Hello everyone!
A friend of mine recently bought Dunjinny and we felt it brought a brand new twist to our gaming sessions! I felt like buying it too, but then I saw there were many more softwares that looked as interesting!
What about the one(s) from ProFantasy Softwares? Is Dunjinni better because it's an all-in-one software?
Help me here!
Fred
Dundjinni produces exquisite maps for small areas - floorplans and dungeons and the like. Of the commercially available mapping programs it has the best ease of use, and the final maps tend to be just beautiful to look at. That being said, even when you buy the additional art packs, you'll find that you need art that isn't available. You'll find you need to make a dungeon twice as large as the available mapping area, which is NOT adjustable, and you'll find (and don't get me wrong, I love and use the program) that on an older machine it runs extremely slow. If you only need to make small maps and you want them to look really pretty, Dundjinni is probably your best bet.
Profantasy's Campaign Cartographer pro has much greater capabilities mapping wise than Dundjinni, but the learning curve is really steep. The maps CAN look as pretty, but it takes more skill to make them so, and, again, it runs awfully slowly, especially on an older machine.
There is also AutoRealm (a free program whose difficulties lie primarily in lack of symbol libraries) and Fractal Mapper (by NBOS?) which I don't know much about, as the demo crashes my computer with such frequency that I haven't been able to test it.
Note that Dundjinni has a strict EULA that doesn't permit you to do a lot of things with the maps, while Campaign Cartographer lets you use the maps professionally...
The pro mappers will tell you that nothing beats photoshop for mapping, but then they have a talent for it which most of us lack.
- Ashavan
As a variant of the topic (don't I love variants), how about the best freeware/shareware application?
I was going to buy mapping software, then I realized that when my PCs are walking into a dungeon, I only want them to see "where they are" which means I'd have to hide most of the map with other pieces of paper. And since we use 1" base models, printing the maps became a chore. So I went back to using 1" grid dry erase for battles. I don't really need pretty maps that only I'll see...
So I guess my question is, how do you folks use maps created on one of these programs?
I was going to buy mapping software, then I realized that when my PCs are walking into a dungeon, I only want them to see "where they are" which means I'd have to hide most of the map with other pieces of paper. And since we use 1" base models, printing the maps became a chore. So I went back to using 1" grid dry erase for battles. I don't really need pretty maps that only I'll see...
So I guess my question is, how do you folks use maps created on one of these programs?
Dundjinni allows you to print a battle map that only shows players certain elements, so that isn't so much of a concern. I use the map making capabilities to generate ideas... I've had some pretty cool ideas come out of maps that I was making just for the hell of it.
If that doesn't make sense (and it might not) please chalk it up to the fact that I'm sky high on Nyquil at the moment with a cold.
- Ashavan
Another option that might work for you if you have a the funds for it. I was once in a group (about 5 years back) whoes DM managed to get his hands on a digital projector. You know the kind that plugs into the back of your laptop or PC and is primarily used for meetings and presentations? Well what he did was take the projector and mount it above the gaming table facing down onto the table itself.
What he would do is take the maps he wanted to use, be it a home made map, or one he tore out of a Dungeon Magazine or a module and scan it into photoshop. He would then make a mask over the image that he scanned that covered the whole map with black (or whatever color he wanted to use to prevent it from being visable) He would then of course shoot the whole thing through the projector and onto the gaming table.
Through trial and error he was able to size the projection to where it had the 1X1 in grids to scale. As a party went through the dungeon, he woudl use the erase tool on photoshop to erase that part of the map thus showing the progress without giving away the whole map!
There are pros and cons to this idea though.
The first major con is the price. Lets not even mentiont he laptop cause most of use have access to either a laptop or a desktop and this ised would work for either one. But the cost of the projector can really hit your pocket. I have seen them for around 500.00 on e-bay but I really dont know which ones are any good.
A VERY MAJOR PRO is that it takes up absolutely no table top space. You can put all your stuff all over the place and only have to move it when the map starts to impeed.
Another pro is that the projector adds reading light to the table, thats always a plus when playing in a basement. And not to mention it looks reall cool!!!!!
