I'm trying to help out a friend of mine who wants a TWF'ing Rogue. In a previous campaign, he witnessed another friend of ours implement a Feint Rogue and he'd like to do that too.
Here's my attempt to accommodate him.
(1st Lvl Half-elf Skill Focus) - Bluff
(1st Lvl Feat) - Weapon Finesse
(2nd Lvl Rogue Talent) - Combat Trick - Combat Expertise
(3rd Lvl Feat) - Two-Weapon Fighting
(4th Lvl Rogue Talent) - Offensive Defense
(5th Lvl Feat) - Two-Weapon Feint
(6th Lvl Rogue Talent) - Weapon Training - Weapon Focus
(7th Lvl Feat) - Improved Feint
What I think I've got here is a Rogue that can Feint in just about any situation and when he doesn't need to Feint (when Flanking with an Ally) he can maybe land to separate Sneak Attacks.
What are your thoughts? Where you take this chain past 7th level?
Note - Half-elf is locked in (I would have preferred Human, personally)
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Feint is a move action if you use it with Imp. Feint, so one attack when you do each round. When you get Greater Feint you start having fun with Feinting so go there. You may want to at some point take the ninja trick (pressure points) talent to get a bit more out of sneak attack and make the foe easier to hit.
Feint is a move action if you use it with Imp. Feint, so one attack when you do each round. When you get Greater Feint you start having fun with Feinting so go there. You may want to at some point take the ninja trick (pressure points) talent to get a bit more out of sneak attack and make the foe easier to hit.
What I'm going for is choices. If I've read the descriptions right - this Rogue can move and Feint or stay put and Feint or move again. Every time he succeeds in landing Sneak damage he gets an AC bonus.
I'm thinking this will allow my friend to enter combat and survive long enough for the rest of the party to get in help him out.
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This has come up a lot. Here's the ninja build I did:
Human
1st - Combat Expertise
H - Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd (Ninja Trick) - Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
3rd - Improved Two-Weapon Feint
4th (Ninja Trick) - Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
5th - Dodge (Kind of an open feat level, since you can't take the next feat in the chain until 9th)
6th (Ninja Trick) - Forgotten Trick (For a Rogue, Weapon Training is probably a better option)
7th - Shadow Strike (Another open feat level)
8th (Ninja Talent) Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9th - Improved Two-Weapon Feint
A few things about this build. It's painful at 1st level, because you can't hit anything without Weapon Finesse, but waiting to take Weapon Finesse gets you to being able to Feint faster.
By 3rd level, though, you will routinely get 1 sneak attack each round, when you can full attack. Flanking is still better, but it helps you go toe-to-toe with an enemy.
At 4th level, I took Offensive Defense, because when you go toe-to-toe with an enemy, you become a target, and Rogue/Ninja hitpoints aren't great. Since you almost always get a sneak attach in, you almost always get the bonus against that creature. (EDITED - Which you've already figured out)
At 8th level, if you can fight the temptation to use Combat Trick at a lower level, it will get you to a full round of sneak attacks three levels earlier (or two compared to a Vanish/Invisible Blade build). Otherwise, you'd have to take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 9th, then Improved Two-Weapon Feint at 11th.
As for Improved Feint - Take it with one of the open feats if you want, but all it really gains you over Two-Weapon Feint is a +2 to hit on the one attack. Or the occasional situation where you only have one weapon out. Pretty much anytime you can use Improved Feint, you can use Improved Two-Weapon Feint, and you'll want the latter when you hit higher levels.
Skill Focus for Bluff is nice, but probably unnecessary. Buy a Mask of Stony Demeanor for 500gp to get a +5. That on top of a decent charisma and putting skill ranks into Bluff should mean you'll succeed against most things.
another option is forgoing the crazily feat-intensive TWF line entirely. either be a half-orc (getting greataxe and falchion) or take the adoptive parentage (tengu) human trait (thus getting every weapon even remotely sword-like) and enjoy the look on your GM's face when you sneak attack with a 2-handed weapon. this lets you make much better use out of improved feint and also lets you get away with having a way lower dexterity stat (I know the core rulebook says dexterity is a rogue's most important stat, but it also says wisdom is important for paladins!)
