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Before my question I just have to say the AoW Adventure Path rocks.
I have two questions for other Game Masters:
1. In the Whispering Cairn, how did your players approach the encounter with Balabar’s gang (Kullen & the boys)?
I ask this because my PC’s are acting like they’ve never played D&D before. They found Kullen (hulking albino half-orc with a forehead tattoo – not too hard to miss) and made out his buddies by watching them for a couple of hours. They tried eaves dropping (I gave them a 1 in 6 chance of overhearing something useful but they didn’t succeed) and they tried waiting for the gang outside the bar which also failed them – though, this later may have been my fault for two reasons: A) I gave the gang a chance to notice the PC’s “watching” them in the bar and they succeeded; B) medieval towns (at least the poor one’s) don’t have street lights so night time in the city can be a tricky business – the gang snuck out without the PC’s noticing and (thanks to Kullen’s Darkvision) trailed them back to the Able Carter Coach House. I’m worried the PC’s are going to end up being assassinated before they even have a chance to talk with the gang. I’m interested to hear the experiences of others.
2. In the Three Faces of Evil: how are you planning to run the labyrinth encounter with the Kenku in the Temple of Vecna?
I thought about this one (the Kenku tactics and the game rules associated them) and admit to be a little worried for a 3rd level party (or maybe just my party). My plan is to have the Kenku manoeuvre in advance of the party with one to use mimicry as a lure. They all prepare a readied action to fire their crossbows when the PC’s come to within 30feet so they can get their sneak attack damage on the flatfooted PC’s then to take a move action to disappear through a secret door (opening the door is a free action for the Kenku). None of the PC’s has Darkvision so the Kenku will likely get their attacks off without ever being seen as torch light only illuminates a 20’ radius. Since the Kenku have prepared readied actions they will always get an attack against the PC’s before the PC’s can react; unless the PC’s can turn the tables and surprise the Kenku. In an unfamiliar darkened labyrinth full of secret doors they are at a serious disadvantage. I smell a TPK coming with this one. I’m trying to think of ways to improve the PC’s chances without playing the Kenku’s as chumps – they should be threatening but maybe not invincible. Thoughts?
Cernunos
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I also have a party with no darkvision. Three faces has TPK written all over it. I'm going to have to make some pretty heavy mods to make that dungeon survivable. I was considering having Allustan sell the party a couple of Darkvision scrolls. My party also has no wizard, so their use will be constrained to the rogue's ability to use the scolls. I figure this will at least give the party a fighting chance, as well as highlight to them the critical need for the rogue to stay on top of her Use Magic Device skill.
1. In the Whispering Cairn, how did your players approach the encounter with Balabar’s gang (Kullen & the boys)? (...) I’m worried the PC’s are going to end up being assassinated before they even have a chance to talk with the gang. I’m interested to hear the experiences of others.
Fudge.
You don't need to play the thugs be evil and single-minded all the way. They might have noticed that your players are nosy and asking questions, but that does not mean that they should try to kill them right away. Maybe a beating would be a good first step (i.e. non-lethal damages).
If your PCs are from Diamond Lake, maybe one of them has a personnal connection to one of the gang members? He could us this as a "door opener" and try to befriend them. They are ugly and dirty, but it does not mean that they can't be useful or turned by some coins or promises. :-)
I think that Episode 4 (?) is much more interesting if you have the players negotiate with Kullen's gang and make a deal with them.
Bocklin
PS: Btw. why didn't you use Listen checks when they were eavesdropping?
2. In the Three Faces of Evil: how are you planning to run the labyrinth encounter with the Kenku in the Temple of Vecna?
I thought about this one (the Kenku tactics and the game rules associated them) and admit to be a little worried for a 3rd level party (or maybe just my party). My plan is to have the Kenku manoeuvre in advance of the party with one to use mimicry as a lure. They all prepare a readied action to fire their crossbows when the PC’s come to within 30feet so they can get their sneak attack damage on the flatfooted PC’s then to take a move action to disappear through a secret door (opening the door is a free action for the Kenku). None of the PC’s has Darkvision so the Kenku will likely get their attacks off without ever being seen as torch light only...
