I've been going through the hardcover with a fine toothcomb the past couple of days. Although I'm not completely through yet, there is a question that's been nawing at me for a couple of days. The cagewrights want to open a gate to Carcerri and enslave all humanity right? And Adimarchus wants to get out of his cage, wreak havoc on his enemies and get back to Occipitus. So where to these two connect? The introduction mentions one (tenuous) connection through Fetor Abradius, who was infected with the mad demon-lord's dreams. Fetor later joins the cagewrights. But how else are they linked? Does Dyr'ryd have any reason to help Adimarchus? What about the other cagewrights? Is there any reason why Adimarchus would want to help the cagewrights? He steers Fetor's research in the right direction, so he is (unwittingly?) aiding the cagewrights.
So, how did you guys handle this? Did it even come up?
I saw the same problem. The cagewrights want a portal to Carceri so they must be on friendly terms with Carceri. Adimarchus is imprisoned there so Adimarchus must be on unfriendly terms. It doesn't make any sense what they have to do with him.
I decided to have the three planes connected by the same planar junction. Description follows:
507 Year of Planar Junction
A ritual of Planar Junction opens gateways to Celestia, Oerth, and the 507th layer of the abyss, Occipitus.
Carcerian Demodands infiltrate Oerth and inseminate their cursed genes into civilization. Thus are spawned, the Shakleborn.
Demon Prince Adimarchus invades the Celestial Heavens. He is defeated and cast into the Abyss. Saureya, an angel, is cast into the Abyss with Adimarchus. Saureya and Adimarchus torment each other as best they can; Adimarchus abuses Saureya in the hope of converting him, Saureya fosters paranoia within Adimarchus to such an extent that Adimarchus creates the Test of the Smoking Eye.
Demon Nabthatoron leads an invasion of demons into West Grayhaunt. He is exiled to Oerth when his army is routed by Surabar Spellmason at Redgorge.
This way, the main elements/characters of AP are at least connected to each other by a doorway they all have shared. I have this planar junction happen every 507 years.
The Spiritual head of the Cagewrights (don't ask me his name at the moment) is a priest of Adimarchus so there is another connection. You are right though, there is no obvious connection, yet there seems to be many ties.
The Cagewrights goal is to open the gate to the material plane. Perhaps by opening the gate the Cagewrights unwittingly allow Adimarchus' followers to enter the plane and release him. I see the Cagewrights as being 'used' by Adimarchus and being inflitrated by his 'agents'. They have their own goals which Adimarchus is willing to support to secure his release.
Just an idea.
Delvesdeep
I read something last night from the SCHC indicating that the Cagewrights plan on opening the permanent gate to Cauldron from Skullrot.
Where exactly is the Asylum in relation to Skullrot?
Delvesdeep
I also found this to be a little paradoxical and confusing: that the cagewrights are helping the guards of the prison plane (the demodands) open a portal & some of them also want to free one of the prisoners (Adimarchus). I think as someone else pointed out above, isn't it the duty of the demodands not to let their prisoners out?
In my campaign, I decided that the ultimate stated goal of the cagewrights is releasing Adimarchus. However, they determined they could not do this without the consent of the demodands. So the demodands made a pact with the cagewrights- you open a portal to the prime material plane so we can harvest prisoners/slaves, and we will release one of our prisoners- Adimarchus.
Maybe this is stated somewhere, but I'm going to try to make it a little more clear, maybe even having one of the NPC villians reveal this in a gloating speech to the PCs.
I also found this to be a little paradoxical and confusing: that the cagewrights are helping the guards of the prison plane (the demodands) open a portal & some of them also want to free one of the prisoners (Adimarchus). I think as someone else pointed out above, isn't it the duty of the demodands not to let their prisoners out?
Who says the deomdandds are guards? They're not, and certainly not appointed by anyone else. They're prisoners themselves, even though they like to lord over the other prisoners!
Whoever imprisoned Adimarchus on Carceri, well, it wasn't the demodands. Nor is it they who decide if he stays or not. If they (or rather their "god" Apomp) think it will serve their cause to try to help Adimarchus out they will.
I always got the impression the Cagewrights were opening a portal to Carceri to free both Adimarchus and the demodands imprisoned there, acting under the direction of the insane Adimarchus. He wants to get out of prison so he gets his toadies to open the portal in order to come free him. Seemed simple to me.
Who says the deomdandds are guards? They're not, and certainly not appointed by anyone else. They're prisoners themselves, even though they like to lord over the other prisoners!
