I fear this is going to be a long post, but there are some things about Shackled City that I wanted to clear up. So, I’m here looking for advice and opinions on the series as a whole. As a disclaimer, let me tell you all that I haven’t run any of the AP1 adventures yet. I’m moving out of state in a few months and didn’t want to start anything I couldn’t finish, but I figure I could still entertain myself by preparing for it when I find a new regular group to play with.
With that in mind, I’ve gone through the entire series and made some notes on how I would run the story line. What I realized is that I actually only like half of the Path as written. Coincidentally, that’s the entire first half. Everything up through ‘Soul Pillars’ is great. Each adventure expands on the world Cauldron is located in and does a great job building the foundation and expanding on the beginnings of a great campaign. Where it falls apart for me is after that. Starting with ‘Lords of Oblivion’, the PCs spend the last half of their careers going from room to room, fighting what appear to be random collections of powerful people. It seems to plateau at this level and, despite ever more powerful opponents; the adventure never seems to peak.
Like I said, this is a long post so please bear with me while I go into some specifics and talk about some things I don’t like, some things I’d like to have seen, and some ideas for changes. I’m here looking for input and feedback, so I invite everybody to chime in on what they agree or disagree with. Since I have no experience running the series, I’d especially like to hear from those of you that have to get some war stories on how it played out.
SPOILERS FOLLOW.
‘Life’s Bazaar’ thru ‘Smoking Eye’ were great. Great mysteries, great opponents, great everything. It took me a while to come around, but I’ve even started appreciating the weird Fiend Folio critters that were used in the adventures. Still, because I’m never satisfied with anything, there are some things that I’d like to change from the start. For example, I like my D&D Eurocentric and I’m not a big fan of the jungle setting, so I have every intention of moving that. I have a personal fondness for the Duchy of Urnst, so I may go there, but since Underdark access is critical to a few of the stories, that may not fly. Most importantly, though, I don’t intend to put the city in a ‘dormant’ volcano. I spent most of the series hoping the placement was just to make a unique city and was really disappointed come ‘Foundations in Flame’ when they did the obvious and caused it to erupt. I’m sure I can make some lake-encircling valley-ridden city that doesn’t look like it’s a volcano so that when it does erupt there’s more of a surprise. I can even keep the lava tubes under the city so there’s some foreshadowing. Having moved the city out of the jungle, of course, will take some changes in a few of the encounters. Tongue Eater will probably become a were-rat or some other lycanthrope for example.
The biggest let-down from the first half of the series, though, is the reveal of Vhalantru. By which I mean there wasn’t one. I’d like to hear how other parties did it, but I’m not seeing any indication of how or where the party is supposed to figure out his real identity. To have such an impact at the end of ‘Bazaar’ and not be a major player at the end of the series was really a let-down. Somewhere before ‘Oblivion’ I’d like to have an adventure where the party meets the beholder on more even footing. Of course he’ll get away at the end (luck willing), but I think it’s important to keep him in the party’s mind up until he’s finally defeated in ‘Oblivion’. Does anybody have any suggestions for how I could work this? At what point would you guys throw that in there?
Speaking of ‘Lords of Oblivion’, I think that may be the last good adventure in the series (from a reader’s viewpoint). I’d like to compress the last few adventures into one grand yet simpler one. After ‘Soul Pillars’, I’d like the PCs to get drawn into the fight at Thrifrane’s before being led to Vhalantru’s as the big baddy of Cauldron. For him to be a major player, there needs to be fewer conspirators. With that in mind, I’ll probably eliminate most of the Cagewrights and play up Embril and Dyr’ryd. In fact, I’d like to skip ‘Shatterhorn’ all together. As I see it, the party would learn of the church of Wee Jas’ role in the city’s ills in ‘Soul Pillars’. That would lead them to uncover Vhalantru as really being the beholder. I may move the town leader meeting from ‘Foundation’ to an earlier point so Vhalantru’s death can lead directly into the eruption. Once that’s survived, the party can track down the tree of shackled souls below the city and find it guarded by Embril. Smack her down, stop the tree thing, and be done.
Where does that leave Adimarchus? Well, he’s an entirely un-related plot. Embril and Vhalantru weren’t working to free the demon lord, they were just in cahoots with the demodands to open up a gate. The showdown with Adimarchus will play as a continuation of the ‘Smoking Eye’ plot thread. If one of the PCs came away with the smoking eye template, bam! He’s drawn into Adimarchus’ insane machinations. If not, we move on to something else.
And that’s it. Did I miss anything? Did I eliminate any segment of the story that’s actually critical or just too cool to miss? How would you folks go about doing what I outlined here? More importantly, would you?
As always, thanks for reading.