I've often found that the manner in which some species should attack problems is very different from the way they actually go about doing so. For instance, the Kenku are in three groups, one of which will track your party as soon as it enters the labrynth, and at least one other group will be tracking them soon after they round the first corner. If these were PC's gaurding their lair filled with secret passages for flanking, I would say that they would all converge on the invaders and wipe them out from all sides. Rather easily at that.
However, the Kenku entry says that they prefer to attack using concealment and subterfuge. With this in mind, coupled with the fact that it's dark, sound carries in hallways, and they are almost all sporting levels in rogue, it is even more difficult to assume the party's survival. I am thinking that it might be helpful to have a bard or wizard character make a roll to figure out that Kenku are very rogue-like and that invading a maze full of them would be like invading a den of thieves. But they won't have this knowledge in the beginning of the maze until after they meet the first group of Kenku (who will use the volley fire in sneak attack range and then close to get slaughtered tactic). I figure that even if the PC's don't make the check for kenku knowledge, they will still be able to figure out that they have sneak attack ability, which *should* alert them to future sniper methods. I'm even thinkings that one of them might die mimicking something one of the PC's said during the battle - kind of like the first Predator movie.
I also have a party with no darkvision. Three faces has TPK written all over it. I'm going to have to make some pretty heavy mods to make that dungeon survivable. I was considering having Allustan sell the party a couple of Darkvision scrolls. My party also has no wizard, so their use will be constrained to the rogue's ability to use the scolls. I figure this will at least give the party a fighting chance, as well as highlight to them the critical need for the rogue to stay on top of her Use Magic Device skill.
Wow, I thought my party had it bad – at least they’ve got a Wizard. I usually play a Wizard myself when not DMing and I couldn’t help thinking that this labyrinth is a great opportunity for a Wizard to wreak havoc on an enemy with Silent Image spells and the like. I wonder if the PC’s will think of this?
Fudge.You don't need to play the thugs be evil and single-minded all the way. They might have noticed that your players are nosy and asking questions, but that does not mean that they should try to kill them right away. Maybe a beating would be a good first step (i.e. non-lethal damages).
In spite of my "assassination" comment I'm really not trying to play Balabar's Gang as complete and ruthless killers. I think a beating might be in order but the PC's are currently so cautious that an action like that might scare them into a state of hopelessness or worse - put them into vengence mode.
If your PCs are from Diamond Lake, maybe one of them has a personnal connection to one of the gang members? He could us this as a "door opener" and try to befriend them. They are ugly and dirty, but it does not mean that they can't be useful or turned by some coins or promises. :-)I think that Episode 4 (?) is much more interesting if you have the players negotiate with Kullen's gang and make a deal with them.
Bocklin
This is the kind of the thing I was hoping they'd come up with. None of them are actually from Diamond Lake but they have been making contacts around town which makes the strategy sound. I think they're having trouble with the whole concept behind thier current situation; i.e. walking up to a complete stranger and inquiring whether or not they had anything to do with a recent grave robbing - I admit, that's a socially akward thing to do. I can see them itching to pull a "Batman" on one of them (Big Intimidation check on a lone member in a dark alley) but they haven't been able to engineer a situation that would make that tactic possible as yet.
PS: Btw. why didn't you use Listen checks when they were eavesdropping?
I did actually. They were successful at the listen check (the Party's Monk is quite good at this skill) but as I said earlier I made a random dice role to determine whether or not they heard anything useful. They didn't.
Now, I can hear someone saying I had opportunity to provide the PC's with a clue at this point. Maybe I'm just a stingy DM but I just feel the PC’s need to work a little harder for the link to Filge.
Cernunos
Now, I can hear someone saying I had opportunity to provide the PC's with a clue at this point. Maybe I'm just a stingy DM but I just feel the PC’s need to work a little harder for the link to Filge.
Well, I know what your saying: I tend to be the same with my players.
At the beginning I was too nice, leaving all kind of obvious clues all over the place. Then they started getting used to it and did not really try anymore to get the info by themselves. I had the feeling they were just there waiting for me to tell them what to do.
I then tried to repair my earlier mistake by being very mean with them and not giving out any info if it was not hardly won, but they were so lame that the game slowed down to a snail's pace and I got horribly bored... I then started again to give out tips and clues, but more scarcely.