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Feint is a move action if you use it with Imp. Feint, so one attack when you do each round. When you get Greater Feint you start having fun with Feinting so go there. You may want to at some point take the ninja trick (pressure points) talent to get a bit more out of sneak attack and make the foe easier to hit.What I'm going for is choices. If I've read the descriptions right - this Rogue can move and Feint or stay put and Feint or move again. Every time he succeeds in landing Sneak damage he gets an AC bonus.
I'm thinking this will allow my friend to enter combat and survive long enough for the rest of the party to get in help him out.
Feint is a standard action, so you can always move and feint or feint and move. What Improved Feint lets you do is Feint and attack. To do that, you have to be within a 5-foot step of your reach, and if you are within a 5-foot step, you can just use Two-Weapon Feint. So the only situation where Improved Feint applies and Two-Weapon Feint doesn't is when you only have one weapon out. It would avoid the -2 penalty for two-weapon fighting as well, but see my post above for reasons why you want Two-Weapon Feint.
As pointed out, Improved Feint is a pre-req for Greater Feint, so it might be worth taking just for that. Talk to your GM, though, and find out how he/she rules Greater Feint. It's been discussed many times before, and RAW it appears to only grant the benefit of the feint to one of your attacks (and possibly an attack of opportunity). It's still a move action to use, so you only get one other attack. The denied dex lasts until the start of your next turn, so you would get it if you take an attack of opportunity. It's really for helping your teammates, since by the way it's phrased, it appears to deny the target dex against anyone, not just you. A very powerful debuff, but again, more about helping others than helping you.
If you have Two-Weapon Feint, you could also consider Improved Two-Weapon Feint once you get Improved TWF. That's basically the same thing as Greater Feint.
I think Two-Weapon Feint and Improved Feint are nearly redundant. With Improved Feint, you use your move action so you can still attack that same round. With Two-Weapon Feint, you feint while TWF to give up your primary attack and get sneak with your off-hand.
In that regard, Improved Feint is better. because you're not locked into TWF. But if you're planning on going with TWF, then I think the TWF Feint is better because Improved Two-Weapon Feint means you get sneak attack damage on all the rest of your attacks that round. You're not just limited to a standard action attack.
Also, if you want to maximize sneak opportunities, consider Gang Up.
If he's wanting to play Half-Elf (their Alt. Racial bonus is + 1/2 to Bluff to Feint, so that can synergize nicely), try this set up:
(1st Lvl Half-elf Skill Focus) - Bluff
(1st Lvl Feat) - Combat Expertise
(2nd Lvl Rogue Talent) - Finesse Rogue
(3rd Lvl Feat) - Two-Weapon Fighting
(4th Lvl Rogue Talent) - Weapon Training (Weapon Focus - likely in Shortsword)
(5th Lvl Feat) - Two-Weapon Feint
(6th Lvl Rogue Talent) - ? (Maybe like Surprise Attacks or Offensive Defense or Peerless Maneuver)
(7th Lvl Feat) - Gang Up
(8th Lvl Rogue Talent) - Combat Trick - Improved TWF
(9th Lvl Feat) - Improved Two-Weapon Feint
I like this set up, personally, but YMMV. Half-Elf works well. If he's not married to it, Human not only gets the extra feat, but their Alt. Racial Bonus is +1/6 Rogue Talent, which can be nice (you get an extra Rogue Talent every six levels if you do that ever level, so basically like another extra feat).
A lot of what I'm suggesting here comes from the Shanker build. You don't have to go with that, obviously. But what you're wanting to do is similar from a Feat/Talent standpoint, anyway. You could also consider dropping Skill Focus for Ancestral Arms (Scimitar) and going with Dervish Dance. It'd save you from paying for Agile, but you'd have to bump things back and probably skip Gang Up (in this build, anyway).
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Do with them what you will. Hope that helps!
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In that regard, Improved Feint is better. because you're not locked into TWF. But if you're planning on going with TWF, then I think the TWF Feint is better because Improved Two-Weapon Feint means you get sneak attack damage on all the rest of your attacks that round. You're not just limited to a standard action attack.
This is what I was trying to say. If you want to try to get full round sneak attacks, go Two-Weapon Feint. If all you care about is getting one sneak attack, go Improved Feint. Having both seems redundant.
