This is a huge beef of mine that I've never fully backed as a DM or as a player and this thread stems from the Trapfinding thread (since that thread was partially hyjacked), so much of what I have problems with is not universally applicable to all skills.
In Short, is taking 20 the same as rolling a 20 as others have suggested?
To me, and I admit that I might be a bit old school on this one, rolling a '1' is an automatic failure, even if the roll is unnecessary, and rolling a '20' is an automatic success, even if the roll is not enough to overcome the DC (barring impossible acts).
Using the above as a basis means that if a character says "I take 20" they actually mean that they have just rolled a 20 and thereby achieved an automatic success. This is THE WORST MECHANIC I have ever heard of with regards to role playing. Let's say a rogue strolls into a room filled with traps, invisible trunks of loot, secret doors, and clues and calmly states that he intends to take 20 on his search check. If the assumption is that he will eventually roll a 20 anyway if he continues to search each 5'x5' square of the room, then what's the point of placing anything covert in the room in the first place? I actually had a player state that, since they were taking 20 anyway, I should just tell them everything that is of interest in the room!
I understand the concept of moving play along without having to deal with the delay of excessive dice rolling, but there has got to be a better way of dealing with the take 20 rule that to just disallow it on certain skills.
Now this is only my opinion...
If your group is taking twenty in every room they find, then yes, there's something wrong with the way you guys play.
Here's how I see it: Searching a small log cabin after the PCs killed the only occupant and taking twenty to do it sounds reasonable... Spend twenty minutes in my room and I'll bet you that you'll find anything I could of possibly have hidden there.
Taking twenty to search a room in a monster-filled dungeon: Searching makes noise! Roll 1d6, on a 1 or 2 a monster from somewhere else in the dungeon strolls by. This should discourage players from doing it in every room.
Now taking twenty to search every room in a dungeon after clearing the entire dungeon... Sounds good too, just calculate twenty minutes times the number of rooms. This procedure could take a day or two. With, maybe, an occasional encounter from a monster that entered the now-cleared dungeon.
In my games, taking twenty just gives you twenty (plus bonuses) and is not an automatic success. So if something is small and invisible (say, DC35), then it's a real possibility that the players will miss it. Too bad!
Ultradan
I don't have a problem with this, since I only allow critical successes and failures on attack rolls and saving throws, not on skill checks. So you take 20? you add +8? Well, the DC was 30, so tough luck. Only problem with that is that a group willing to "take 20" on a search check is going to find everything they possibly CAN find, because obviously if the DC is higher than their skill mod +20, then they can't find it regardless, barring magic. My solution to your problem would be to remove the crit success/fail fom everything but attack rolls & saves. When I want something to be hidden REALLY well, I set the DC by the following formula: 20+ (Highest character level in the party +3). This means that only a character with Search as a maxed-out class skill can find it, and then only with a 20, rolled or taken. otherwise, I make it so that only a divination spell can find it, making one of the spellcasters use up some of their resources in order to find what they're looking for.
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Once again, I find myself wholeheartedly agreeing with Ultradan. Taking 20 should not be an auto-success. If you don't have a high enough modifier to = the DC with the 20, you can't find the search item. I would only punish the group for taking 20 if they were really abusing it, like every room they enter: kill occupants: take 20: rinse and repeat.
my2
FH
I have to agree. IMC, the only thing taking 20 (or 10) does is give you an automatic 20 (or 10) on the die roll.
While I do allow for critical successes/failures on skill rolls, I use a variant rule that I modified from the Epic rules: When you roll a 20 (or a 1), you roll again and add that score to the 20 (or 1) you rolled previously (and any other bonuses). This allows players to get lucky and get hit that 35 DC on the 3rd lvl adventure, but also allows them to not drop their sword as a 20th lvl fighter taking on a kobold.
To me, and I admit that I might be a bit old school on this one, rolling a '1' is an automatic failure, even if the roll is unnecessary, and rolling a '20' is an automatic success, even if the roll is not enough to overcome the DC (barring impossible acts).
Using the above as a basis means that if a character says "I take 20" they actually mean that they have just rolled a 20 and thereby achieved an automatic success. This is THE WORST MECHANIC I have ever heard of with regards to role playing.
I agree that's a pretty awful mechanic. Of course, it only works that way because you are choosing to treat natural 1's and 20's as automatic failures and successes.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to change the rules of the game and then complain that those changes produce absurd results.
Of course, it only works that way because you are choosing to treat natural 1's and 20's as automatic failures and successes.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to change the rules of the game and then complain that those changes produce absurd results.
Actually, I was not aware that the take 20 rule was not just like rolling a natural 20 until I asked the question and I certainly appreciate all the helpful advice that other DM's and players post.
My question now is this: in another post it was postulated that a PC may take 20 at any time when he has the time to spare to perform some skill for as long as it takes to get it right. It was further suggested that this is because you would be rolling a die so often that a 20 would eventually turn up.
Using that assumption it is easy to see that if a PC is tied up with rope he could take 20 to eventually free himself - having been tied up in the past I know that with much wiggling, straining, and/or twisting of joints you can eventually break free of almost any rope binding. However, what if one of those 'virtual' rolls was a 1? Does that mean that you just made it slightly more difficult to untie yourself? I would argue that it might.