Whoever imprisoned Adimarchus on Carceri, well, it wasn't the demodands. Nor is it they who decide if he stays or not. If they (or rather their "god" Apomp) think it will serve their cause to try to help Adimarchus out they will.
Read the Fiend Folio: "The demodands are the self-appointed keepers of the Carcerian population. They are the jailers and the wardens, although they are mostly prisoners of the plane as surely as the petitioners they try to watch."
I just don't see a connection between the demodands and Adimarchus- I don't see any reference to Adimarchus being worshipped by the "toadies" as someone put. See Asylum- the PCs encounter demodands who are paying tribute to Adimarchu's warden, Dark Myrakul. They aren't going to try to help free Adimarchus- they're giving a sacrifice to his jailer - so they have real no connection to him or motivation to free him.
It seems the ultimate goal of the cagewrights is to free Adimarchus- see the Strike on Shatterhorn- Embril is still desperate to free Adimarchus, not to try to help the demodands create a portal. Asylum also says "Adimarchus is the true driving force behind the Cagewrights." (which sort of cuts against the long explnation in the Intro which makes it sounds like Fetor Abradius is the only cagewright dedicated to freeing Adimarchus and the rest are only trying to help the demodands create a portal).
So you have to admit it is a little twisted plot wise, and I just thought it would make more sense for the demodands to bargain the freedom of Adimarchus (even though they may be lying in a sense because Dark Myrakul is the real warden) to the Cagewrights, for the exchange of the Cagewrights in helping build the portal. At least it is one possible explanation for the connections between the demodands, Adimarchus, and the Cagewrights.
When I said toadies, I meant the Cagewrights.
The demodands may be the self-appointed wardens, but I always saw them as prisoners as well. Carceri is a prison plane, and I just kind of envisioned it as one of those deals where the demodands are stuck on Carceri so they appoint themselves wardens, yet would still jump at the chance to invade the Material plane.
How i understood it is that Graz't want to invade Celestia... If an army (the prisoners on carcer) could get to the material plane the could stride to celestia much easyer that from the prison plane... so with the gate there everything from Carceri would leave the cagewrites could go in a free andimachus because graz't would not care anymore... it could be a strech but it works for me
If us DMs, who've read all of the material, can't readily make sense out of it, it's not going to make any sense at all to the players.
Personally, I see the arc ending after Thirteen Cages. You battle the cagewrights, destroy their device, save the city. That's the end of the campaign arc. The rest is just tacked on bad guy fights that don't really add to the story.
In the last couple of chapters I noticed the cagewrights have more connections to Adimarchus. Almost all of the priests worship the demon prince. The exception of course is Embril, who worships Nerull. And pretty much all of them have been infected by the demon-prince’s mad dreams.
Ithought up the following link for my campaign:
When Fetor Abradius gained possession of his Statue of Adimarchus, he was also the first to be infected by Adimarchus’ dreams. He was driven to find a way to release Adimarchus from his cage. After much research, he deduced that he first needed to take the cage out of Carcerri and back to Ocipitus, where hopefully Adimarchus himself could sunder the cage. Adimarchus inspired and guided Fetor Abradius through his mad dreams. He pursued avenues of research no-one else had even though of, and gained insights no-one dreamed possible.
Although Fetor soon discovered many ways to reach and probably release Adimarchus, he lacked the resources to implement his plans. The answer to that problem came when the cagewrights asked him to join them. Of course, when the cagewrights came to cauldron and Fetor joined them, he brought his beloved statue with him. And from there, the statue slowly infected the other cagewrights. The cagewrights goal at first was to simply open a portal and release the Ghereleths from the prison plane, enslaving much of the material plane in the process. This goal subtly changes as the campaign progresses. For one thing, the location of the portal on the Carcerri side becomes Skullrot, the very place where Adimarchus is being kept. For another, the Cagewrights promised several powerfull Ghereleths choice slaves and domains in return for favours. One of these was aid in assaulting Skullrot. Finally, the cagewrights on the Carcerri side of the portal planned to use the confusion of the invasion to infiltrate Skullrot and take Adimarchus’ cage back to Cauldron. From there the cage could be transported back to Ocipitus.
Of course, by the end of the campaign, Adimarchus’ dreams become so strong that the statue is no longer needed as a focus for his dreams. They just lash out at random, clinging to whomever is powerfull and ambitious enough to be swayed.