Just putting my 2 cents in.. hope it helps!
|
I've started work on a new mapping tool. I'd been using TMapper (google is your friend), but it's written in VB6 and pretty slow when you've got a large map. :( So I started a thread at the www.dmgenie.com forums and got some ideas for what a good mapper should include. You can see my current UML design docs at my web site, www.eeconsulting.net/tmp/. Note that there are three PDFs, one for use cases, one for sequence diagrams, and one for class diagrams. The .XMI file can be imported into many UML modeling tools. I've started coding a proof of concept and hope to have some working within a few days.
The project, including the designs already available, are under the GNU Public License. When the Java version is finished, I will be rewriting it in C++ (I want to learn Qt4 from www.trolltech.com and I suspect that the Java version will be only slightly faster than TMapper).
There are a few key design constraints:
* Must have fog-of-war support. How this will be implemented is TBD (will it be draw-a-path-and-expose-that-area or select-grid-squares-to-reveal?).
* Must allow the user to project a grid onto the battlemat, then measure from one side of the map to the other with a ruler. Typing in the result will automatically scale the map so the projected image is a 1" grid. :)
* Must have support for multiple layers. At a minimum, there will be the primary map image, a layer for permanent additions to the map (for cave-ins and such), a layer for things invisible to the PCs, a layer for things visible to the PCs, a layer for the grid, and a layer for the fog-of-war. (I think the highlighting discussed in the next item will be on the grid layer, but that may change.)
* Ideally would support highlighting of area effects (fireball based on intersections, grenade-like missiles based on center of square). Spell effets on the invisible layer will show up for the DM, but not for the players. However, the players will see area effect outlines for their own spells and for the squares that opponents threaten (assuming they know the opponent has reach; this will let them accurately determine how they want to move). I also want to find some way to allow the players to move their figs on the map. My projector has a remote control with a "mouse" on it, and there's a USB cable that goes from the projector to the laptop. A player could move the mouse where they want their PC, then click "done" to move it. I want highlighting to show green/yellow/red for distances that are within a move-equivalent action, within a double-move, and everything beyond a double-move, respectively.
I think with just those features, the program would be useful, but I have a lot of other ideas as well. This is the first object-oriented project of this size that I've worked on from scratch. I'm doing the analysis, design, and coding myself, with input from some designers/programmers on the DMGenie forums. I may or may not post here when I get something working; if you're interested, you're better off either watching my web site, above (can't guarantee the location won't change), or monitoring the thread on DMGenie's forum. I'm also going to try to post an announcement on Jans' site at www.d20srd.org when I have something worth announcing. :)
I only tend to worry about pretty maps for my own characters. like my 21st level Psion who used Genesis and created his own demi plane. Dagalk had a castle created and owned some land, his wizard friend helped mold it to his whims. thats usually what i use maps for at least.
ViewingDale (www.viewingdale.com) has been released this month for the PC which uses hardware accelerated graphics to get really fast mapping updates. Also the map is not limited in any dimension and its a zoomable browser so you zoom in for more detail and print it when your happy.
Its also networked so you can connect several players together and move bits of the map about so everyone sees the map update.
Oh and the additional downloads for extra artwork are free.
ViewingDale (www.viewingdale.com) has been released this month for the PC which uses hardware accelerated graphics to get really fast mapping updates. Also the map is not limited in any dimension and its a zoomable browser so you zoom in for more detail and print it when your happy.
Its also networked so you can connect several players together and move bits of the map about so everyone sees the map update.
Oh and the additional downloads for extra artwork are free.
I checked out the website yesterday and all I can say is WOW!! This looks like a really neat program - I'd love to have a chance to fiddle with it.
ViewingDale (www.viewingdale.com) has been released this month for the PC which uses hardware accelerated graphics to get really fast mapping updates. Also the map is not limited in any dimension and its a zoomable browser so you zoom in for more detail and print it when your happy.
Its also networked so you can connect several players together and move bits of the map about so everyone sees the map update.
Oh and the additional downloads for extra artwork are free.
I can't help but notice that the application seems geared solely as a graphical overlay tool. It doesn't seem to actually help you create the maps in the first place. If this is incorrect, could someone post a screenshot of the UI controls? I'm curious to see if this has tools comperable to AutoRealm, specifically distance measuring. If I have to lay a piece of string on the screen and extrapolate distance from it, I'm very not impressed.
