ASEO wrote:
"6. Area #19 is noted as being completely submerged. If the stairs from #18 descend at a 1:1 rate, then the floor of #19 is 10ft below #18. If all areas have a 20ft ceiling, and the water starts halfway down the stairs, then the water in areas #19-22 should be only 5ft deep with 15ft of air above. Is this correct?"The idea was to have the whole of areas 19-22 completely submerged, and I can see how the map and the distances involved sort of betray that. I suggest extending the stairs to make it work, as you'll have a lot more fun with a fully submerged shower area than one with only 5 feet of water.
Is anyone having a problem with this section being completely submerged under water? You know, problems like fighting, breathing, light... the basics. From Tyralandi Scrimm's perspective it only required a portion of the party (I think they initally sent in 5 and then 4 the second time) and they just received scratches and bruises.
I have not familiarized myself with underwater fighting rules yet, but the players basically have to go in there to get the lantern, otherwise they're not going to be able to open the mouth door. I'm thinking it will be fun sending them in underwater, I just think I'm going to have to do a lot of research before this encounter.
I have been confused about this section for a while. Erik states that it is completely submerged and I agree that would be more fun (especially since it will be much more challenging, as long as it is not too challenging).
In addition to the discrepancy in "stair length", the description states that the water elemental will "wait until the torchbearer is in the middle of area 19 before attempting to quench the torch". If the room is completely under water, then it would be pretty difficult to get a lit torch in there.
Secondly, it states that it is a safe assumption that PCs will be standing during combat. Is that because it is assumed that they enter the water in full plate? One of my PCs is a monk. Unless he just finished a Hungry Man TV dinner, I think he would be rather bouyant and most likely swimming. Of course I just read the DMG and it says you only need 16 pounds to weight down a medium creature enough to establish a firm footing. The monk and the psion might have a problem but the others should be fine (looks like they will be doing a lot of swim checks and that water elemental is going to be kicking some A$$ on them since they don't get the "grounded" modifier).
I just calculated the breath thing and at a Con of 15, that is 30 rounds of holding your breath (barring no combat). One could survey the whole area in about 20 rounds (depending on what constitutes half movement, I used 10 feet). Throw in a handful of standard actions and it sounds doable.
I was surprised to not see anything that mentions taking damage underwater adversely affects your ability to hold your breath. I would think that a Con check with the DC being the damage dealt would be a good way to show the ill effects of holding your breath while in full combat. For perspective: I'd like to see you continue to hold your breath while someone punches you in the gut.
...Man I love this stuff...
And this is just the first of 12!!!
Underwater combat at first level can be a beast, slashing and bludgeoning damage is half of normal and a -2 to attacks is really bad thing at first level!
The basics are that you can hold your breath for as many rounds as twice your con score, must make a swim check of DC 10 to move, and ranged attacks take a -2 for every 5 feet of water the projectile must pass through.
It's all in the DMG (underwater combat 92-93; drowning rules 304).
Clever PCs will lure the creatures out of the water to battle them... or lure them to the surface where the archer(s) take them out??
Out of curiousity, what would be the effect of a creature that doesn't need to breath? My group is just starting to talk about rolling up characters for this campaign (I really wanted to wait, but one of them is really excited... they haven't played AP1 yet though, so I will likely be able to talk them into that one first) and one of the players is seriously considering playing an Air Genesai who doesn't need to breath. As this is the party wizard it isn't likely that he will be doing much fighting, but can he cast spells with verbal components? Obviously creatures that breathe underwater can (sea elves, etc.) so why not someone who doesn't need to breathe?
Sean Mahoney
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My take on it was that with 20 ft ceilings in the lower chambers, if the stairs went down 10 ft then "completely submerged" could mean the characters can't wade through the water but have to swim through, while leaving 10 ft of air space above for the thing about the water element waiting until they reach the middle of area 19 before attacking.
The description of that area caused a bit of head-scratching on my part as well but I just went with the explanation above.
