I've been perusing some recent threads and noticed various mentions of min/max-ing and spiked chains and such. I have a few thoughts of my own on the subject.
When the 3E rules came out, I was stoked, because they finally answered an issue that a few fellow gamers had bemoaned. In point, high level fighters had always been "boring" in comparison to high level spell casters, as far as range of choices in an encounter was concernerned. While the magic-user had books of spells to choose from, the fighter was stuck with nothing more than stronger version of the same option he had as a first level character.
Now, a high level fighter can choose from an array of weapons and tactics, each uniquely suited to certain tasks. You wouldn't expect a wizard to cast a fireball that doesn't include the most or toughest enemies within its area, so why discourage a warrior who wants to get the best effect out of her raison d'etre.
Of course, if a DM caters to his players wish lists (and in campaign worlds where magic is abundantly available, such as...the Forgotten Realms, the DMG can become like a Sears catalog) then game balance can get skewed, especially if only one player is taking advantage of the system, while his team mates wallow in mere above averageness. Nevertheless, if the availability of ability boosting items and specialty weapons is adjudicated evenly, a balance is quickly reached.
So pick up that spiked chain and take the Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip feats as soon as you can- then wade into a roomful of orcs and show that wizard he can just memorize water breathing in the place of that fireball next time.
Well said!
Yes!
Agreed....but fireballs are so useful at 300'.....they remind me of an M203 grenadelauncher....
Further more fighters barbarians rangers DO not let your party subject you to the same abuse as I have myslef experianced.
Who among us are sick and tired of being swallowed alive protecting some damn wizard from the same fate. WHY? because we have a better chance of survival? Protect yourself from the trecheries of spellcasters. Take the run feet or buy a fast horse and the next time he expects you to go toe to toe with a purple worm without any protection from his end turn your ass around and see how he likes swimming in stomach acids!
Really! a freedom of movement was all that it was going to take you blasted casters! (gnomes excluded)
Who among us are sick and tired of being swallowed alive protecting some damn wizard from the same fate. Protect yourself from the trecheries of spellcasters. Take the run feat or buy a fast horse and the next time he expects you to go toe to toe with a purple worm without any protection from his end turn your ass around and see how he likes swimming in stomach acids!
HUZZAH! I totally agree! Meat-shield is a job for henchmen, cohorts, and... certain bards. ;->
In defense of wizard players, play smart and you have no need to cower behind a meatshield like a little girly man! I don't need no stinking meatshield!
Besides, Min/maxing doesn't mean don't use tactics and options. That's called "strategery".
Ooops I guess I got a little off topic. (although in all my previous dealings with spellcasters I have yet to find one that wasn't shaking in their boots once the front line was gone *gnomes excluded*)
I would like to personally thank all of the powergamers out there for indroducing new and powerful concepts to the D&D table. All of the "completes" suppliment books are filled to the brim with powergamer style upgrades. However with the aid of these books and people who think like them my campaigns have seen an increasingly colorful array of melee, stealthy, holy, arcane (mostly gnomes) characters and NPC's that have made gaming more fun for all involved.
I am personally proud that whenever my PC's meet a new NPC it matters little what he/she/it acts like or looks like my characters have about as much chance to figure out what he/she is capable of as they do of guessing the next spell a 25th lvl mystic theurge is going to cast
P.S. Robert G it sounds to me like you would make an excellent gnome
Meatshield??? Hadn't heard that one before. My 3rd level cleric/1st level sorceror who's working on becoming a mystic theurge is going to remember that term. I'm sure the barbarians in our party will enjoy being called that.
Thank you everyone for the nice things you say about my post.
"Meat-shield" is nice, but in my groups we've always preferred "Damage-sponge".
DD
So pick up that spiked chain and take the Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip feats as soon as you can- then wade into a roomful of orcs and show that wizard he can just memorize water breathing in the place of that fireball next time.
I'll drink to that!
So what your basically saying is you want a Munchkin Union.
I'm not sure why power gaming is frowned upon, or any other play style for that matter.
If someone wants to get into the intricasies of mediocrity with flair, I let them play a character with low ability scores and do my best to make the challenges less than fatal, if not outright humorous.
If someone wants to slap Sauron silly with a Daffy Duck Pacifier, the dude abides.
Whatever's clever.
When I was ten I wanted power gaming. Level fiddy billion fighter with tamed Hastur for his steed? WHYNOT!
When I got older, I wanted to truly role play. I wanted to explore being near powerless most of the time but coming through it all anyway.
That said, when I get players who want to arm wrestle gods, I just up the challenge. I've never had a problem developing epic challenges. Whatever the customer wants, so long as I have them happily struggling to stay alive (within the game, not during the game), s'all good.
I admit to certain power gaming lure; however, I'm also interested in challenging myself. I find this difficult to explain. Take video games. For some stupid reason I always play my video games on the hardest setting right out of the box. If I can get good at the game at it's most challenging, well, !?! I don't know –that to me is fun. Going back to a lower challenge rating is interesting for a cake walk experience but ultimately boring. In the D&D setting I like to pick the characters that seem weak; the classes that others don't want to play. The story, plot, and role playing are going to take of themselves. That’s more of a player thing than a character thing. But to take a class or character that is perceived to be weak and make it strong, well, you have to be a power gamer. It’s not just your ability scores and magic items either. Anyone can be powerful with the right abilities and equipment. I'm talking about the weapon choices, the skills you build, the feats you take and the tactics you use. You have to know the rules (which the best of us can be challenged by) and you have to have a strategy. I think Danzig Darkheart has a point about high level fighters. As a DM I have wracked my brain on more than one occasion to think up a fighter NPC that could challenge the entire party. Give me a Wizard of the same level as the party and there’s no problem. Everybody pulls out the “munchkin” and “power-gamer” card like its some kind of disease whenever someone tries to improve their character’s combat performance. If it’s a hulking thug wielding a great sword with power attack and cleave go’in so he can be a Ronco Vegamatic – well, ya, there are negative connotations. From my perspective it’s mostly from the standpoint that it’s been done already and the player has about as much imagination as the PC he’s playing. But give me a creative idea and I’m all for the power gamer. Here’s to originality and hard work to make an effective character.