I can't help but notice that the application seems geared solely as a graphical overlay tool. It doesn't seem to actually help you create the maps in the first place. If this is incorrect, could someone post a screenshot of the UI controls? I'm curious to see if this has tools comperable to AutoRealm, specifically distance measuring. If I have to lay a piece of string on the screen and extrapolate distance from it, I'm very not impressed.
ViewindDale is a mapping program. Here is a version of Conwy Castle made on it. There is a dude shooting with a short bow (Range = 60') at the dragon. Range marker shows several 60ft range increments to it. You can create your own rulers too if you dont have one the right size.
[IMG]http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/8199/conwycastle15hc.th.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/561/reddragon12nu.th.png[/IMG]
The UI is basically select an icon which is smaller than your current icon from a directory list and put it down on the map. You move and rotate them with the mouse by grabbing hold of them and dragging. There is a walkthrough with pics on Contents page 2 of the web site.
ViewindDale is a mapping program. Here is a version of Conwy Castle made on it. There is a dude shooting with a short bow (Range = 60') at the dragon. Range marker shows several 60ft range increments to it. You can create your own rulers too if you dont have one the right size.
[IMG]http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/8199/conwycastle15hc.th.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/561/reddragon12nu.th.png[/IMG]The UI is basically select an icon which is smaller than your current icon from a directory list and put it down on the map. You move and rotate them with the mouse by grabbing hold of them and dragging. There is a walkthrough with pics on Contents page 2 of the web site.
Yeah, I looked through the walkthrough. From what I can tell and what you've said, you can't actually draw with it, though. You have to import your maps and images from somewhere else to use them. Since I have to use Photoshop to make the map, why do I need this program? What does this program give me that Photoshop doesn't? The website is rather vague on this point.
It seems rather expensive for what's basically collaging software.
The original post was to address the comments that Koldoon wrote in that the area of the map is not generally adjustable and that some of these programs run very slow both of which is generally not so of ViewingDale though it depends on the graphics card used. I have a 600Mhz machine with an NVidia GeForce2 which is a card too old to buy in the shops and can be found on ebay for a just few notes. This machine runs it quite well though not as fast as my newer machine of course.
All of the points that you bring up are valid and you are correct in that you cannot draw freehand, or do patterned flood fill's etc in ViewingDale and do need to import your custom images from another source but it does give many important benefits that Photoshop cannot do.
Fundamentally, photoshop and similar art packages are bitmap editors and so you have to decide on what scale and area you want your map when you start to draw it. You can make it larger, though there is a moderately strict limit as to how much larger you can make your map due to memory constraints - especially if you want to print it. ViewingDale is able to store a vast expanse of thousands of miles and keep the detail for it at any scale. To have a bitmap of a 5 mile square map at screen res (72dpi) and at miniature scale (1:72) would take about 350 Gigabytes. At 300dpi and with 512Mb of memory you can fit a single layer map of just 77yds square.
Once you have decided on your blank map area in Photoshop you need to draw everything on it. If your smart you could draw bits of it seperately and save them off to use them as brushes to stamp down duplicates of that brush such as cart or wagon for example. If you want to use that brush in the future then you had better draw it high res and scale it down to your current map scale otherwise you will never be able to use it for a map that is of smaller scale than the one you are drawing.
Next, you had better place all of those brush templates on a new raster layer otherwise you won't be able to change your mind later on and move them again. Every extra raster layer increases your memory requirements for the map further restricting your size that you can work with and it also means that your PC has to be a monster if every brush has its own individual layer.
Then once you have meticulously drawn your map doing all of that you can only reuse that map as a source brush for a larger scale maps and never for smaller scale ones and if there is ever a requirement to print your map at a resolution higher than you originally anticipated then your stuffed.
If your map is one that is part of a larger landscape then the next map you draw is going to have to line up with the first exactly. You can take one edge of the first map and copy it to the next but you will have lost all of your layers to do it. As an example of this look at this image.
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1576/todsfrontier0fr.png
This is the edges of two Frontier maps as from from wizards Map a Week by (I think...) Todd Gamble.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mwa/archive2003
As a seriously excellent map maker and Photoshop Whiz, these guys are still having difficulty getting the maps to line up.