I am not sure if I found the right balance, but I really wish that my players would show more initiative...
Bocklin
I am not sure if I found the right balance, but I really wish that my players would show more initiative...Bocklin
Sounds familiar, Monte Cook did an article about the flow of information in #124 but finding the balance is essential.
The problem is that the DM always knows everything and the players .... well the players don't seem to remember everything.
To solve this I usually start the session by letting them tell me what has happened in the previous session and why and I correct them when needed. This doesn't take a whole lot of time and it gets everyone on the same page.
I also maintain the campaign logbook online so I can deeplink to previous events which led to the current events. My hope is that they'll notice that everything is connected, actions have consequences but to date they have failed to connect the vampire spawn to the vampire ;> (I feel a TPK coming up next session)
But there is nothing wrong with making them work for it....it is ultimately more satisfying for you and for them.
To solve this I usually start the session by letting them tell me what has happened in the previous session and why and I correct them when needed. This doesn't take a whole lot of time and it gets everyone on the same page.
I do this too and I have to say I always get a chuckle. You can tell whos been paying attention and who hasn't. The chuckles come from those who haven't been paying attention and report wildly divergent interpretations of the events. For some reason its usually the Fighters ("let me know when you want me to kill something"). Its usually the Party's Thieves and Wizards who move the story along. I take some relief that it's not my DMing causing the problem when those same Thieves and Wizards can recount the events acurately.
I am not sure if I found the right balance, but I really wish that my players would show more initiative...Bocklin
Exactly! It amazes me that I can sit through an episode of CSI with the same people (my Players) and they come up with all kinds of guesses as to "who done it" based on the evidence the story is presenting. Then, you try to run a game that requires a bit of sleuthing and it's like zombies sucked the brains out of the entire party. What are ya gonna do?
Cernunos
To solve this I usually start the session by letting them tell me what has happened in the previous session and why and I correct them when needed. This doesn't take a whole lot of time and it gets everyone on the same page.
Yep. I do the same thing and my players usually tend to do a proper summary (edit: one, always the same, does the summary and the others nodd along with faces that try to show that they remember something).
But then, once the game start, they're waiting for me to deliver them the next cargo of info, without really trying to take initiative...
My fear is when the clever players choose to play a barbarian with low Int (I know that he is going to RP it well). In the end it means that the only player with the brain to make the plot go gurther is going to switch it off in order to RP his barbarian... The other (lazy/distracted) players, playing the "intelligent" characters, are then left to themselves, not knowing what to do.
It happened to me a couple of years back and I hope that I will never have to live through this again! ;-)
Bocklin
Yep. I do the same thing and my players usually tend to do a proper summary (edit: one, always the same, does the summary and the others nodd along with faces that try to show that they remember something).
But then, once the game start, they're waiting for me to deliver them the next cargo of info, without really trying to take initiative...
My fear is when the clever players choose to play a barbarian with low Int (I know that he is going to RP it well). In the end it means that the only player with the brain to make the plot go gurther is going to switch it off in order to RP his barbarian... The other (lazy/distracted) players, playing the "intelligent" characters, are then left to themselves, not knowing what to do.
It happened to me a couple of years back and I hope that I will never have to live through this again! ;-)
Bocklin
So true, I recognize your predicament ;>
It is usually only one player, but I also point out particular actions made by players to get them into the narrative. Be like Colombo, ask questions.All the barbarians I've played had at least INT 12 ;>
I cannot / will not play stupid characters
I have a question concerning miniatures. I was scrolling through the Paizo store to see if anything has been set up so that we could buy an Age of Worms miniatures set? Has that been created by the Paizo staff yet? It would be a great seller and I'd be a buyer.
If that is not the case...has anyone created a listing of the miniatures that would be BEST to be used with the AOW Whispering Cairn installment?
I have started a play by post campaign that also meets online in a chat room once a week......my player characters are just outside the entrance now.
Thanks in advance!
I have a question concerning miniatures. I was scrolling through the Paizo store to see if anything has been set up so that we could buy an Age of Worms miniatures set? Has that been created by the Paizo staff yet? It would be a great seller and I'd be a buyer.