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I am also having difficulties with Adimarchus' involvement in the end -- why do they have to release him and then kill him? Why, because he's making Vhalantru recycle - huh?
Now, the Cagewrights do succeed somewhat in weakening the fabric between Carceri and the Material Plane, even if the Tree has the Dispersion Collar placed on it. Perhaps this starts to weaken Adimarchus' bonds, or aspects of Carceri start manifesting on the Material Plane, until he is defeated -- I'm not sure on this one, but my PCs are on Zenith Trajectory so I have some time.
(IMC, I've replaced Adimarchus with Levistus, so instead of the Strike on Shatterhorn, I'm going to have the plane-shifting city of Icerazer show up off the coast of Taskaunt, which is my alternate Cauldron, and assault the City if it still stands -- but I will need to come up with an alternate endgame adventure).
Read the Fiend Folio: "The demodands are the self-appointed keepers of the Carcerian population. They are the jailers and the wardens, although they are mostly prisoners of the plane as surely as the petitioners they try to watch."
Yes, the key to this is the self-appointed bit. The demodands are, or at least were in Planescape, as much prisoners as everyone else on Carceri, even though they like to deceive the other prisoners that they are the wardens.
They are a tragic sort of fellas, fallen beyond redemption to almost lord over the plane they are imprisoned on.
OK, if the demondands are imprisoned, then it makes some sense why they might free Adimarchus. But the gate to Carceri has been defeated at this point. There's still no reason to go there and fight him.
Agreed, and they need a good reason to start pushing over Demon Princes, right?
The only tenuous link is the resurrected Vhalantru. Anyone got any better ideas?
Ditto. You hit the main problem on the head and summed up my biggest problem nicely. This thread is turning out to be constructive. Thanks to everyone who helped explain the demodands status as prisoners to me. I was on hiatus from gaming during the planescape days so they are new to me.
Anyway, I'm sure we can find some better ideas for the PC's motivation to go fight Adimarchus. I'll give it a try: Maybe the cagewrights were partially successful in creating the portal to the point where the nexus somehow weakened Adimarchus's prison- and if he escapes his insanity will inflict the entire prime material plane. Maybe play up more citizens of Cauldron going mad and the PCs determine that Adimarchus is ths source.
Agreed, and they need a good reason to start pushing over Demon Princes, right?
The only tenuous link is the resurrected Vhalantru. Anyone got any better ideas?
I have to admit that I am fairly confused about this thread, which is why I haven't posted on it until now. I ran Shackled City twice, and I thought that it was pretty obvious how everything worked together.
1. Adimarchus is a demon lord, lord of Occipitus.
2. Adimarchus is imprisoned in Carceri.
3. Adimarchus wants out of Carceri.
4. Adimarchus goes insane, and his insanity spills over into the material plane as well as Occipitus.
5. Adimarchus' insanity infects certain people, some of which (the Cagewrights) band together to free Adimarchus.
6. Freeing Adimarchus will undoubtedly free other denizens of Carceri, so the Cagewrights make deals "on the side," if you will, with the Demodands.
7. When the Cagewrights fail to open a portal, their back-up plan is to cut a deal, exchanging a powerful being on the side of good (one of the PCs) in return for Adimarchus' freedom.
8. When the PCs foil the plan, Adimarchus' power over Occipitus (although it's on a sub-conscious level... I don't think he's aware of what happens), his followers are ressurected on Occipitus, ready to seek revenge on the PCs and continue on their evil plot.
9. If the PCs don't free Adimarchus, kill Adimarchus, then seek him out on Occipitus and kill him again, then these high-level bad guys will continue to return from the dead to continue to exact revenge and free Adimarchus.
10. Certain other creatures, such as Vhalantru, seek nothing more than power and align themselves with the Cagewrights and the Demondands, but unwittingly become entangled in Adimarchus' insanity. Vhalantru's return (with a smoking eye template, no less) is the clue to the PCs that something is left undone, and their investigation should turn them to going to Carceri themselves to deal with Adimarchus once and for all.
This is how I understood the SCAP. Granted, every DM is going to run the adventure path in a way that is pleasing to their own style, so deviations will occur. But I believe, that is the "Top 10" of the plot of the Shackled City Adventure Path.