Using a different example of trapfinding under the same set of logic produces even more dire results. How exactly are you searching for traps? Are you poking a big 10' pole onto each 5' square to check for pits or are you inching your way into the room on your belly, jabbing a dagger into the cracks on the floor? In either case you are physically doing something to search for that trap. What if you roll a 1? Shouldn't that mean that you inadvertantly set it off? Wouldn't be so bad if it was an illusionary floor trap that was really a pit with poisoned pikes at the bottom - I'd say that was even extra clever and maybe worthy of some extra xp for creativity - but if it was a pressure plate that sealed the room and released poison gas it would be a bad thing (TM).
Like I mentioned eariler, I think that some skills lend themselves very well to taking 20 - typically those that do not have the onus of possible damage to them. Look at Hide as a great example of this: any child can hide pretty darn well if you count to 100, but counting to only ten means that only the very best Hide and Seek players will find the choicest locations. Climb is another great example: if you've got all day to get up the side of that 100 foot cliff and you brought rope and tackle chalk for your wee fingers, then the challenge is lessened to the extent that no roll (taking 20) is evenreally needed, but have a pack of wolves chasing your PC up a tree and the likelihood that your PC will fall is much greater. Heal, on the other hand, is a skill not able to taken as a 20 because if you miss by 5 (or 10) or more you damage the person you are trying to fix.
IMHO, the HOW is much more important than just saying that you're doing it. Maybe it's just me.
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to cite the Player's Handbook, you can take 20 only if "you are faced with no threats or distraction, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure".
So, can you take 20 on Climb? Surely not, cause there is the threat of falling (may depend on the height).
Can you take 20 on Search? You can try, but, depending on the kind of trap, it could probably go off, if you make a mistake.
To take 20 can be an abbreviation in a harmless situation (important: of judged harmless by the DM!!!). But there is no automatism which garantuees success, and, if the DM is mean enough, there are plenty of opportunities for failure. Which means: No "take 20".
to cite the Player's Handbook, you can take 20 only if "you are faced with no threats or distraction, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure".
So, can you take 20 on Climb? Surely not, cause there is the threat of falling (may depend on the height).
Can you take 20 on Search? You can try, but, depending on the kind of trap, it could probably go off, if you make a mistake.
To take 20 can be an abbreviation in a harmless situation (important: if judged harmless by the DM!!!). But there is no automatism which garantuees success, and, if the DM is mean enough, there are plenty of opportunities for failure. Which means: No "take 20".
Excellent response! Thanks Wormys!
A couple things to keep in mind is that taking 20 means you are spending 20 times as long as normal to be thorough. Not all skills take the same amount of time. Some can be done in a single round while others take 1 minute or longer so 20 rounds or 20 minutes-possibly longer. Also, remember that multiple failures are involved, so skills like Craft which are measured in days and weeks of time would just take too dang long and it gaurantees ruining the materials. In fact, for that reason, Craft is not a candidate for skills that you can take 20 on.
As has been said before, taking 20 is great for moving the game along, but you should always remind your players that it also means a lot of failures and automatically triggering traps if any are in the area as well as very time consuming. Monsters in dungeons often move around and there is no reason you shouldn't have some just happen by to remind players of that fact.
One last note, always double check a skill's description to make sure you can take 20 on it. Not all of them allow it and of course danger and distraction make it impossible anyway.
When you find your players starting to approach searches and other take 20 activities carelessly and too frequently maybe it's time to remind them of the dangers sometimes involved...
OK so most of these arguments can be solved by really reading the PHB pgs 65-86.
pg. 65 - "Taking 20: When you have plenty of time ... , you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20." ... "Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fial many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure ... your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she completes the task" ..."Common 'take 20' skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock and Search."
pg 66 - "Try again: ... If the skill doesn't allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or of a failure carries penalty (such as with the Climb skill), you can't take 20.
Trying again
Appraise: You cannot try again
Balance: Does not specify, but comeon if you fail you fall
Bluff: Yes, but not advised as attitudes change radically on a fail
Climb: Does not specify, see balance
Concentration: Yes, although success does not cancel out previous failures
Craft: Does not specify, but if you fail you use up resources
Decipher Script: No
Diplomacy: Yes, but see bluff
Disable device: Yes, but only if you miss by 4 or less and have reason to suspect you failed
Disguise: Yes, see bluff
Escape artist: Yes, if not activel opposed
Forgery: No, although you could try to hoodwink someone else with the same document
Gather Info: Yes
Handle Animal: Yes, except for rearing an animal (cannot turn back time)
Heal: Yes, but you need proof of failure
Hide: Does not specify, but if you fail you are spotted (don't forget circumstance bonuses)
Intimidate: Yes, see bluff
Jump: Does not specify, see balance
Knowledge: No
Listen: Yes
Move silently: Does not specify, see hide
Open lock: Does not specify, see escape artist
Perform: Yes, see concentration
Profession: Yes, see concentration
Ride: Does not specify, see balance
Search: Does not specify
Sense motive: No
Sleight of hand: Yes, see bluff
Spellcraft: Yes, see concentration
Spot: Yes
Survival: Yes, see concentration
Swim: Does not specify, see balance
Tumble: Usually no
Use magic device: Yes
Use rope: Does not specify, depends on what you are trying
The only contentious skill is Search which the book specifically says you can take 20, but it also has consequences for failure (traps).