Cheers,
C.
I see no problem being a power gamer and a role-player at the same time....just park your halberd at the city watch office when they don't allow civilians to wield polearms in town and keep a shortsword handy....
Like someone mentioned in a different post about this same topic, why wouldn't you want the most effective weapon and best training if you really were an adventurer in a fantasy world? Doesn't mean you can't appreciate the rich fantasy world your DM is spinning for you.
I see no problem being a power gamer and a role-player at the same time....just park your halberd at the city watch office when they don't allow civilians to wield polearms in town and keep a shortsword handy....
Like someone mentioned in a different post about this same topic, why wouldn't you want the most effective weapon and best training if you really were an adventurer in a fantasy world? Doesn't mean you can't appreciate the rich fantasy world your DM is spinning for you.
Absolutely.
I think sometimes the difference is merely one of how problems are more likely to be solved. Sure, a high level character can opt to use his or her wits alone to get past a challenge but with an unsheathed +5 Frostbrand Castrator, why bother?
Now give me a 3rd level rogue facing down a path blocking toll troll with nothing but a -1 Corkscrew of Corkscrewing and I'll have no choice but to pop open a bottle of dwarven hard spirits and drive that big galoot one exit past Lampshadeville, then sneak past him gingerly while he's sleeping it off.
Who among us are sick and tired of being swallowed alive protecting some damn wizard from the same fate. Protect yourself from the trecheries of spellcasters. Take the run feat or buy a fast horse and the next time he expects you to go toe to toe with a purple worm without any protection from his end turn your ass around and see how he likes swimming in stomach acids!i concur let the wizard get swallowed ,see how he likes it.
i concur let the wizard get swallowed ,see how he likes it.
My wizard, Sucretsu Lozengius, suffered just such a fate.
My wizard, Sucretsu Lozengius, suffered just such a fate.
i concur let the wizard get swallowed ,see how he likes it.
Sucretsu Lozengius????? Was he menthol-flavored??
Sucretsu Lozengius????? Was he menthol-flavored??My wizard, Sucretsu Lozengius, suffered just such a fate.
i concur let the wizard get swallowed ,see how he likes it.
Thine insight! Thou art a seer!
Indeed, he was born in the frigid wastes of Upper Mentholia!
His only moment of greatness came when he single handedly bested a strep golem. Good times... good times...
Ahhhh!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yes! The dreaded strep golem --(throws d30 at the Jade and runs away screaming.....)
Lucky for magic-user types they're often the only member of the party with a decent light weapon-- "Hey Zanzifar, you want this +2 dagger? Cuz I got dibs on the Frostbrand."
My wizard, Sucretsu Lozengius, suffered just such a fate.
i concur let the wizard get swallowed ,see how he likes it.
Is Suctretsu related to Halls Mentalhypnos?
Ooops I guess I got a little off topic. (although in all my previous dealings with spellcasters I have yet to find one that wasn't shaking in their boots once the front line was gone *gnomes excluded*) ...In defense of wizard players, play smart and you have no need to cower behind a meatshield like a little girly man! I don't need no stinking meatshield!
Besides, Min/maxing doesn't mean don't use tactics and options. That's called "strategery".
In defense of the wizard's I've played in Sexi's campaigns, I have to say that I either A. stay the hell away from a fight (as a caster should) and don't need to shake, or B. we get ambushed and I'm gutted before any shaking can occur.
Is Suctretsu related to Halls Mentalhypnos?My wizard, Sucretsu Lozengius, suffered just such a fate.
i concur let the wizard get swallowed ,see how he likes it.
No, but interestingly, he always believed the Halls to be a place and not a person. So you can imagine that when he attempted to 'tour' Halls there was a great commotion and Sucretsu was heartily beaten about the face and neck with a Squeegee of Numbing.
It's hard to make much of Sucretsu's brief unheralded career considering he's now but an abandoned splooch of worm poop.
His last words: "I always knew it would end like this."
I ran a Traveler campaign once when one of the players was stuck for a name when rolling up his character. He looked at his watch, then at his beer and christened his character--
"Hamms Casio"
...which was actually a pretty cool SciFi name if we didn't know what he had named his character after. I have a feeling "The Jade" would have liked that campaign....
I ran a Traveler campaign once when one of the players was stuck for a name when rolling up his character. He looked at his watch, then at his beer and christened his character--
"Hamms Casio"
...which was actually a pretty cool SciFi name if we didn't know what he had named his character after. I have a feeling "The Jade" would have liked that campaign....
I have a feeling you're right.
That really is a great Sci-fi protag name.
Hamms Casio? I think he might be the p.w.t. cousin of a Lathandrain paladin I know named Royce Bently. A champion of virtue and two damn fine cars.