, and some are hidden in secret levesl below the castle to be found by aqdventurers in 100 years.
Magic magic item creators become the DnD equivilent of modern arms dealers. Want a destroyer? Sure, you can buy that off the open market, if you have the coin.
I do make coins 100 to the lb, and I specify that "gold peices" aren;t pure gold, they're a wel-accepoted mix of metasl with good color and durability. That way if you find a statue of pure silver, it can be worth much mroe than it's weight in sp if I so decide.
Beyond that, we shrug and go have a good itme. If I wanted an ecomonicl modle, I'd play MULE.
Beyond that, we shrug and go have a good time. If I wanted an economic model, I'd play MULE.
Heh. MULE...wow, that brings back memories.
I lifted the Wealth system from d20 Modern - I think I like that better instead of nitpicking details about how many pence the character might have.
I use the system pretty much as is so I do stick to town value limits, that helps alot. I also try to reign in magic item sales/availability to expendable items (potions, scroll, low charged wands).
The one thing I find helpful is actually to have laws (different from one place to the other) for the sale and ownership of 'dangerous' magic in most cities. A wand of fireball can be strickly army-issued and magic weapons can require guild membership. It creates some limits, role-playing opportunity and cost adjutement for item bought 'under the table'.
