Has anyone revisited the Arcane Archer now that bow and arrow enchantments don't stack. It seem to me this really nerfs the class?
What arcane touch spells are more effectively delivered by arrow?
I like the idea of an Arcane Archer class - I just don't see how the class as written is equal to a multiclassed caster/fighter type.
Does anyone have an archer class they really like?
Archer from IH. Period.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Archer from IH. Period.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
What is IH?
Iron Heroes is an alternate 3.5 PH published by Monte Cook's Malhavoc Press. Here's an earlier thread about it:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dnd/general/archives/ironHeroesAnyoneG otIt#26265
My players weren't too thrilled about it, but I chalk it up to the fact that we just converted to 3.5 last year and they don't want to learn something new. The archer class from IH is very cool, as Flapjack mentioned.
Hmmmm....I'm unable to properly post links for some reason. Anyway, do a search for Iron Heroes and you'll find it mentioned enough on these boards that you may get a picture of what it is about.
?@?@I don't know about you guys, but I love the idea of being a Ranger/9, Wiz/1, ArcArch/1~10. Just the idea of a ranger's Arrow Storm (from Complete Adventurer) mixed with an Arcane Archer's arrows...o.O; drool.....sorry. ^.^
Has anyone revisited the Arcane Archer now that bow and arrow enchantments don't stack. It seem to me this really nerfs the class?
What arcane touch spells are more effectively delivered by arrow?
Er, bow and arrow enhancements have never stacked. They do, however, overlap. What's great about the arcane archer is that at 10th level, he can take, for example, a +1 evil outsider bane flaming burst holy shock seeking speed longbow (^_^) and fire +5 evil outsider bane flaming burst holy shock seeking arrows out of it.
Also, arcane archers don't get any ability to deliver touch spells with arrows. They do, however, get the ability to deliver area spells. Wherever the arrow hits is the center of the area. In that light, these are a few arcane choices:
(Assuming a Wizard 8/Fighter 2)
4th level
crushing despair, evard's black tentacles, fear, hallucinatory terrain, lesser globe of invulnerability (fire close to someone you are protecting), shout, solid fog
3rd level
dispel magic, fireball, invisibility sphere (fire close to someone you are protecting), lightning bolt, magic circle (see invisibility sphere), sleet storm, stinking cloud
2nd level
detect thoughts (great for spying), fog cloud, glitterdust, shatter, web
1st level
burning hands, color spray, grease, hypnotism, obscuring mist, sleep
0
detect magic, detect poison, prestidigitation
(Assuming a Bard 10)
4th level
hallucinatory terrain, repel vermin, shout
3rd level
crushing despair, fear
2nd level
calm emotions, glitterdust, silence, sound burst
1st level
grease, hypnotism, sleep
0
detect magic, lullaby, prestidigitation
There are a few other arcane area spells 4th level and lower, but they’re not really useful.
In 3.0 arrows and bows did stack - and why would you risk missing with your fireball - when the range of the spell (depending on the bow of course) is 5 range increments of your bow shot?
Seems to me that for any of the spells that are medium or long range (100 + 10 per level or 400 + 40 per level) you are better of just casting the spell. Further even for short range spells - 25 + 5 per level as an 8th level caster (the example used) you are already out to 65 - which is more than half of the range increment of even a longbow and well outside the effiective range of many of the bow feats.
Maybe some of the spells get a bit more distance.
Also there is an assumption in the suggested spell list that spells range goes back to the archer. I pretty big assumption.
So you fire a detect magic arrow - 3 range increments out - instead of just casting the spell - the arrow is detecting magic? How does that work? Do you house rule that the arrow communicates back to the archer - even though it is beyond the range of the spell? Same with detect poison, detect thoughts, etc.? Similar issues with prestidigitation or any other spell that requires the participation of the caster - the spell would be in effect - but outside the range of the casters influence. To change that seem a pretty liberal house rule.
How do you rule on basically cone shaped effects, say burning hands or lightning bolt in the example above - what target which direction does the flame spread? Or do people rule that the archer can choose the orientation of the spells discharge effectively allowing them to fire spells at range around corners? If so, thats a pretty powerful class attribute, one I hadn't thought of? Though it seems odd to me? But hey thats the reason for the post.