Regarding the whole Adimarchus thing, I'm only just now running Test of the Smoking Eye but one thing I'm planning on doing is having it so that the Cagewrights were plotting to free Adimarchus (which Asylum makes it clear that they were, but rather subconsciously and as a result of Adimarchus' madness seeping out) and they figured that having someone they could manipulate with the Sign of the Smoking Eye would make it easier to free him. Thus, they set up Tercival to get it but when one of the PCs gets the Sign it throws a kink in their plans.
I don't agree that the adventures go downhill after Secrets of the Soul Pillars, but that might give you what you need to link the Adimarchus plot up to the rest.
I think you bring up many good points and I've been thinking about how I want to streamline the second half of the Path (though I did like the Foundations of Flame; I know my PCs are just waiting for the place to erupt, but I still think it's an interesting change from the normal dungeon crawl). But the follow-up where they go get the Tree of Souls seems very roll-play oriented. That's one I definitely need to change somehow.
One thing I'd add in is playing with the Striders has been a lot of fun. They didn't encounter them in "Life'S Bazaar" but they came up when I threw in another adventure ("Forests of Blood," I think, with the fey druids from the Frozen Inferno issue of Dungeon) after "Flood Season".
I had "Tyro" approach them and tell the party that he had been hired by a client -- Meerthan Eliothorn* -- to pick up a package from the Council of Pines. When they were attacked by the feral wolves, they immediately because suspicious of Tyro, then Meerthan and then Shensen (because she's a druid).
* Meerthan's thinking is that he's lost contact with the Council and is worried. The Striders, however, are all off defeating the bandit army mentioned in Zenith Trajectory. So he wants to find some way to sneak a message to the Council without revealing his real ID to the PCs. He figures the Council would send some message if they hear his name and the PCs would be none the wiser.
In Zenith Trajectory, the cryohydra's dead drow has been morphed into a member of the Striders who will have a torn map of the Underdark (since otherwise they don't know how to get from the Pit of Seven Jaws to Bhal-Hamatugn), a holy symbol (of Shaundakul in this case, since it's in the Realms) and a torn note that mentions "Shen" and "Meerthan." They should find it tomorrow and I'm anxious to see how they react to it.
I think I may insert another little adventure after that to whet their curiousity a bit more.
Lastly, if I were running this again, I'd really cut down on the dungeon crawling in "Life's Bazaar" and "Flood Season." It just went on way too long.
I just started my players through Zenith Trajectory, and the first encounter was my first problem for my players plot-wise. They assumed that some of the goings on, like the Elf thief, was part of the larger plot for the session, and that they were supposed to investigate everything that happened and find Maavu and speak to him. I realized afterward, that that is the logical conclusion as a player, but the adventure assumes the players would just walk away from what for my players was an obvious attack on Maavu, that they wanted to solve. As for Zenith, I decided to explain his insanity with a new magic item. I removed the Sphere of the Unseen, and gave him an 'Orb of the Future' wich he got from Crazy Jared. It grants the user the ability to use Augury, and Divination, but each use drops Wisdom by 1 point (Will sv DC 17/19 respectivley) until the character is insane.
Diafanus
Darren, I agree with you about many of the things you said. My two biggest hopes for Age of Worms are 1) less random villains, and 2) don't use dragons as random encounters. I dropped Gottrod and the dragon father from the adventures entirely. My party is currently running through Test of the Smoking Eye and about half of them still believe that the Ebon Triad has something to do with this huge, overall plot. I'd like to see more continuity in the opposition in AoW. I think it's been cool having the party vanquish unique foes, but currently they kind of feel like they've been fighting off many unrelated groups. By the time they reach Lords of Oblivion, I suspect they will have figured out that everything is linked (and, heck, I'm probably just going to have an NPC go "Yes, we've been tracking the connections between the Cagewrights and villain X all along" so they know there's a connection there. I've been modifying the adventures to set up Vhalantru as a big time villain, just inserting him in certain scenes (like having him and Thiferane be lunching at the Cusp of Sunrise in Zenith Trajectory).
My players hated the Demonskar Legacy for the very reasons you listed. It's sad, too, because both the tax riot and the Starry Mirror puzzle are among the best scenes and encounters thus far. But they hated the railroading, they hated that Tercival died, they almost rioted themselves when I did the whole thing with the Chisel, it was nearly a disaster. As for Test of the Smoking Eye, it is by far my favorite adventure in the path. Dave Noonan is a minor deity in my eyes. And my players are loving it too. It takes a planar jaunt and makes it something really cool. Plus, my players are starting to get an inkling of the true plot. Up to this point, the players simply thought this was a power-grab by some greedy elf noble; now, with talks of demonic invasions, fallen angels, and reshaping a layer of the Abyss it's starting to sink in that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Regarding Secrets of the Soul Pillars/Lords of Oblivion, I have to disagree. I think that SotSP is the perfect lead-in, because it slowly unravels information to the party. I like the plot to an avalanche starting with Test of the Smoking Eye. The pebbles begin to roll down the hill in TotSE, then those pebbles knock a few rocks loose in SotSP, then when the revelations come in LoO it's a full-on avalanche, which slams into the party in Foundations of Flame.