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Out of curiousity, what would be the effect of a creature that doesn't need to breath? My group is just starting to talk about rolling up characters for this campaign (I really wanted to wait, but one of them is really excited... they haven't played AP1 yet though, so I will likely be able to talk them into that one first) and one of the players is seriously considering playing an Air Genesai who doesn't need to breath. As this is the party wizard it isn't likely that he will be doing much fighting, but can he cast spells with verbal components? Obviously creatures that breathe underwater can (sea elves, etc.) so why not someone who doesn't need to breathe?
Sean Mahoney
Then they can't drown. They may not be able to fight effectively (there's a lot of penalties to underwater combat), or move very fast, but at least they won't die from drowning. It's a small boon to make up for that EL +1 thing.
Then they can't drown. They may not be able to fight effectively (there's a lot of penalties to underwater combat), or move very fast, but at least they won't die from drowning. It's a small boon to make up for that EL +1 thing.
Well, to be fair, the EL +1 thing he is going for is the +2 dex, +2 int and the ability to naturally levitate (throw in a feat that allows you to split the duration throughout the day and you are pretty set up for fighting as a mage). The whole not breathing thing is just a side benefit.
Sean Mahoney
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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In addition to the discrepancy in "stair length", the description states that the water elemental will "wait until the torchbearer is in the middle of area 19 before attempting to quench the torch". If the room is completely under water, then it would be pretty difficult to get a lit torch in there.
Keep reading.
"Once the elemental has achieved darkness (or if no characters hold an everburning torch), the creature leads off with its vortex before moving in with slam attacks."
See also the paragraph two above the one that begins "Creature" for an overview of lighting conditions and the first mention of an everburning torch.
The intent is that the showers are totally submerged. The "torchbearer" in question is holding an everburning torch, which works underwater.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
In addition to the discrepancy in "stair length", the description states that the water elemental will "wait until the torchbearer is in the middle of area 19 before attempting to quench the torch". If the room is completely under water, then it would be pretty difficult to get a lit torch in there.
Like Erik said, the text assumes the PCs have the everburning torch. Also, magical flame can be quenched by water elementals.
...magical flame can be quenched by water elementals.
Ahhh, thanks Rob. That was the little tidbit that was missing. I was unaware of that. "Quenching" the sunrod just did not make sense and "everburning" to me meant that it would burn forever. Is an everburning torch a common torch with continual flame cast on it? Cause I did look up Continual flame and it even specifically states that it can not be "quenched".
However, I apologize, since I should have read up on Water Elemental. It says in the MM that "the creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals the elemental's HD)"
I'm planning on running this encounter either tonight or tomorrow. I had a few questions.
First, What does a water elemental look like in water? I'd assume it was either invisible, or an area of turbulence similar to the cloaking effect of the predator in the predator movies. (I'm going to assume the second) I know as the DM it's my choice, but I was just wondering if this was established, since I haven't read it anywhere.
Second, the SRD says an everburning torch is just a normal torch with continual flame cast upon it. The description of the water elemental says it can douse magical light based as dispel magic (levels based on hit die). Dispel Magic DC is 11 + caster level. What would we assume the caster level of the creator of the torch to be? More importantly, would you consider the torch to be permanently doused, or just temporarily?
First, What does a water elemental look like in water?
I imagine it to appear as an area of turbulence.
Second, the SRD says an everburning torch is just a normal torch with continual flame cast upon it. The description of the water elemental says it can douse magical light based as dispel magic (levels based on hit die). Dispel Magic DC is 11 + caster level. What would we assume the caster level of the creator of the torch to be? More importantly, would you consider the torch to be permanently doused, or just temporarily?
I consider it magical light, so the Dispel Magic DC is 11+3 (min caster level for continual flame) = 14. Elemental has 2 HD so needs to roll 12 or higher to douse it. I would consider it doused for 1d4 rounds, as stated in the dispel magic entry for dispelling magical items (since continual flame is a permanent spell).