ViewingDale doesn't have fixed map edges at all so its a non issue. Since its not a bitmap editor and, as you say, more of a collaging program, then it doesn't have to use layers. All of the images can be reused and have a high probablility of being already drawn by somebody else. Therefore, if those images were to be shared then everybody would not have to keep drawing the same stuff over and over again. The argument for using Photoshop over any other kind of mapping program is similar to asking why anyone should use Photoshop when you can use a pen and piece of paper. The whole point of a mapping program, surely, is not to have to hand draw the map in the first place and if there is a way that you can get your custom player maps without having to do any (or at least most of the) freehand drawing then its got to be worth looking at.
Finally, ViewingDale is a zoom browser and information linker. You cant jump to the interior of a cave entrace using Photoshop, you cant add photos and documents to the map in Photoshop. In ViewingDale, every container can have the capacity table linked to it, every monster have their stats attached etc. And as for cost, Photoshop might be great value for money but its also a whole lot of money too. Amazon.com is selling it for $550 - though programs like The Gimp are free if not quite as fully featured - if your still inclined to draw your maps freehand.
wow you guys are high tech; I just use windows paint or corell draw if I want something pretty.
|
|
With regards to azhrei_fje's program. You should deffinately have Fog of War removeable by squares. I use FG and sometimes is sucks using the draw selection tool to clear the fog. And it would be great to be able to re-fog an area once the players leave it. This would be perfect for mazes and such.
Tam
With regards to azhrei_fje's program. You should deffinately have Fog of War removeable by squares. I use FG and sometimes is sucks using the draw selection tool to clear the fog. And it would be great to be able to re-fog an area once the players leave it. This would be perfect for mazes and such.
Tam
What you really want is defined light sources. This is basically how many 3d games work. You declare a light source, and the rendering determines how much light to apply to textures. In something like this, you could do something much simpler. Here's an idea for a complicated version:
Make two layer types, a line of site layer and a light source layer. You can attach properties to objects (be they characters, monsters or static objects for lighting) for the type of vision and the light source they have available. These layers can then automatically compute what the players can see, based on their location, the light available and their type of vision. Overlaying these layers onto the map allows you to filter out the visible map based on player location and any variables.
So if the elf rogue is scouting ahead of the fighter, who is carrying a torch, he can see farther than the torchlight would normally allow. Based on parameters stored in the map and actors though, you wouldn't have to figure it out.
You could create some optional toggles as well, such as whether revealed map area remains visible and whether or not monsters move under fog of war (even if the map is revealed, the players cannot see monsters moving behind them). You could also apply a light level layer, where areas just have a certain light level regardless of light provided by the players. So if you're outdoors, or in a building with windows on a bright day, or don't want to place torches in the barbarian's festhall, you can just declare an area to be lit.
Battlegrounds: RPG Edition (http://www.battlegroundsgames.com/) does all that. You define the light sources (or modify the ones provided), and the software takes care of revealing the right parts of the map, and obscuring it once the light source has moved on.
It also takes into account bright light radius and shadowy light radius, Dark Vision, Low Light Vision, and Moonlight (ambient light). And it isn't just limited to the lights carried by the PCs. The DM could place torches along the walls of a room or corridor, for example.
There are also tools for manually concealing and revealing the map on a cell-by-cell basis. When used in combination with the dynamic reveals described above, it's a very powerful tool, and ensures that light doesn't go through walls or around corners.
|
I was going to buy mapping software, then I realized that when my PCs are walking into a dungeon, I only want them to see "where they are" which means I'd have to hide most of the map with other pieces of paper. And since we use 1" base models, printing the maps became a chore. So I went back to using 1" grid dry erase for battles. I don't really need pretty maps that only I'll see...
So I guess my question is, how do you folks use maps created on one of these programs?
The answer for campaign cartographer is "layers". Certain information only to be read by the DM can be put on layers which aren't printed out on the players' print out.
A different alternative (used by me) is to just print out the dungeon and cut out each room. Rooms get into play one by one and players can't guess a dungeon's extent by the size of the sheet of paper you use to hide it under... ;-)
Actually a solution without physical print out would be optimal, though (-> beamer). You could show hidden elements (e.g. secret doors, traps) just when your players detect them...
Greetings,
Günther
P.S.
It's true. ProFantasy's three main programmes aim at different uses: Campaign Cartographer for overland maps, realm maps and simple dungeons, Dungeon Designer for you guess what, and City Cartographer with some neat tools that (when properly used) allow to draw whole streets incl. lines of houses in seconds.