If that is not the case...has anyone created a listing of the miniatures that would be BEST to be used with the AOW Whispering Cairn installment?
I have started a play by post campaign that also meets online in a chat room once a week......my player characters are just outside the entrance now.
Thanks in advance!
http://paizo.com/dungeon/products/adventurePathMinis
Happy gaming!
My group approached Kullen and company in the bar, and confronted them directly about their involvement in the grave robbing. The party threatened to report them to the Cult of the Green Lady (Kelemvorites in my FR game). A successful intimidate check was made, and Kullen and his boys spilled their guts. Not a single punch was thrown.
Remember in the labyrinth, that even though torches only shed 20' of light, there is shadowy illumination out to 40 feet.
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SBefore my question I just have to say the AoW Adventure Path rocks.
I have two questions for other Game Masters:
1. In the Whispering Cairn, how did your players approach the encounter with Balabar’s gang (Kullen & the boys)?
I ask this because my PC’s are acting like they’ve never played D&D before. They found Kullen (hulking albino half-orc with a forehead tattoo – not too hard to miss) and made out his buddies by watching them for a couple of hours. They tried eaves dropping (I gave them a 1 in 6 chance of overhearing something useful but they didn’t succeed) and they tried waiting for the gang outside the bar which also failed them – though, this later may have been my fault for two reasons: A) I gave the gang a chance to notice the PC’s “watching” them in the bar and they succeeded; B) medieval towns (at least the poor one’s) don’t have street lights so night time in the city can be a tricky business – the gang snuck out without the PC’s noticing and (thanks to Kullen’s Darkvision) trailed them back to the Able Carter Coach House. I’m worried the PC’s are going to end up being assassinated before they even have a chance to talk with the gang. I’m interested to hear the experiences of others.
For this encounter all my guys needed was a illuisonist and some lucky rolls. The wizard, Sereph, made himself look like Smenk. He hand sighnald out of the window when they were roaring drunk to come outside, and he led them to an ambush. He cast color sparay everyone but Kullen was knocked out, then the druid did entangle and it was over. they asked Kullen about the stuff, killed him and left the others tied up and naked.
My plan is to have the Kenku manoeuvre in advance of the party with one to use mimicry as a lure. They all prepare a readied action to fire their crossbows when the PC’s come to within 30feet so they can get their sneak attack damage on the flatfooted PC’s then to take a move action to disappear through a secret door (opening the door is a free action for the Kenku).
Just to help your players a little, you can't ready actions outside of combat. Surprise round should be easy enough for the Kenku to get, but allow your party a listen check vs their move silently to avoid a surprise round. Also, on the surprise round, the Kenuku can either fire or move through the door, they can't do both. In this case as long as someone in the party beat them on initiative, they can get up, attack, and possibly interpose themselves between the Kenku and the doorway.
For this encounter all my guys needed was a illuisonist and some lucky rolls. The wizard, Sereph, made himself look like Smenk. He hand sighnald out of the window when they were roaring drunk to come outside, and he led them to an ambush. He cast color sparay everyone but Kullen was knocked out, then the druid did entangle and it was over. they asked Kullen about the stuff, killed him and left the others tied up and naked.
That's interesting. My PC's aren't from Diamond Lake and don't know what Balabar looks like. I'm wondering if things are more dificult for them because I'm not offering information that would normally be available to residents. Their biggest info source so far has been Tidwoad (they went there to pawn off some stuff). Thanks for the insight!
Just to help your players a little, you can't ready actions outside of combat. Surprise round should be easy enough for the Kenku to get, but allow your party a listen check vs their move silently to avoid a surprise round. Also, on the surprise round, the Kenuku can either fire or move through the door, they can't do both. In this case as long as someone in the party beat them on initiative, they can get up, attack, and possibly interpose themselves between the Kenku and the doorway.
Hmm. I stand to be corrected on this but I'm pretty sure you can prepare a readied action outside of combat. For example, you could sit in your Inn room with a loaded X-bow and prepare a readied action to shoot the first person to walk through the door. That person may even be aware of you and unsurprised but you're still going to get a shot off. Of course, knowing there is an opponent with a readied X-bow on the other side of the door does offer certain opportunites but it doesn't prevent the use of the tactic.