Gang up is a good suggestion, though I find it hard enough to find one flank buddy, let alone two. I suppose that will depend on the party mix. I've seen some effective reach weapon rogues that use Gang Up.
Looks good on paper. OMG Lots of sneak attacks!
Never works well in practice.
In that regard, Improved Feint is better. because you're not locked into TWF. But if you're planning on going with TWF, then I think the TWF Feint is better because Improved Two-Weapon Feint means you get sneak attack damage on all the rest of your attacks that round. You're not just limited to a standard action attack.This is what I was trying to say. If you want to try to get full round sneak attacks, go Two-Weapon Feint. If all you care about is getting one sneak attack, go Improved Feint. Having both seems redundant.
Gang up is a good suggestion, though I find it hard enough to find one flank buddy, let alone two. I suppose that will depend on the party mix. I've seen some effective reach weapon rogues that use Gang Up.
Gang Up is really good for that enemy who backs up into the corner. It's really only worthwhile for Rogues. And it's situational, but those situations can make it really helpful.
If I'm understanding thing correctly, anyone can stand their ground and attempt to feint and then make a single attack. Imp. Feint allows the PC to move and Feint and make a single attack. Two-weapon Feint is similar to standing and making a single attack, but you're now doing it as part of a full attack.
I get where they might look redundant, but I think what this does is open up options for the Rogue. He's not locked in and so the GM can't have foes reasonably anticipate what he'll do next. My goal is for an effective combatant who can either stand and deliver a reliable sneak attack or move and deliver a reliable sneak attack or stay put and flank with an ally and, again, deliver a reliable sneak attack.
In short - I want this guy to have a decent chance at sneaking every round. He doesn't (rightly so) have a lot STR, so bringing that sneak attack to bear is of extreme importance.
/ Skill Focus: Bluff - to me, it seems like having as high a Bluff as possible is of utmost importance to this build.
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If I'm understanding thing correctly, anyone can stand their ground and attempt to feint and then make a single attack. Imp. Feint allows the PC to move and Feint and make a single attack. Two-weapon Feint is similar to standing and making a single attack, but you're now doing it as part of a full attack.
You are not understanding correctly. Feint is a standard action. So anyone without Improved Feint or Two-Weapon Feint can:
Move, then Feint.
Feint, then move.
They would then get the benefit of the Feint in the following round, for one attack only.
EDITED - Skill Focus... Having a high bluff is important, but at some point enough is enough. A third level Rogue/Ninja with a 14 Cha who puts ranks into Bluff and spends 500gp on a Mask of Stony Demeanor will have at least: +2CHA+3Favored Class+3Ranks+5Mask=+13. A typical DC will be 10+3Hit Dice+2Wisdom Bonus = 15. In other words, you succeed on a 2. Against fighter types who don't have a Wisdom bonus, it's skewed even more. If you happen to run into a Monk or a Paladin with a decent Sense Motive bonus, or if you're fighting a creature with a 1 or 2 int, you might need to roll a 10. To me, it's much more important to get the ability to Feint as a move or as one of your attacks two levels earlier than it is to get a +3 on a skill that's already high enough.
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Gang Up is really good for that enemy who backs up into the corner. It's really only worthwhile for Rogues. And it's situational, but those situations can make it really helpful.
That's true, but you still need two other people to threaten the enemy. In a four person party where two of the characters don't go into melee, it isn't very useful. It's a great feat when the situation comes up, but it's still very situational. Probably no more so than my suggestion for that level, though, which was Shadow Strike (allows sneak attacks when the enemy has partial concealment).
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Looks good on paper. OMG Lots of sneak attacks!
Never works well in practice.
It's not as optimized as a Two-Handed Weapon Rogue, and I'm not going to try to argue otherwise. If he's wanting to optimize for damage, TWF is not the way to go. A Strength-based THF Rogue with Improved Feint and Power Attack will still get a sneak attack off any round he can Full-Attack, and he'll do a lot more damage. Especially at low levels when sneak damage is only 1 or 2 d6.
But if you want to play a TWFing, Feinting Rogue, there are things you can do to help make the build work, and that's what this thread is about.
