At last Tuesday's game one of my players cast Speak with Animals spell on a vulture he had manaegd to calm using his Druids empathy ability - this is in a converted to 3.5 version of Vulture Point so the player went on to question the Vulture about the Dungeon.
What followed was a really akward and very unconvincing attempt by me to answer the questions posed by the Druid regarding the dungeon. I essentially had to be beaten down by my players on teh point that animals - all animals can speak and essentially have a language.
Its not really clear what animals know or how eloquent they are. I'm starting to think in terms of Watership Down, or that seems to be where the rules are leading me.
But I'm really having a hard time with the concept that animals can speak much more intellegently then mono sylabic terms about concepts near and dear to their hearts when conversing with each other.
I'm curious what other DMs do in terms of animal language and PCs talking with animals? I figure I have to get to teh bottom of this idea in a hurry - the player I have will probably take speak with animals every day so I had best get used to it.
I play them as extremely unintelligent - because they are. I try to be a little vague, and describe things differently.
PC: So, little animal friend, who lives in this dungeon?
Animal: I dunno. Some guy. They leave good food behind, though. Yum - the other day, they left a whole bone I could chew on for a while. Yum!
What's really down there? An ogre or a troll or something to that effect.
Basically, I'll give the PC information because I don't think it's fair to always waste one of their resources such as a spell. But they need to work to figure out what things are from the animal's perspective.
You can also enforce the time limit (1 minute/level) in real time.
The point of view though is key. A vulture likely has no word for "door" and might call it "a cave that sometimes isn't there". Melee weapons might become "long fangs" and "wooden paws". Rooms become "dens", "nests", or "burrows", while fish might refer to currents as "pathways", and so on.
GGG
There was a Dungeon(r) adventure within the last couple of years that addressed this issue ... if the characters questioned the horses in the stable, there were sets of information that the horses could give, and what the limitations might be ... The horses aren't Narnia-esque animals that carry on intelligent conversation, and they aren't necessarily anthropomorphic -- they referred to their owners as "the two legged ones" and were able to answer questions about not being beaten, about being curried, brushed and combed, and having hay and oats. They weren't able to answer motivational questions, as they had no frame of reference. The were able to answer questions about noises they heard, but not about anything that would require an understanding of Common, or a word that they hadn't been "trained" with. they were able to answer questions about the layout of areas that they had access to, but not about the interior of any other buildings.
All in all, pretty limited, although still useful enough for background info.
There was a Dungeon(r) adventure within the last couple of years that addressed this issue...
Thats a good idea. Hmm...know that I think of it I think Christopher Perkins adressed what the horse knew in his adventure Tears for Twilight Hollow. I'll go check that out.
I agree with Great Green God (and the other posters). I find DMing Speak with Animals as kinda fun. You get to describe things STRICTLY from an animal's perspective. I agree that animals are largely unintelligent and certainly have no capacity to judge motivations or "feelings". IRL, people from a particular race generally perceive people of a different race as "all looking alike". Why should it be different for animals viewing a different species? All humanoids are going to be perceived as largely the same (you might mention a different smell or size, but otherwise - two legged ones pretty much sums it up). Birds are going to talk mostly about colors and "shiny things", and movement (things they generally pay attention too) while wolves will talk mostly about smell. Vultures are greedy scavengers so I'm betting the majority of a conversation with such a creature would center on how much carrion is available in said dungeon. Informing PCs that the local vulture has a steady diet of blood and guts (possibly with spicy variety included in the daily menu) isn't going to spell out what exactly lies ahead, but it'll cause PCs to tighten their grips on their weapons! I love it!
Well my plan to get insperation from Tears for Twilight Hollow is a bust - that damn horse has a 7 intelligence and a pretty decent vocabulary.
I think I'm getting some good ideas from other DMs on this thread. I think part of my problem was my players asked a lot of yes or no questions and I was so flustered I was not sqwauking enough. Both ruined the scene - in retrospect I should have broken the mold with the yes or know questions by answering them in sentences as answering anything in yes or no simply does not seem 'animal like'. One can't roleplay how dim the creature is with just yes or no.