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The main problem I (and it seems others) encountered was that the constantly ressurecting Cagewrights were not a huge reason for the PCs to go free Adimarchus. In my version the "Smoking Shadows" as I came to call them did not come back with their items. This was for good reason...the biggest being that PCs would happily get rich off all their items being looted over and over. After the short period it took them to figure out that the copies were from Occipitus the PC with the Smoking Eye template relocated there (he had planned on taking a more active role in the layer's future after finishing the Cagewrights)and kept watch for the "Smoking Shadows". Whenever he saw one that was too tough for him to take out (like Hookface) he just sent a sending to the others and they used an amulet to planeshift in and take it out. It was actually quite ridiculous because by level 20 the Cagewrights were no match for the PCs and Hookface was becoming pretty easy to take out after the 6th fight with him/her(whatever). This is how I solved the problem...
Instead of making Athux being the son of Adimarchus's rival I made HER (first change) truly be an Aasimar paladin. When Adimarchus traded himself with her in Skullrot, Grazzt simply killed her in front of Adimarchus. Over the course of several thousand years her spirit moved through the stages of the celestial planes while Adimarchus rotted deep in Carceri. Eventually Athux emerged back on the material plane, however, her time in the upper planes had changed her greatly and now she was known as...Nidrama. Its her love for Adimarchus that leads her into tricking the PCs into Skullrot, and her love which blindly makes her think that the creature there now is the same one that loved her long ago. Its her story which convinces the PCs that they are saving a trapped Celestial who wants redemtion rather than a mad demon prince.
The main problem I (and it seems others) encountered was that the constantly ressurecting Cagewrights were not a huge reason for the PCs to go free Adimarchus.
Ah... now I understand the thread better. There are times that a different approach is needed to better suit the motivations of the players, especially when the players are content *not* to look further into something.
And as I was watching my daughter's soccer practice, I was thinking that the SCAP plot does have some more complex issues than my Top 10 would have you think. I didn't intend to say that there aren't any other motivations or complex situations involving the Cagewrights (especially Dyr'ryd), so I hope I didn't offend anyone looking for deeper meaning, or a more meaningful relationship between all of the different groups.
Its her love for Adimarchus that leads her into tricking the PCs into Skullrot, and her love which blindly makes her think that the creature there now is the same one that loved her long ago.
That is an inspired idea. It would have worked great with my second group... and it would have been even more tragic when Adimarchus killed Nidrama. Yes... sadly she did die in that epic final battle. Along with the party wizard. And the Fighter/Ranger lost a couple of levels. And the Warmage was dropped to -5. And the Paladin was lost in the maze. Ah... good times.
That was in December '04, and I still haven't cleaned off the final battle area off of my battle map. I now use a different one for my AoW campaign.
I can see how the characters could possibly be brought to the later adventures in the campaign but i think that it is pretty cheesey that the story line railroads them into freeing the demon prince for no good reason.
The bad guys want to free him so i guess we will just have to storm that alternate dimension to bust him out and kill him. Oh and happy surprise by killing him he is popped back to his domain.
At this level the pc's should be able to see some of the consequences of there actions. Through spell or knowledge roles if they have knowledge planes or religion. Giving them at least some chance to remember info about the demon prince DC 30 maybe. It's not like he is just another dretch or imp. He is the ruler of another plane.
I don't mean to rant i like the campaign as a whole its just the final adventure seems unneccesary especially since you can learn all this neat stuff about adimarchus except the fact you need to kill him on his plane to destroy him. if they don't defeat him he will escape because of the insanity leaks and if they do defeat him he reforms in his plane seems like a catch 22.
Also the final fight with this guy looks like it is going to play out like a final fantasy boss fight. Pheonix down anyone. OH MY GOD THEY KILLED KENNY (again). YOU &@$#@%*$.
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Well, another possibility is that while the Cagewrights are not directly trying to help Adimarchus (although a few of the Thirteen might be), the Cagewrights exist because of Adimarchus.
There could be hints or foreshadowing that Adimarchus has other cults dedicated to opening the Carceri gate, and unless Adimarchus is dealt with, they will eventually succeed. Maybe there are other Carceri gates across the world, in distant and hidden places. Only dealing with the source will solve the problem?
Or, alternatively, the Tree of Shackled Souls is collared, but slowly leaking Carcerian energy into the world. The only way to destroy this artifact is to slay Adimarchus.
Or lastly, anyone who touches the Tree is infected with Adimarchus' madness -- one or more of the players will start sliding into madness, slowly losing their Wisdom score, unless Adimarchus is slain ...
There's a few ideas...
Just a quick question (hopefully) and I am not even sure if this is the correct thread to post this but...
What is the name of the battle field in the Test of the Smoking Eye where the bodies of the fallen angels now lie surrounded in cocoons of red?