Gang Up is really good for that enemy who backs up into the corner. It's really only worthwhile for Rogues. And it's situational, but those situations can make it really helpful.That's true, but you still need two other people to threaten the enemy. In a four person party where two of the characters don't go into melee, it isn't very useful. It's a great feat when the situation comes up, but it's still very situational. Probably no more so than my suggestion for that level, though, which was Shadow Strike (allows sneak attacks when the enemy has partial concealment).
Shadow Strike is the other option I was thinking about throwing in there.
You're right, Gang Up's utility really depends upon the group you're in. If you've got four in your party, but those four include a Druid or Ranger with an AC or a Summoner or a longspear wielding Cleric (or whatever) in addition to your Fighter (or whatever), then you've likely got a pretty good chance to make use of it (probably a fair amount, too). Otherwise, it's probably a better idea to take Shadow Strike (because concealment is a killer for Rogues) or possibly Dervish Dance if that's your flavor.
If I'm understanding thing correctly, anyone can stand their ground and attempt to feint and then make a single attack. Imp. Feint allows the PC to move and Feint and make a single attack. Two-weapon Feint is similar to standing and making a single attack, but you're now doing it as part of a full attack.
I get where they might look redundant, but I think what this does is open up options for the Rogue. He's not locked in and so the GM can't have foes reasonably anticipate what he'll do next. My goal is for an effective combatant who can either stand and deliver a reliable sneak attack or move and deliver a reliable sneak attack or stay put and flank with an ally and, again, deliver a reliable sneak attack.
In short - I want this guy to have a decent chance at sneaking every round. He doesn't (rightly so) have a lot STR, so bringing that sneak attack to bear is of extreme importance.
/ Skill Focus: Bluff - to me, it seems like having as high a Bluff as possible is of utmost importance to this build.
You don't make an attack as a part of a Feint. Improved Feint means you can Feint and Attack in the same round. In order to do both in the same round, you've taken up all your actions for the full round (absent Swift and Free Actions). Two-Weapon Feint means you can Feint as a part of the Full Attack TWF option. So again, you've taken up all your actions to Feint and Attack.
The Improved Feint option doesn't suffer the -2 for TWF on your attack. Additionally, you could move to a target, Feint as another move action, then Attack the following round with Improved Feint, which you can't do with Two-Weapon Feint. So, they're not identical. But they're really similar and it seems to me like you'd be wasting a feat.
Improved Two Weapon Feint is better than Greater Feint. Greater Feint still requires you to use a Move Action, but denies DEX until the start of your next turn, as well as to your next attack. So, really, you get to use Sneak on AoO against that target. It doesn't gain you a whole lot. Improved Two Weapon Feint lets you make (at least) three more attacks as a part of a Full Action while TWF, all of which can apply sneak and against all of which the opponent is denied DEX. It doesn't carry through to the start of your next turn, but I'll take that trade any day.
It's totally up to you and your friend. If you like the flavor of Improved Feint, go for it. I don't think you'll be getting your money's worth if you have both Improved Feint and Two-Weapon Feint, but that's just my opinion.
Re: Skill Focus (Bluff) - it's certainly not a bad option. As Ferious mentioned, your Bluff probably doesn't need to be ridiculously high for virtually all your enemies. But, then again, I'm sure your GM would throw somebody with a ridiculously high Sense Motive at you from time to time to remove the Feint option. I was just presenting another option in case your friend was interested. Keeping it as is definitely isn't a bad idea, though.
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When it comes to Feint Builds Bluff is a necessity. Also i strongly advise that the character picks up the Scout and Knife Master archetypes. This will allow him to get SA off when ever he charges.
01 Skill Focus Bluff, Combat Expertise
02 RT Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
03 Two-Weapon Fighting
04 RT Bleeding Attack
05 Piranha Strike
06 RT Weapon Training (Weapon Focus (Dagger))
07 Two-Weapon Feint
08 RT Combat Trick (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
09 Improved Two-Weapon Feint
10 RT Minor Magic (1 level 0 Sorcerer/Wizard Spell)
11 Arcane Strike
12 ART Improved Evasion
13 Deceitful
14 ART
15 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16 ART
17
18 ART
19
20 ART
RT = Rogue Talent
ART = Advance Rogue Talent
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If he's set on being a Half-elf, Skill Focus: Bluff is the one to take. If he's willing to be a Human, though, I still think it's better to have access to Two-Weapon Feint as early as possible. A +3 to Bluff doesn't do much for you until you can consistently Feint in combat. If you want to take it as a Human, take it with the 5th or 7th level Feat, not 1st. There's no sense in taking a bonus to an ability before you take the ability itself.