How do people rule on arrows charged with spells that miss their intended target?
Arkon,
Tend to agree with your interpretation. If I allowed a detection spell to work at all it would be along those lines - which is well below the normal effectiveness of the spell.
For cones and such I guess I might allow that - but aesthetically it just seems queer.
Which brings me back to my original point - is the Arcane Archer - especially in 3.5 a balanced PrC on par with others.
To me it seems the answer is no. But I conceed I may be missing something. Abilities like phase arrow, etc. that can only be used once per day - are difficult for me to assess the value of, and in general I steer away from classes that limited but was curious as to the interpretation of others.
Kyr, I agree with you. The Arcane Archer seems very limited and one-dimensional. It's a good way to give an elven mage some bite once he's out of spells, but that hardly makes him "master of the elven warband." Reading some of the Forgotten Realms fiction that features arcane- or spell-archers gave me an idea for a house rule to boost the classes' power though. Let the arcane archer's imbue arrow ability work as a free action, thus allowing multiple attacks/arrows every round with the full attack action. This seems a bit overpowered at first, but the arcane archer's spells will never be as powerful as a single classed mage, and the higher rate of fire makes up for the reduced spell range. It's a bit beardy, but this just might make the class more interesting/appealing. Comments?
In 3.0 arrows and bows did stack
Hm... I never noticed that before. My apologies.
...why would you risk missing with your fireball - when the range of the spell (depending on the bow of course) is 5 range increments of your bow shot?
Seems to me that for any of the spells that are medium or long range (100 + 10 per level or 400 + 40 per level) you are better of just casting the spell. Further even for short range spells - 25 + 5 per level as an 8th level caster (the example used) you are already out to 65 - which is more than half of the range increment of even a longbow and well outside the effiective range of many of the bow feats.
Maybe some of the spells get a bit more distance...
...How do people rule on arrows charged with spells that miss their intended target?
It's true, Arcane Archers have much less effectiveness when they're not able to take advantage of their range increments. But for, say, laying seige on a castle, espionage, or bodyguard work, they're great. The thing is, if the archer is using their imbue arrow ability, unless they're sure they're going to hit their target, the best place to aim is at the target's feet. A 5-foot square is AC 5, iirc, or not much more than that. If the target is standing next to a wall, even better.
If the archer arcs a shot over a wall (which admittedly, is not covered in the core rules), he can then get over the line of sight restriction most spells have. This is most useful for creating chaos in a hurry.
Also there is an assumption in the suggested spell list that spells range goes back to the archer. I pretty big assumption.
So you fire a detect magic arrow - 3 range increments out - instead of just casting the spell - the arrow is detecting magic? How does that work? Do you house rule that the arrow communicates back to the archer - even though it is beyond the range of the spell? Same with detect poison, detect thoughts, etc.? Similar issues with prestidigitation or any other spell that requires the participation of the caster - the spell would be in effect - but outside the range of the casters influence. To change that seem a pretty liberal house rule.
It's not really a house rule.
When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range.
So in effect, the bow's range becomes the spell's range. Also, unless you're also using rules for facing (such as from the Unearthed Arcana), it seems too restrictive to not allow the archer to choose the facing of her spell when it hits. This is magic after all... it doesn't work by the laws of physics. One thing to note, however, is that the spell's area is centered on where the arrow hits. This means, for example, that a lightning bolt would spread 60 ft. in either direction.
Again, none of this, other than arcing shots over walls, is house rules - just direct interpretation of the core raw.
Also - don't forget the divine builds - Arcane archers can imbue any kind of spell on their arrows, they only need access to 1st level arcane spells for entry to the class.
Oh, also: Due to psionics-magic transparency, you could have a psion 11/wizard 1/arcane archer who imbues arrows with area powers! A bit... odd... but definitely a quirky character concept!
Those are interesting interpretations - especially the 60' in either direction for a lightning bolt.
I've got to say though I wouldn't allow that a lighting bolt is a cone, and for something like detect magic where part of the point is to be able to shift the focus, I don't see how you stretch the range of the spell and center it on the arrow and then allow the caster to focus on various objects within range of the arrow. I don't see it, and I think ruling that way is a very liberal interpretation of the rules. I am not suggesting you or any other DM shouldn't rule that way - it just seems to be way outside the spirit of the way things work.