Beyond that, I love all the symbolism. It shows continuity, and has a very ancient myth feel to it. I like that.
Really, the big changes I've made to the campaign are dropping the dragons as random encounters, creating extra links between adversaries and the Cagewrights (even though the players don't know about the Cagewrights yet), and I've hardly used the Striders at all.
I, and my players, love the Shackled City path. I can't wait for Age of Worms to start!
Creative Director
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We've learned a LOT about how to put together an Adventure Path with Shackled city, and these posts are really helpful as well in working out the next one. I don't want to give away TOO much about Age of Worms, but I can say that the dragons that appear in this one will have definate reasons for being in the adventure.
I'm not sure what you mean by "random villains," though. If you mean villains with detailed personalities that don't have time to establish a presence in a campaign before initiative is rolled and they're fighting for their lives, then I think that you'll like the direction we're taking with Age of Worms. I hope we'll be able to have the major villains play stronger roles in this Adventure Path, but on a more practical level you can be assured that there won't be as many unique and complex NPCs in Age of Worms. It's probably better to limit a specific adventrue to 1-3 unique villains and give them some screen time, rather than have 13 villains and have their stat blocks take up all the available room in the issue.
Some good points, all. I'm probably going to overload the server with the length of this post, but I wanted to address some of the points you all made above.
Cagewrights were plotting to free Adimarchus and they figured that having someone they could manipulate with the Sign of the Smoking Eye would make it easier to free him. Thus, they set up Tercival to get it but when one of the PCs gets the Sign it throws a kink in their plans.
Good call. This is really a great way to tie the two plot elements together. I may follow the same premise, but that would depend on one of the PCs getting the smoking eye. If they don’t, I’ll be prepared to end it with the destruction of the Tree of Shackled Souls. If they do, then they can easily be drawn to Carceri for the showdown.
Life's Bazaar - My biggest complaint is that the only entrance to a very large underground enclave is under the stairs in a locksmith's shop, and the entrance doesn't even appear to have been sealed. It's not a big deal to fix, but this was annoying to me. There is also the matter of the kidnap victims that were never found. I'll likely have a party with all good-aligned characters, including two paladins. I really can't see my group just letting them go with a shrug and an "oh well, we tried." I'll probably have some working as slaves at Bhal-Hamatugn. Others will be found in a side trek (unpublished) I have in mind along with info that the remainder are dead.
I actually find it kind of fitting that the only entrance to the Gnome enclave was guarded by a locksmith. It suggests that the position of locksmith is almost a tradition rather than just an occupation. By the same token, one entrance is okay with me. There’s probably some history as to how they got the Splintershield Dwarves to guard them from the Underdark.
I will agree with you on the still-missing townsfolk. I hadn’t thought of this, so thanks for bringing it up. I can’t imagine any group of players with a list of names NOT seeing that as a checklist. I’ll have to have Coryston Pike or someone explain that they’re beyond rescue and play up the fact that no more people will go missing.
Zenith Trajectory - No major complaints, but it would be nice to have some explanation of who built the pit entrance to the underdark and put the hydra there.
I’m sure there’s an explanation, just ask Crazy Jared, he’ll tell you several. (heh) Maybe it wouldn’t be so obvious if it weren’t so out in the open. If the party had to actually search to find it, it wouldn’t be such an anomaly.
That does bring up another issue with ‘Zenith Trajectory’, though. Hookface and his/her kin is used poorly in every instance. Its arrival in ‘Foundation’ looks like nothing more than an ‘oh Jeez, we forgot Hookface’ effort to include her in the storyline. Gottrod appearing in ‘Zenith’ is out of nowhere and would seem to overshadow Dhorlot who actually has a pseudo-purpose in the campaign. I think I’ll be changing the red dragon in ‘Zenith’ into another creature (like a wyvern or something) that Jared can cover with illusion to make seem like Hookface herself (with a properly grand announcement, of course). What’s more, the Morkoth should be the grand finale of ‘Foundation’, not Hookface. I think I'll be using Hookface herself somewhere else.
the massive railroad that is the final battle and resulting death of Alek, no matter PC actions. Going off to find an NPC who happens to turn out to be a mad prophet turns me off this one too because the PCs just did that in Zenith Trajectory. Also, Alek's final prophecy states that the PCs must not return to Cauldron but instead seek the sign of the smoking eye, but there is nothing that happens in the next adventure that is critical to saving Cauldron.