Also the spell descriptions and Gnome special ability make little concession to the idea that animals are not that bright and are self-centred.
Here's something fun you can do, but only once or twice. Base your method of response on a "famous" animal of the sort. For example, talking to a donkey gets them a "doom and gloom" type of outlook, similar to Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.
Here's something fun you can do, but only once or twice. Base your method of response on a "famous" animal of the sort. For example, talking to a donkey gets them a "doom and gloom" type of outlook, similar to Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.
I'll save this for when I'm sick of the Druid and his stupid Speak with Animals Spell. It'll cheer me up.
The ranger in my party usually memorizes a "Speak with Animals," as does the Druid - the Druid does it to talk to summoned animals if he needs them to do something other than fight, but the ranger uses it for recon.
I have a blast with it, and so do the players.
What I suggest is: (a) come up with a few key pieces of information the players can learn from the animal; (b) reword the information to be animal friendly and from an animal's point of view, and (c) hold them to the time limit.
Animal friendly and animal point of view is the harder part, obviously, but I try to place everything from the points of view of: safety/survival, food, fear/threat, and size (from the relatively unhelpful point of view of 'bigger than me' or 'not so big'). If you've ever read Dragonlance, I find myself often sounding like a Gully Dwarf when I speak as an animal ("How many guards are there, little crow?" "More than two. Very big. Can I have your shiny? It's pretty.")
The ranger in my party usually memorizes a "Speak with Animals," as does the Druid - the Druid does it to talk to summoned animals if he needs them to do something other than fight, but the ranger uses it for recon.
I have a blast with it, and so do the players.
What I suggest is: (a) come up with a few key pieces of information the players can learn from the animal; (b) reword the information to be animal friendly and from an animal's point of view, and (c) hold them to the time limit.
Animal friendly and animal point of view is the harder part, obviously, but I try to place everything from the points of view of: safety/survival, food, fear/threat, and size (from the relatively unhelpful point of view of 'bigger than me' or 'not so big'). If you've ever read Dragonlance, I find myself often sounding like a Gully Dwarf when I speak as an animal ("How many guards are there, little crow?" "More than two. Very big. Can I have your shiny? It's pretty.")
I can do Gully Dwarf (they figure fairly prominently in my homebrew) but in some ways thats the problem. A Gully Dwarf is an intellectual giant compared to an animal. So I'm trying to DM something that is far dimmer then a Gully Dwarf...thats really kind of a challange. Basically I'm having difficulty locating levels of stupidity lower then Gully Dwarf.
I can do Gully Dwarf (they figure fairly prominently in my homebrew) but in some ways thats the problem. A Gully Dwarf is an intellectual giant compared to an animal. So I'm trying to DM something that is far dimmer then a Gully Dwarf...thats really kind of a challange. Basically I'm having difficulty locating levels of stupidity lower than Gully Dwarf.
Well, when it comes down to it, I figure if you're going to have a meaningful conversation via speak with animals you're going to have to at least give the animals enough functional linguistic capability to speak at all - so I just consider them dumb, but also uninformed and untaught. At some point, you end up admitting that "it's magic."
I agree that animals are largely unintelligent and certainly have no capacity to judge motivations or "feelings".
I like most of your ideas, but I'll have to take exception to this declaration. Most mammals are *exceedingly* good at judging motivations and feelings. It's going beyond emotional response of a stimulus into abstract thought that is impossible for them. So, for example, most animals could probably tell you if the two-leggers that went by a few minutes ago were up to no good. They couldn't tell you, however, what the bandits were talking about or why they are dragging the other two-legger into the cave.
I love how you approach it in game, though.
All humanoids are going to be perceived as largely the same (you might mention a different smell or size, but otherwise - two legged ones pretty much sums it up). Birds are going to talk mostly about colors and "shiny things", and movement (things they generally pay attention too) while wolves will talk mostly about smell. Vultures are greedy scavengers so I'm betting the majority of a conversation with such a creature would center on how much carrion is available in said dungeon. Informing PCs that the local vulture has a steady diet of blood and guts (possibly with spicy variety included in the daily menu) isn't going to spell out what exactly lies ahead, but it'll cause PCs to tighten their grips on their weapons!