You do raise an interesting rules question though (and here I am without my PHB handy). I wasn't aware that a readied action didn't allow a move action (as you seem to indicate - I'll have to check this one out later); so, that led me to wonder if the Kenku could shoot and then gain surprise which they could use to leave? Or would the execution of the readied action spoil a surprise round?
In my current understanding the PC's will be pretty obvious lumbering around the labyrinth with lights. All the Kenku have to do is set up an ambush, lure the PC's in and fire when they get in range then use a move action to leave. Granted, there is quite a bit that could go wrong with this plan if the PC's were to use decoy tactics and "surprise" the Kenku; however, the fact that they don't have darkvision and are unfamiliar with the labyrith presents a distinct disadvantage adding to thier already considerable challenge.
It looks like I've got some rules checking to do - thanks for the tip.
Here's a portion of the SRD on Ready:
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READY
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
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So yes, the kenku can't shoot and move further than 5 ft with a readied action. They don't get another action until a full round has passed. I would also rule that the readied action is the surprise round (which was designed to prevent one side in a battle from overwhelming the other before they had a chance to respond).
You do raise an interesting rules question though (and here I am without my PHB handy). I wasn't aware that a readied action didn't allow a move action (as you seem to indicate - I'll have to check this one out later); so, that led me to wonder if the Kenku could shoot and then gain surprise which they could use to leave? Or would the execution of the readied action spoil a surprise round?
To clarify, I believe the remark above refers to the fact that a surprise round allows only a partial action. Thus, the kenku can ready an action, but it's largely unnecessary because, assuming the PCs are lumbering around in armor with torches, the Kenku will almost certainly surprise them. The kenku then get a free partial action (the surprise round) in which they can either move or fire their crossbows (but not both). Presumably, the readied action would still end up using this surprise round time, so it is really the same thing (I wouldn't give them both a readied action AND a surprise round). In the following round, everyone acts according to Initiative rolls, so it's possible that the kenku will get to go again, with the PCs still flat-footed, if they roll particularly well on their Initiative rolls.
Hope that helps.
O
To clarify, I believe the remark above refers to the fact that a surprise round allows only a partial action. Thus, the kenku can ready an action, but it's largely unnecessary because, assuming the PCs are lumbering around in armor with torches, the Kenku will almost certainly surprise them. The kenku then get a free partial action (the surprise round) in which they can either move or fire their crossbows (but not both). Presumably, the readied action would still end up using this surprise round time, so it is really the same thing (I wouldn't give them both a readied action AND a surprise round). In the following round, everyone acts according to Initiative rolls, so it's possible that the kenku will get to go again, with the PCs still flat-footed, if they roll particularly well on their Initiative rolls.
Hope that helps.
O
Actually, that does help quite a bit as it alleviates some of the concern I have over a TPK situation. Its amazing the difference a "move" can make (hence the Spring Attack Feat I suppose).
Cheers,
C.
My plan is to have the Kenku manoeuvre in advance of the party with one to use mimicry as a lure. They all prepare a readied action to fire their crossbows when the PC’s come to within 30feet so they can get their sneak attack damage on the flatfooted PC’s then to take a move action to disappear through a secret door (opening the door is a free action for the Kenku).Just to help your players a little, you can't ready actions outside of combat. Surprise round should be easy enough for the Kenku to get, but allow your party a listen check vs their move silently to avoid a surprise round. Also, on the surprise round, the Kenuku can either fire or move through the door, they can't do both. In this case as long as someone in the party beat them on initiative, they can get up, attack, and possibly interpose themselves between the Kenku and the doorway.
Also, don't forget that the kenku are still medium sized creatures... in the narrow 5-ft. passageways, strictly speaking, only one or two of them can approach or target the party from a given side at one time. So even a party of six kenku with sneak attacks and crossbows will have to either split up and flank the entire party (which could be difficult to do with so many secret doors around... surely the party will notice when doors begin opening by themselves), or only 1 or 2 shots get fired in a single round. This will get the party on their toes, showing them the threat, but won't decisively wipe them out before giving them several good chances to respond aggresively or defensively.