I think if the party beats the odds and somehow keeps Alek alive, then they should be allowed to succeed. As I think about it, I can’t think of any reason NOT to let him live. On the off chance the party saves him, I’d be able to play down his contributions to ‘Smoking Eye’ by saying he’s too deep in the grips of the elixir. He’s weak of will and a broken man and not much help to the party who has to lug his admittedly super-strong body through Occipitus. Who knows, maybe they’d chuck him into the fire geyser and get the smoking eye…
Key to Alek, I think, is what others have suggested on these boards before: the party has to meet him before his fall so there’s some foreshadowing and attachment. Meet him once near the start of the campaign where he’s just out being paladin-y. If they meet him later, they can witness one of his feats of enhanced strength. Particularly astute players might even notice his weakened willpower. I don’t mind him dying, but I’m going to do my best to make his death noteworthy. Likewise with Terrem and Zenith whose desiccated corpses I’m going to place very prominently in the soul cages.
Along similar lines, there’ve been a few discussions on the list about how to deal with the invasion of Red Gorge since that plot point is dropped. The best suggestions I’ve heard include having the Storm Blades save the day (ooooh, wouldn’t that burn the players) or even letting Red Gorge fall. Show the party the results of their side-quest. When Red Gorge becomes a territory of Cauldron (and eventually Vhalantru), that can be where you station the half-orc mercenaries when they’re moved out of Cauldron after the fire in ‘Demonskar’.
Reading the adventure, it seems kind of like the PCs aren't supposed to figure out V is a beholder until they actually encounter him below his manor. That doesn't really work for me.
Actually, I think I’d prefer it that way. In fact, I’m going to go the extra step and somehow show the party Vhalantru changing from elf form to beholder. I don’t know how yet, but I want to see their faces when they confront this effete elf and his head sprouts eyestalks and his body whithers away to reveal his true form. Ideally, they’d have confronted him in beholder form a couple times before then so they’ll recognize him then too. Since the oblivion doors seem nearly impenetrable, I may do away with them and not spoil the surprise with all the beholder symbology.
Speaking of which, did anybody catch the small print on the Shator creature template? Apparently when a shator-empowered creature dies, his soul is forever trapped on Carceri. I think that’s a far better location for a rematch with Vhalantru (during ‘Abyss’) than some conjured smoking eye tyrant.
We are told that they are artifact-level power, but there don't seem to be enough spellcasters capable of casting high level spells to craft them. For example, the Ebon Triad is supposed to have made one, but the highest level cleric was Tarkilar, at 7th before his transformation. I don't really
I’m going to try to map this one out too. The first thing I’m going to do is cut the Ebon Triad from the cagewright plot entirely. Their story works just fine as a stand-alone. The first hint of a soulcage I think should come at ‘Demonskar’ (I don’t remember an earlier mention than that) and the scrapped cage materials in what’s-his-name’s forge. Further information can be gleaned from the Cathedral of Wee-Jas and Karran-Kurral. Perhaps if I play up the Spellweaver-designed/fire giant-forged/Theurge-enchanted aspect, the artifact-level power will be easier to digest.
I dropped Gottrod and the dragon father from the adventures entirely.
I half agree with this sentiment. Dragons need to be played with menace, and having one just pop up chasing Crazy Jared (coincidentally right as the party approaches) isn’t the right use. Gotrrod’s gotta go. However, Given the right lead-in, Dhorlot’s got potential. I’m going to add some frescoes around Bhal-Hamatugn depicting the dragon breeding program (in suitable enigmatic, pseudo-religious style) to foreshadow his appearance. Plus it’ll make more sense if the players think of Dhorlot as a the dragon father for when Zarik Dhor makes his appearance in ‘Soul Pillars’
However, all this talk of dragons brings to mind another issue with Shackled City. There’s some repetition of premise, I guess I’d call it. Darren pointed it out with the matching circumstances of Zenith and Alek both being raving prophets the party was sent to rescue. Another mirror is the dragon guardian. Both Karran-Kural and the Fiery Sanctum are ‘guarded’ by a dragon of some sort that the evil inhabitants have made peace with. I don’t know how I’ll play the two prophets (although I may play it up even more and have them both repeat some of the same prophecies), but I’m thinking of changing the two dragon guardians, at least in appearance. The dracolich Vitriss Bale can stay the same stat-wise, but I’ll probably twist his appearance so he looks more alien and spellweaver-esque. Sort of a proto-dragon that’s been lurking in Karran-Kural since before man walked above. Moltenwing I’m thinking of changing into Hookface herself. The encounter can stay the same, but meeting such a legendary dragon would have some weight to it.
All told, I appreciate all the opinions and feedback. Keep 'em coming.
Alright, let's do this.
I'm not sure what you mean by "random villains," though. If you mean villains with detailed personalities that don't have time to establish a presence in a campaign before initiative is rolled and they're fighting for their lives, then I think that you'll like the direction we're taking with Age of Worms.
