Hey all,
Not sure if anyone else's players have been this creative but in Three Faces of Evil my PC's were really stuck by the defense of the Skeletons in the Temple of Hexor. I described them then as wearing what appears to be rusted full plate and their eyes lit up.
They want to use the spell Make Whole to fix the rusted suits of armor and sell them off. That's eight suit of full plate at 600 gp a pop (selling price) or 4800 gp!!! At third level from a nonmagical item!!!
Anyways I know I have multiple ways around this.
#1 - I could say that many of the suits are too "warped" for Make Whole.
#2 - There isn't a great big market for Full Plate in Diamond Lake (thus forcing them to wait and sell in the Free City), etc.
#3 - Make them work for it... I mean that's a lot of weight to be dragging around and store.
None-the-less this struck me as one of those cool ideas (skeltons with old rusted armor) that didn't consider the ramifications of a minor often overlooked spell.
Anyone else have a similar experience?
Later
Wraith428
Creative Director
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This is one of those cases where one should err on the side of the spirit of the rules rather than the letter. The suits of armor worn by the skeletons are rusted; rust is the natural equivalent of grinding something to powder, so therefore I would say that make whole won't fix up these ruined suits of armor.
Of course, there's already a LOT of gold to be had in "Three Faces of Evil." And if the PCs DO insist on dragging all the armor up out of the mine, keep in mind that there's plenty of corrupt nobles and guards and sherrifs up topside ready to "collect their taxes"...
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Creative Director
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While we're talking gold, Jimbo, whats up with a 10,000 gp mirror in HoHR? Is the thing diamond-faced or something???
Jimbo, eh?
The mirror in question, I assume, is the one in area D18 worth that much because it's a magic item. If the mirror weren't magical, it'd probably be worth 100 gp or something like that. Maybe more since a small mirror is worth 10 gp.
They want to use the spell Make Whole to fix the rusted suits of armor and sell them off. That's eight suit of full plate at 600 gp a pop (selling price) or 4800 gp!!! At third level from a nonmagical item!!! ... Anyone else have a similar experience?
Your players are seizing the idea that just because the name of the spell is "Make Whole", that it will make any object whole, or as good as new. Sorry, t'ain't so. The spell description says that Make Whole functions just like the Mending cantrip, which is only good to repair breaks or tears in objects -- single breaks in metal objects, multiple breaks or tears in ceramics or softer materials. Make Whole simply allows you to completely repair all the breaks in an item regardless of the materials involved. This would, for example, allow you to fully repair a shattered window or mirror, or repair a rent or multiple tears in a suit of mail; both these are feats far beyond the capabilities of a simple Mending spell.
As you pointed out, the armor the skeletons wear is badly corroded; the passage in the magazine even says that the armor only grants +5 armor bonus instead of the normal +8, and is only worth 100 gp if resold. Since the armor is described as being "too corroded to be worth anything more than scrap metal" (Dungeon #125, pg. 24), it falls under the jurisdiction of the final sentence of the Make Whole spell in the PH, which says that it doesn't repair items that have been warped, burned, melted, etc. I would argue that corrosion and extreme rust would fall in amongst those other similar conditions. Ergo, the players can haul around 50 pounds of scrap metal for a measly 2 gold a pound! When you put it to them that way, it's hard to justify the hassle of carrying around that kind of weight.
Speaking Three Faces of Evil. How many cultists are in the Hextor temple area?
-Neomorte
Speaking Three Faces of Evil. How many cultists are in the Hextor temple area?
-Neomorte
How many cultists do you need to delay the characters and allow Theldrick to set up his defenses? That should be the number you use. :)
Of course, there's already a LOT of gold to be had in "Three Faces of Evil." And if the PCs DO insist on dragging all the armor up out of the mine, keep in mind that there's plenty of corrupt nobles and guards and sherrifs up topside ready to "collect their taxes"...
In my campaign the PCs didn't get a chance to drag up the armor. As soon as the Ebon Aspect fell the liquid in the dark pool began to rise and fill the Dark Cathedral. The PCs high tailed it out and helped evacuate the 40 miners.
The PCs then went the lawful route to arrest Dourstone. As a result, Neff seized them before they could hide their loot.
The cost in taxes? 10,000 gp.
This helped them get rid of their long list of trade goods. I created a few side adventures to stall the group before starting 126. In one of the adventures the party needed to stop a shipment to be used as a bribe from Smenk to Neff. The party decided to do this covertly by having one of the befriended miners hire a group of harlets from the Midnight Salute to slow down the caravan. It turns out the caravan was lead by a women riding the prize: a diamond-studded warforged warhorse worth 8,000 gp. We now have a very happy warforged paladin in our group.
My players used mending in the Whispering Cairn to fix the three broken statuettes -- restoring three 200 gp items to full value.
Pretty clever, I thought.