IMHO it is a DM call on a case-by-case situtation. If the players have a 'hunch' that there is a trap (or whatever) and they are not stressed by monsters they should be allowed to take 20 - 2 mins per 5 foot cube. If stressed or just doing a once over they cannot be allowed to take 20.
Hope this long post helps people.
I'll just point out, as it seems to be getting some what confused in this thread, that searching and disabling traps are different skills. You can take 20 on searching for a trap (the same way as you can do so for searching a room for loot or a secret door). There is no immediate bad consiquence from searching for a trap under most circumstances.
That said its worth noting that players searching are assumed to be doing a through job with proding device and such. In fact they even have the option of taking a major (-10) penalty and just peering at things from afar. Thus when your players say they take 20 they are moving into the room and carefully proding the floor, walls etc. If your trap is such that even careful proding etc. would get them into trouble then they just met your criteria - if they did not want to cross the rooms threshould they should not have said "I take 20 and search this room".
That said I'd avoid the mechanic to often - traps that go off when searched for leave the players few real opportunities to avoid them. Furthermore you don't really want to set a precident where your players take 20 on a visual search before taking 20 on a non-visual search on every single room. If they should be looking at a room first very carefully there should be some kind of a clue or something to indicate that.
Actually, I was not aware that the take 20 rule was not just like rolling a natural 20 until I asked the question...
You're still not getting it. "Natural" 1's and 20's generate no special results on skill checks. If the DC is 30, and you roll a natural 1, but have a +29 modifier, you succeed on the skill check! If the DC is 10, and you roll a natural 20, but you have a -11 modifier, you fail on the skill check! Therefore, it doesn't matter whether taking 20 is "just like rolling a natural 20" or not.
In your game, you are free to change the rules, of course. But doing so will affect the way the mechanics work. (For example, you'll have to decide whether taking 20 is "just like" rolling a natural 20...because suddenly it will matter.) That is not the fault of the original rules.
Using that assumption it is easy to see that if a PC is tied up with rope he could take 20 to eventually free himself - having been tied up in the past I know that with much wiggling, straining, and/or twisting of joints you can eventually break free of almost any rope binding. However, what if one of those 'virtual' rolls was a 1? Does that mean that you just made it slightly more difficult to untie yourself? I would argue that it might.
Officially, it does not. You are free to rule differently in your own game, of course (see above).
Can you take 20 on Search? You can try, but, depending on the kind of trap, it could probably go off, if you make a mistake.
If the trap can be triggered by a failed Search check, you cannot Take 20. That's correct.
However, the vast majority of traps in D&D are not triggered by failed Search checks. Therefore, in the vast majority of cases, you can Take 20 when Searching for traps.
I love the "take 20", almost as much as I love the "take 10". I use "take 10" all the time in my campaigns as a DM to generate reactive dungeons. For example, everyone in the party has a "noise signature" and an "awareness", as does every dungeon denzian. A creature or character makes noise equal to its move silently, modified for speed (_-5 for 1/2 speed, -10 for full speed, -20 for running or charging) as though it were taking 10. A creature or character's awareness is its listen, possibly modified by distraction or other circumstance mods, also as though it were taking 10. Since listen is penalized by 1 for every 10', the amount a creature's awareness beats the loudest character's noise signature by multiplied by 10' tells you how far away the party will be when the creature becomes aware of them (remember, a closed door counts as 50'). Or, in the case of very stealthy parties, it works the other way around.
Likewise, any information that would be revealed to a character taking 10 on a spot check, I immediately provide, on a note to that player if confidentiality is important in the situation, said information with the opening description.
I don't see this as an impediment to role playing so much as a just reward for players who load up on skills so their characters can be really good at something. If I know the DC for a jump is low enough for the barbarian to take 10, I don't even ask for a roll, I just tell the player that her barbarian springs across with ease, and she feels good for maxing out her jump.
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If the trap can be triggered by a failed Search check, you cannot Take 20. That's correct.
However, the vast majority of traps in D&D are not triggered by failed Search checks. Therefore, in the vast majority of cases, you can Take 20 when Searching for traps.
That was exactly what I meant. I remember a lot of pit traps, pressure plate traps and things like that in my campaigns, and I assure you, that my players aren't to eager to take 20 on their Search rolls. Some clever hidden enemies work the same way.
So if you don't like this special rule, I find it relatively easy to make it rather impossible for the players to (mis-)use it WITHIN the rules framework.
There are times when this rule is especially helpful to get the game flowing. But if your players are too lazy and try to "misuse" this system, there are enough ways to stop this behaviour.
This said, if my players aren't interested in this part of the game, I tend to spare them the work by allowing them to take 20 most of the time. They will have much more fun to spend this time with things they like (be it combat, intrigues or whatsoever) and most of the time, their fun means my fun.