This is exactly what I mean. It's sort of the supervillain-of-the-week thing. Really, I wouldn't have had such a problem with it if they had all been linked in some way that was obvious to the players. I mean, the Ebon Triad is this cult at the beginning...but then they're not mentioned anywhere else. Now, if the Ebon Triad had been members of a group called the Cagewrights, for example, it might have been better. Or if they'd been members of the Last Laugh. The slavers in Life's Bazaar weren't so bad because it's the intro adventure. But I want each adventure to really contribute to the players' understanding of the overall plot, and the villains are an integral part of that. For example: Zenith Splintershield works GREAT because he shows back up as a Shackleborn. Nabthotoron and the hags are terrible because they come out of nowhere and vanish back to nowhere. Kaurophon is pretty necessary, so no gripes there. After that it's not so bad. Actually, looking at it again, only three adventures have the non-Cagewright oriented aspect that bugs me. Maybe I'm griping over nothing. I guess I'd just like more showdowns with plot-related groups. Something that at the end of the adventure the players go "Ah, so this give us another clue as to why the Last Laugh has been stirring up trouble lately!" as opposed to "Huh. Well, we killed the demon, but Tercival died. What the hell was going on here again? Why did this happen?"
Hookface and his/her kin is used poorly in every instance. Its arrival in ‘Foundation’ looks like nothing more than an ‘oh Jeez, we forgot Hookface’ effort to include her in the storyline. Gottrod appearing in ‘Zenith’ is out of nowhere and would seem to overshadow Dhorlot who actually has a pseudo-purpose in the campaign. I think I’ll be changing the red dragon in ‘Zenith’ into another creature (like a wyvern or something) that Jared can cover with illusion to make seem like Hookface herself (with a properly grand announcement, of course). What’s more, the Morkoth should be the grand finale of ‘Foundation’, not Hookface. I think I'll be using Hookface herself somewhere else.
What I did (and this was purely because I have a gold dragon in the party and don't want dragon enemies to be common) is replaced Gottrod with a volcanic drake (from Draconomicon), then just dropped Dhorlot altogether and replaced him with a similar encounter. I won't be using Zarik Dhor as an encounter just yet. Now, Vitriss Bale on the other hand is perfect, and running into a dracolich when my gold dragon PC thinks he's the last of the dragons will make him freak out. I'll also be leaving Hookface as-is, though I'll probably replace the dragon at the Fiery Sanctum with another creature, though I've not decided yet.
Key to Alek, I think, is what others have suggested on these boards before: the party has to meet him before his fall so there’s some foreshadowing and attachment. Meet him once near the start of the campaign where he’s just out being paladin-y.
I had him be the mentor and arms trainer of my paladin when they arrived in Cauldron. Additionally, I found that adding in mention of him in other adventures worked. Like during Flood Season I had a scene where he rescues a child from rising lake waters. You're right, though. in that introducing him earlier helps a lot. The key to many of the Shackled City's most dramatic moments relies on the PC's familiarity with the NPCs. For example, my party loathes Vhalantru now because I've played him up in ever adventure, whether it was called for or not. The Beholder in LB scared the hell out of them because they were so low level, but they haven't linked the two yet. When they descend into Oblivion and see the beholder carvings, I feel sure they're going to wet themselves. On the other hand, they didn't care about Nabthotoron so beating him was like "Well, now what?" I don't mind some throwaway NPCs early in the campaign, but you also have to be introducing the main NPCs early too.
One other piece of advice: if you have any clerics or paladins in your party, start introducing the Cathedral of Wee Jas early. I've actually replaced the D&D deities with the gods from Green Ronin's sexcellent Book of the Righteous, but it's about the same deal. Start setting them up as adversaries early. In Flood Season, I made sure the encounter at the Cathedral between the party and Embril was...frosty at best. In Zenith Trajectory I mentioned that the Lord Mayor had fallen mysteriously ill, and that while Vhalantru was handling the bureaucratic matters the Cathedral of Wee Jas was handling the "healing and care" for the Lord Mayor. Let me tell you, that got some conspiracy theories going! In the Demonskar Legacy, at the riot outside city hall I had several priests and acolytes of Wee Jas slip inside the building under the guise of "being healers," but when the PCs broke in they found that there was no sign of the Lord Mayor or the priests. More suspicion. Now in Test of the Smoking Eye, I'm having the random expedition of clerics of Wee Jas (the ones hunting the artifact on Occipitus) actually be a hit squad sent to kill the PCs; since the Cagewrights had planned on setting up Tercival to get the Sign of the Smoking Eye, they couldn't let the PCs get it and sent some of their own as assassins. I also ran a sidetrek to send the party to Liberty (from The Game Mechanics' Thieves' Quarter book) where they were turned away from every inn and church because they had been blacklisted by the church of Wee Jas. I can't wait to see the pleasure my players derive from kicking some Wee Jas cleric butt in Secrets of the Soul Pillars.
Good grief. I've got writing to do, and here I am posting this massive thing. Back to work with me.
D'oh! One thing I forgot and then that's it out of me.
It's probably better to limit a specific adventrue to 1-3 unique villains and give them some screen time, rather than have 13 villains and have their stat blocks take up all the available room in the issue.