Delvesdeep
Just a quick question (hopefully) and I am not even sure if this is the correct thread to post this but...
What is the name of the battle field in the Test of the Smoking Eye where the bodies of the fallen angels now lie surrounded in cocoons of red?
Delvesdeep
Plain of Cysts - is this for another of Skie's goodies?
Plain of Cysts - is this for another of Skie's goodies?Just a quick question (hopefully) and I am not even sure if this is the correct thread to post this but...
What is the name of the battle field in the Test of the Smoking Eye where the bodies of the fallen angels now lie surrounded in cocoons of red?
Delvesdeep
Yes actually. :) I'm at work so I haven't got access to my Hard Cover so your answer is much appreciated. Thanks for your help.
Delvesdeep
a small note, though. The plane of Cysts is on Ocipitus, in the Abyss. Skullrot is on Orthrys, in Carcerri. I see you mixed the two up in your description
a small note, though. The plane of Cysts is on Ocipitus, in the Abyss. Skullrot is on Orthrys, in Carcerri. I see you mixed the two up in your description
Thanks Chef. I'll change that in the original for when I transfere the document over to the SCAPResource site.
I have another question. Rereading the note left by Ike I mentioned the Jesters. This may be too much of a give away to the connection between the church and Last Laugh. Instead I think I will change this to one of the Jesters names.
Can anyone remember the name of the Jester the party face off against during the meeting in the adventure Lords of Oblivion?
Delvesdeep
[b]
a small note, though. The plane of Cysts is on Ocipitus, in the Abyss. Skullrot is on Orthrys, in Carcerri. I see you mixed the two up in your descriptionThanks Chef. I'll change that in the original for when I transfere the document over to the SCAPResource site.
I have another question. Rereading the note left by Ike I mentioned the Jesters. This may be too much of a give away to the connection between the church and Last Laugh. Instead I think I will change this to one of the Jesters names.
Can anyone remember the name of the Jester the party face off against during the meeting in the adventure Lords of Oblivion?
Delvesdeep
[b]
Velior Thazo
Okay... I was wrong on a few of my top 10, and after an e-mail with James Jacobs I can try to redeem myself. (In my defense, I hadn't read much in the hardcover, which did add to the plot lines of Adimarchus, the Cagewrights, and Fetor.) Here's my revised Top 10:
1. Adimarchus is a demon lord.
2. Adimarchus had been inprisoned on Carceri for about 50 years.
3. Adimarchus went insanse, and his insanity has crossed over to other planes, including the material plane and Occipitus.
4. Adimarchus' insanity started to affect people on other planes... mostly as bad dreams here and there, but more pronounced in others.
5. In an extreme case, Fetor Abradious was affected to the point that he began research to release Adimarchus from Carceri.
6. Fetor joined a group called the Cagewrights.
7. The Cagewrights, as an orgainization, have been working for hundreds of years to open a portal to Carceri, with plans to ally themselves with the Demodands.
8. Eventually, Fetor's "infection" spread to other Cagewrights. Over time, the Cagewrights lost their focus on allying themselves with the Demodands, and became single-minded on releasing Adimarchus.
9. When the PCs thwart the Cagewrights' plan, the Cagewrights attempt to bargain for the release of Adimarchus, using a powerful being on the side of Good. By this time, they've given up opening a portal, having lost that drive altogether due to Adimarchus' permeating insanity.
10. After the fall of the Cagewrights, Adimarchus' insanity continues to spill into the other planes causing things to happen, like ressurecting fallen Bad Guys on Occipitus.
In the end, the main plot of the SCAP is to defeat Adimarchus so that his insanity will stop spreading over the various planes. Everything else (opening a portal to Carceri, finding the shackle-born, etc.) was meant to be "side quests" to finally lead the PCs to the ultimate goal of defeating Adimarchus.
Now that I understand it better, I think that most of the problems noted on this thread could be answered:
If the ressurected bad guys aren't enough to convince the PCs that soemthing needs to be done with Adimarchus, include some epic-level bad guys that goes to Occipitus to get the Smoking Eye to free Adimarchus themselves.
Or... have Adimarchus' insanity rise to the point that he starts to take over hundreds and thousands of denizens of the material plane (which is likely to happen over time).
Again... sorry that I didn't do my research before I joined this thread.
Again... sorry that I didn't do my research before I joined this thread.
eh, we can find it in our hearts to forgive you. great outline b.t.w.