I definately wouldn't allow divine spells - fro one it seems implicit in the character that only arcane spells are affected it is an "Arcane" Archer after all.
I never really liked the Arcane Archer class to begin with because you're required to be an Elf or Half-Elf. Ugh, so tired of elves, haha.
I never really liked the Arcane Archer class to begin with because you're required to be an Elf or Half-Elf. Ugh, so tired of elves, haha.
I have to agree with you there. Racial prestige classes make as much sense to me as requiring levels in a specific class (Like, Fighter 4 or something); less even. Cultural PrCs I'm all for, but racial makes almost no sense.
...for something like detect magic where part of the point is to be able to shift the focus, I don't see how you stretch the range of the spell and center it on the arrow and then allow the caster to focus on various objects within range of the arrow.
Well, the third round at least of detect magic requires line of sight, which does impede an archer who's shot his arrow 300+ feet away. And the spell description reads that you gain information as long as you study a particular area or object, which implies that you have line of sight for the entire time. So depending on how far you shoot the arrow and how your DM interprets the implication, you may get less usage out of such spells.
I definately wouldn't allow divine spells - fro one it seems implicit in the character that only arcane spells are affected it is an "Arcane" Archer after all.
Taking the name of the class literally like that doesn't really work. If that was the case, Dwarven Defenders would always have to use the total defense or fighting defensively actions, the Horizon Walker could never ride a mount, and Blackguards would always have to wear black (and do guard duty...). Arcane knowledge is necessary to learn the skills of the class, which are to make all arrows the character uses magical, and to imbue arrows with different spells and magical effects, which is kind of like a fast item creation. But nothing in the description prohibits imbuing divine spells (or even psionic powers, if you use them) as long as the character has access to them. The only restriction is that it must be an area spell.
After all, rangers use divine magic, yet a few levels in ranger can help to make the perfect Arcane Archer. Doesn't it make sense that the character's abilities should work together? I probably wouldn't allow a psionic Arcane Archer combination to work without a really good reason, but can't your mind's eye just see an arrow imbued with spike growth in action?
Another thing to keep in mind is that, yeah, the Archer really can't improve much on a long range spell, but if he's confident in his aim, he's also hitting his target with a magical arrow. And since the character is built around using a bow, he's probably got some nifty enchantments tied to that bow. If he fires at closer range, he's got his feats and other class features (like sneak attack, skirmish, or favored enemy) to take advantage of. A fireball fired 30 feet away still leaves the Archer 10 feet out of the blast radius, but close enough to deal a lot of hurt with just the arrow.
Thats one of the great thngs about the game it has the flexibility to be what the players want it to be.
For myself I like racial PrCs - and within the general campaign area the cultures are divided along racial lines - which seems to me to be more like how cultures really work. The politically correct all races mingling and getting along doesn't reflect the larger reality I experience day to day, and I live in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. I interact daily with people from India, Pakistan, Saudi, Yemen, the Philippines - but we don't share a culture. We sare some common business goals, we try to be respectful of each other, but that doesn't mean I am ever going to really be able to be of this place and its culture - I will always be an outsider. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for me, just that I will be an outsider. That is sort of the "model" I say for racial PrCs - you can admire dwarves, emulate them, but you can (as a human) never really be one. This seperateness is magnified (for me anyway) buy the fact that "races" aren't just culture, religion, language, and (maybe) a slightly different skin color. There are really differences between the races, and the gods take active roles and grant abilites to their worshippers. To me this is a paradigm where racial PrCs make a lot of sense.
That said, I think there is also plenty of room for PrCs with regional explanations. Regions, will have different habitats cultures, languages, and threats to respond to. I don't think that race and region based cultures are mutually exclusive - the dwarves, humans, elves of europe, would each have a different but related cultures (trade, war, proximity would interrelate them) as would each of those races in india, arabia, etc.
I never really liked the Arcane Archer class to begin with because you're required to be an Elf or Half-Elf. Ugh, so tired of elves, haha.
You might really like Iron Heroes, then. A cool archer core class (as Waterdhavian Flapjack stated) and no elves....or dwarves....or magic items.