Agreed! The showdown at Thiferane's place bodes to be difficult to run and not much payoff. One thing I've done to hopefully alleviate some of that "lots of bad guys with no real meaning" feeling is introduce some of them, in different forms, earlier. For example, I replaced one of the villains in Bhal-Hamatugn's prison with the vampire lord that appears in Lords of Oblivion. I know, why was such a powerful vampire in such a low-level dungeon. Well, maybe Zenith found a way to trap him. Hell, I don't know. But the PCs freed him, and he turned into a horde of rats (thank you, Libris Mortis!) and the party will have to fight him. When I drop the bomb on my players that he is also responsible for the near-extinction of the dragons, I think it should be a great encounter.
Regarding the Zenith Trajectory pit, I just played up that it had been clearly weathered and had been there for a while. My players didn't worry too much about it beyond that.
I definitely did away with Gottrod, replacing it with just a simple band of ogres and an ogre mage that made for a fun fight.
Agreed that Zenith shouldn't be crazy, since it starts getting repetitive (I know it could be the shadow of Adimarchus, but I can hear my players scoffing). I gave him a Babylon 5-style keeper (more or less a large eye) that is dominating him and is the Kua-Toas' real "Eye in Darkness."
I'd definitely enjoy hearing what changes people made to The Demonskaar. I'm getting close to it and trying to figure out how to get around the death scene, which I think my PCs will absolutely rebel at (my cleric is very good about getting to people and healing them, so a death pronouncement won't work well). At this point, I'm thinking of having his spirit be led there by Nidrama or something along those lines.
D'oh! One thing I forgot and then that's it out of me.
It's probably better to limit a specific adventrue to 1-3 unique villains and give them some screen time, rather than have 13 villains and have their stat blocks take up all the available room in the issue.Agreed! The showdown at Thiferane's place bodes to be difficult to run and not much payoff. One thing I've done to hopefully alleviate some of that "lots of bad guys with no real meaning" feeling is introduce some of them, in different forms, earlier. For example, I replaced one of the villains in Bhal-Hamatugn's prison with the vampire lord that appears in Lords of Oblivion. I know, why was such a powerful vampire in such a low-level dungeon. Well, maybe Zenith found a way to trap him. Hell, I don't know. But the PCs freed him, and he turned into a horde of rats (thank you, Libris Mortis!) and the party will have to fight him. When I drop the bomb on my players that he is also responsible for the near-extinction of the...
I to have begun doing this. Not only will the cagewrights start making appearnces at the end of flood season (funeral for Sarcem, and possibly a party for the heros), but I run a campaign newsletter and will start mentioning them in the context of helping flood victims and doing other good deeds. Hopefully it will make them seem even more evil when they are finally unveiled.
Regarding the Zenith Trajectory pit, I just played up that it had been clearly weathered and had been there for a while. My players didn't worry too much about it beyond that.
I definitely did away with Gottrod, replacing it with just a simple band of ogres and an ogre mage that made for a fun fight.
Agreed that Zenith shouldn't be crazy, since it starts getting repetitive (I know it could be the shadow of Adimarchus, but I can hear my players scoffing). I gave him a Babylon 5-style keeper (more or less a large eye) that is dominating him and is the Kua-Toas' real "Eye in Darkness."
I'd definitely enjoy hearing what changes people made to The Demonskaar. I'm getting close to it and trying to figure out how to get around the death scene, which I think my PCs will absolutely rebel at (my cleric is very good about getting to people and healing them, so a death pronouncement won't work well). At this point, I'm thinking of having his spirit be led there by Nidrama or something along those lines.
Regarding the Zenith Trajectory pit, I just played up that it had been clearly weathered and had been there for a while. My players didn't worry too much about it beyond that.
I definitely did away with Gottrod, replacing it with just a simple band of ogres and an ogre mage that made for a fun fight.
Agreed that Zenith shouldn't be crazy, since it starts getting repetitive (I know it could be the shadow of Adimarchus, but I can hear my players scoffing). I gave him a Babylon 5-style keeper (more or less a large eye) that is dominating him and is the Kua-Toas' real "Eye in Darkness."
I'd definitely enjoy hearing what changes people made to The Demonskaar. I'm getting close to it and trying to figure out how to get around the death scene, which I think my PCs will absolutely rebel at (my cleric is very good about getting to people and healing them, so a death pronouncement won't work well). At this point, I'm thinking of having his spirit be led there by Nidrama or something along those lines.
One think that might help with the death pronouncement would be to use a vile type damage and its healing restrictions as published in the book of vile darkness. Just a thought. It is always hard as a DM to a dramatic death from one of your NPC's especially when it is important to the story line. I rarely write anything like that into my own plots, and hate it when adventure writers do it. It rarely works out as planned.
I definitely did away with Gottrod, replacing it with just a simple band of ogres and an ogre mage that made for a fun fight.
I too had a problem with the "random encounter dragons." Dragons should never be just random encounters... it cheapens them. They should be rare, and be fully fleshed out...which is what I did.