Jack
Wraith428,
I think your players were very clever and enterprising. I wouldn't want to punish them for their creativity, though I think your own suggestions #2 and #3 are reasonable and will probably go a long way to discouraging your PCs from making this kind of behavior a habit. The purchase limit of 800 gp for Diamond Lake should not be ignored or down-played. The greedy NPCs in town are also sure to notice the characters' sudden gold extravaganza and other threads have discussed the ramafications of that whole scenario as well.
With all due respect to James, I don't think some lame interpretation of a poorly written often-overlooked spell should serve as a reason to squash the PC's plans. I think it's good role-playing when players take a seemingly "weak" spell and make it useful and powerful through creativity.
Besides you can't use fortune and fame as even a subtle motivation for your characters, then punish them when they come up with a scheme to accomplish this goal.
Have the suits of plate become whole, just whole rust. Then have them fall apart while the shopowner is appraising them. Hilarity will ensue, and very little gold exchanging hands.
Here is something to consider, although it really isn't given much attention in D&D. Full plate armor should be custom fitted to the wearer. Armor that has to be refitted will sell for a good deal less than a fitted suit. I allow magical plate to bypass this, in that the armors in my games adjust to fit the wearer.
Wraith428,
I think your players were very clever and enterprising. I wouldn't want to punish them for their creativity, though I think your own suggestions #2 and #3 are reasonable and will probably go a long way to discouraging your PCs from making this kind of behavior a habit. The purchase limit of 800 gp for Diamond Lake should not be ignored or down-played. The greedy NPCs in town are also sure to notice the characters' sudden gold extravaganza and other threads have discussed the ramafications of that whole scenario as well.
With all due respect to James, I don't think some lame interpretation of a poorly written often-overlooked spell should serve as a reason to squash the PC's plans. I think it's good role-playing when players take a seemingly "weak" spell and make it useful and powerful through creativity.
Besides you can't use fortune and fame as even a subtle motivation for your characters, then punish them when they come up with a scheme to accomplish this goal.
I'm with SirMarcus on this one. I mean, if the things are still sturdy enough provide a +5 armor bonus (equivalent of chainmail or a breastplate), I can't see how they would've rusted so badly as to be ground to dust. Pitted and scarred, absolutely, but I'd let them be salvageable by characters who have access to the Make Whole spell and actually think of using it. Yes, it'll be hell to lug all of them out of the mines, even assuming time and circumstances ever permit it. Yes, selling all of it in DL may not be a good idea (or even possible). But I'm not going to just say "nope, you can't can't go getting all clever on me - you got all the money and treasure you were supposed to earn in this adventure, and you can't have anymore just because you thought up some little scheme." Time will tell whether they even think of this, but if it happens then I'll just suck it up, and they'll be a little richer for their efforts.
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Here's a suggestion. I usually say that most places will only give you half of the seeling price( 300gp for the 600gp armor) that cutts down on the money and the desire to carry it all. I don't think your players should be punished for creativity but this might be a realistic way to keep it in check.
Also, you can make them haggle too. good roleplaying = more reward.
If you do allow the spell to work, they would probably have trouble finding buyers for it at market value in DL, but they may be able to ingratiate themselves with the Temple of Heironeous with a charitable donation for the garrison. May be good for several healings or even a raise dead?
I love this idea. Very inventive, and a nice way to control what would be a somewhat unbalancing amount of potential treasure, without jipping the party out of benefitting from their creativity. Great suggestion!
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I have a hard time believing that such a low-level spell would replace the entire profession of blacksmithing, myself. The spell should not be allowed to restore the lost 3 points of AC bonus, as the metal to provide that bonus is physically gone from the armor. The spell *repairs* the items, it does not generate new tempered metal. With that loss, the value of the armor would drop, as well.
'Getting creative' is all fine, and I'm a loud voice for encouraging my players to use their heads (otherwise, why do we game?). However, there's a limit.
One of my players will likely think of this. He did something like this in my last campaign. I made him haul that stuff for nearly two game months before he could unload it, and he spent almost half the value on wagons and storage for it by the time he got to a decent-sized city, and two of the items were stolen by a pair of rogues he embarassed in a town on the way. The rust monster made him real nervous.
Thank you. I try to be from the 'Quid pro quo, Clarise' school of thought. :)
And now a "Silence of the Lambs" reference. You're officially going into my "cool" book, and I'm stealing your idea in case my party gets clever with the 3FoE rusty armor bit.
I was so overwhelmed with the prospect of allowing the players to sell off all the crap they find in the temples, that I kept them trapped down there until the last High Priest was killed. On his death, the temple basically destroyed itself and the Ebon Aspect arose and followed them up the elevator shaft. It was very Indiana-Jones-ish. Outside, Ragnolin had broken his enchantment and fetched the local authorities, who had to help the PC's beat the Ebon Aspect (they were beat down from being in the temples for several days of pure hack and slash.)
They still ended up carrying a lot of stuff, and should make a hefty profit, but at least they don't have 30 suits of armor, etc. to worry about selling. That would have been extremely cumbersome.