During the meeting with crazy Jared I decided to have Gottrod attack as planned. The reason was this: Crazy jarred is not crazy...he isn't even human! He is the last known gold dragon in my campaign world and he is a wyrmling (very young). Over the past hundred years his family has been Systematically hunted and killed by Hookface, her offspring, and her minions. She is attempting to locate the gold dragons family treasure trove, which is located under "jarreds hut". Jarreds names is really Azarath goldmoon. He was in the care of his uncle, but his uncle flew away a few years ago to challenge hookface in a final battle and never returned. Azrath...knowing that he was the last of his family, had to protect their treasure...He knew he wasn't strong enough to face gottrod (son of hookface)or any of her minions; so he adopted the guise of crazy jarred and built the hut over the cave entrance. There, he "hid out" for many years, pretending to be a crazy old hermit, and hoping he wouldn't attract Hookface's attention. The heroes come upon him just as he is attacked by gottrod. After the battle he revealed his true nature to them and asked them for help in protecting his families trove. So thats what I changed about that. I might have hookface find out that the heroes killed her son and "seek them out" in cauldron. : )
With Dhorlort, I left him the way he was written. I made it clear that the females he was "impregnating" were little more than his slaves, and that they had been severly "injured" during the "process". I put them all in a room for my PC's to find. Even though the kuotoa females were evil by nature...it still angered my PC's to see them so "abused", and made for a good showdown with the dragon father. Also, I might have more of his progney appear later in the adventure as allies of the cagewrights. Anyway, just wanted to key in. You guys have posted some great stuff keep it coming!
I definitely did away with Gottrod, replacing it with just a simple band of ogres and an ogre mage that made for a fun fight.I too had a problem with the "random encounter dragons." Dragons should never be just random encounters... it cheapens them. They should be rare, and be fully fleshed out...which is what I did.
During the meeting with crazy Jared I decided to have Gottrod attack as planned. The reason was this: Crazy jarred is not crazy...he isn't even human! He is the last known gold dragon in my campaign world and he is a wyrmling (very young). Over the past hundred years his family has been Systematically hunted and killed by Hookface, her offspring, and her minions. She is attempting to locate the gold dragons family treasure trove, which is located under "jarreds hut". Jarreds names is really Azarath goldmoon. He was in the care of his uncle, but his uncle flew away a few years ago to challenge hookface in a final battle and never returned....
This is solid Gold (no pun intended)! Seriously, these boards are a godsend. I don't even want to start DMing this AP, b/c new ideas are being discussed all the time. From these boards I literally have 20 pages of add-on notes that everyone here has supplied me with. I hope you guys don't mind me stealing some of this stuff...it is just too good!
Thanks! Glad you liked it snake, I will try to get around to posting some of the other things I have changed if time permits...
I definitely did away with Gottrod, replacing it with just a simple band of ogres and an ogre mage that made for a fun fight.I too had a problem with the "random encounter dragons." Dragons should never be just random encounters... it cheapens them. They should be rare, and be fully fleshed out...which is what I did.
During the meeting with crazy Jared I decided to have Gottrod attack as planned. The reason was this: Crazy jarred is not crazy...he isn't even human! He is the last known gold dragon in my campaign world and he is a wyrmling (very young). Over the past hundred years his family has been Systematically hunted and killed by Hookface, her offspring, and her minions. She is attempting to locate the gold dragons family treasure trove, which is located under "jarreds hut". Jarreds names is really Azarath goldmoon. He was in the care of his uncle, but his uncle flew away a few years ago to challenge hookface in a final battle and...
I've also had to alter things considerably to tailor them to my own style and group. I tend not to keep too many secrets from the players once they've discovered things for themselves and I'll dole out the backstory to them afterwards to keep them straight on what is going on. Hence, I've had to do some tinkering here and there, but on the whole so far it's been only some minor changes.
I ran the players through "The Stink" as an interesting interlude between Life's Bazaar and Flood Season. It fit well with the characters and set up an interesting plot device that I employed later in the AP Series. I really didn't mess with much until "The Zenith Trajectory" at which point my story arc differs some from what appears in Dungeon. I wasn't a big fan of Gottrod and Crazy Jared, so I decided to do an overland journey to the north in the mountains using a jumble of the adventure and the gorge from "Chasing the Snake". At the end of the gorge they encountered Maliss and his band of Kobolds who were using the "Pit of Seven Jaws" as a toll route into and out of the underdark. The Stormblades had previously collapsed the other routes into the underdark from the Cauldron vicinity and the characters thought this odd. It's allowed me to play with the plot some and also point them out as pawns to Vhlantru later on in the story. The group also learned from Maliss about Bhal-Hamatugn and journeyed there with the Yuan-ti with some prior knowledge of Dhorlot. I skipped Gottrod all together and crazy Jared was little more than an interesting hermit they met along the way. Once in Bhal-Hamatugn the players learned some background about Maliss's previous dealings with Dhorlot and the Kuo-Toans there and it seemed to make more sense to them. The dragon escaped only to appear later with his progeny (the half-dragon/half-minotaur barbarian) to assault the party.
Ike and Embryl have been tracing the party's progress and engineering events to lead to the death's of the characters, at the request of Vhlantru, and Kaurophon is merely an agent of theirs who is supposed to see to their death on Occipitus. The assassins and priestess of Wee Jas on Occipitus also served as the first overt attempt on the character's lives (I beefed them up a fair bit to make them more of a threat) as the whole 'lens of the blacksun' thing didn't make much sense to me.
After surviving Occipitus and returning, the characters found that plane shifting can have some unpredictable consequences and they found themselves reappearing on the prime off the western coast of Sasserine, some 200 miles out into the ocean. I ran the group through "The Death of Lashmire" after they had to swim for their lives, as another interulde, and they eventually teleported back to Sasserine with a scroll that they found in Lashmire's abode. On the march back from Sasserine they were accosted by Dhorlot and his progeny and it was a tough fight to the bitter end. It tied the dragon in with the cagewrights and let the characters know precisely that someone was not happy about their return. They really found this out when the assassination attempt in Secrets of the Soul Pillars caught them off guard as they were relaxing for the night, swapping tales with Kristof at the shrine of Pelor. From there they were certain that the higher ups in the Temple of Wee Jas wanted them dead for some reason, and it really made the encounter with Ike Iverson all the more pertinent.
After dispatching with Ike, the characters met with the Stormblades to talk about Todd's death and their involvement, and from that point I had them lead the characters (figuratively) to Karran Kural. They told the party that there was yet another underdark entrance underneath the Temple of Wee Jas, beneath the catacombs, and that it was through there that the characters found the Soul Pillars and will eventually find the hidey-hole of the cagewrights and the Tree of Shackled Souls. It also gave me a good chance to throw a huge undead fest at the players straight out of Libris Mortis, and flesh out the lower chambers of the Cathedral of Wee Jas. It has tied things in nicely. It also gives the characters a quicker route to the underdark and their informant Maliss, who can perhaps guide them to the ruins of Shatterhorn.
This was just some tinkering that I did as it makes the characters appear to take more initiative rather than simply have Jenya cast Find the Path and send them on their merry way once again. I'm trying to make it feel to the players that they are discovering the adventures as they go rather than having them stuffed in their pockets from the highest level priest in town and told "I'll pay you if you succeed..."
The underdark entrance under the Cathedral catacombs will be their secret that they can use against he Cagewrights instead of them following some random lava tube to the adventure before the slaughter. Having a pseudo-ally in a high level Yuan-ti ranger with intimate knowledge of the underdark beneath Cauldron and Shatterhorn will also be a nice tie-in come the time when they finally strike blows against the 13.
Cheers!
It's probably better to limit a specific adventrue to 1-3 unique villains and give them some screen time, rather than have 13 villains and have their stat blocks take up all the available room in the issue.
Yey! I like the way you're thinking.
It's sort of the supervillain-of-the-week thing. Really, I wouldn't have had such a problem with it if they had all been linked in some way that was obvious to the players. I mean, the Ebon Triad is this cult at the beginning...but then they're not mentioned anywhere else. Now, if the Ebon Triad had been members of a group called the Cagewrights, for example, it might have been better. Or if they'd been members of the Last Laugh. The slavers in Life's Bazaar weren't so bad because it's the intro adventure. But I want each adventure to really contribute to the players' understanding of the overall plot, and the villains are an...
This puts me in mind of City of Heroes, where you fight a gang of villains for several levels, only to learn that they are being manipulated by a tougher group of crooks, which you fight for several levels before learning that they are just tools of another band of evildoers. Against the Giants worked the same way, right?
I definitely did away with Gottrod, replacing it with just a simple band of ogres and an ogre mage that made for a fun fight.
Could be a good way to introduce the Blue Duke or his flunkies...
Firstly grat thread! There is an abundance of clever ideas and legtimate gripes found amoungst the posts here which have been both entertaining and useful for DMs like myself.
I agree with much of the posters here in terms of foreshadowing NPCs and events, dragon use, the anti-climax and the out of place use of some events and characters.
In terms of the Demonskar Legecy, most people seem to rate this adventure quite poorly in this thread. I, on the other hand, like this adventure a great deal. While I understand your grievances about Alek's death (it really did feel like a 'this is going to happen no matter what you do' situation) and the ending (you MUST go to the Abyss or....it will ruin the next adventure), the rest of the adventure is excellent.
I love the demon but I will give the players a bit of history/background to this fellow before they fight him. In addition the Myriad creatures ('mirror travellers) are great. I am thinking of creating at least one side trek/adventure to use these fellow again. Tieing them in to the AP is another story.
I any event I better go. Time to go home.
Delvesdeep