@Psion-Psycho - With your build, you're waiting until 7th level to gain the main goal of the build. That's a long time to wait. A Half-elf could be Feinting two levels earlier, and a Human could be Feinting four levels earlier.
Piranha Strike - I know it seems like an obvious feat to take, because Power Attack is obvious for most Strength builds, but I don't like Piranha Strike for this build for a couple of reasons. First, it's a penalty to hit, and Rogues will already have a hard time hitting. A Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue will have an even harder time hitting, so an added penalty on top of that is a big deal.
Second, Piranha Strike does not offer the -1/+3 that Power Attack can get you using a two-handed weapon. Not that you are using a two-handed weapon, anyway, but those are the builds that Power Attack usually makes the most sense for. Power Attack on a Two-Weapon Fighting Strength build is much less of a sure pick.
Third, keep in mind that when you use Two-Weapon Feint, the Feint maneuver is performed with your main hand primary attack. So the attack that you make will be with your off-hand. In other words, Piranha Strike will only be providing a +1 bonus for every -1 to your to hit roll per 4 BAB. It makes more sense in an Improved Feint build than it does in a Two-Weapon Feint build.
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If he's set on being a Half-elf, Skill Focus: Bluff is the one to take. If he's willing to be a Human, though, I still think it's better to have access to Two-Weapon Feint as early as possible. A +3 to Bluff doesn't do much for you until you can consistently Feint in combat. If you want to take it as a Human, take it with the 5th or 7th level Feat, not 1st. There's no sense in taking a bonus to an ability before you take the ability itself.
@Psion-Psycho - With your build, you're waiting until 7th level to gain the main goal of the build. That's a long time to wait. A Half-elf could be Feinting two levels earlier, and a Human could be Feinting four levels earlier.
Piranha Strike - I know it seems like an obvious feat to take, because Power Attack is obvious for most Strength builds, but I don't like Piranha Strike for this build for a couple of reasons. First, it's a penalty to hit, and Rogues will already have a hard time hitting. A Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue will have an even harder time hitting, so an added penalty on top of that is a big deal.
Second, Piranha Strike does not offer the -1/+3 that Power Attack can get you using a two-handed weapon. Not that you are using a two-handed weapon, anyway, but those are the builds that Power Attack usually makes the most sense for. Power Attack on a Two-Weapon Fighting Strength build is much less of a sure pick.
Third, keep in mind that when you use Two-Weapon Feint, the Feint maneuver is performed with your main hand primary attack. So the attack that you make will be with your off-hand. In other words, Piranha Strike will only be providing a +1 bonus for every -1 to your to hit roll per 4 BAB. It makes more sense in an Improved Feint build than it does in a Two-Weapon Feint build.
I understand the points you made but i worked it that way because of some of the points you made. The character i posted was the Rogue i played to level 9 before the game died off. Usually if you check out any of my builds i have plans to level 20 because those characters are in games that i know will go to it because the character it self is almost there. I never post characters i my self would not or have not played my self.
It is true that in my build he would have to wait to level 7 to start doing his Feints but that is on purpose. At 8th level is when he gets his 2nd main hand attack giving him at that current level 4 attacks because of the Combat trick obtained for Imp TWF. All levels below 8 it is only 2 attacks. To use that Feint feat would literally get rid of 1/2 of his total amount of hits, if taken before level 8, and still make him suffer the penalties of TWF. Meaning from levels 1-7 if he took the feat any time between then would be a full attack action of feint then stab with a -2 to hit. At 8th level it would be a full attack of feint, stab off, stab main, stab off. So getting it at 7th level is less detrimental then getting it at earlier levels. If i could of i would of obtained it at 8th level but that level is when he needs to pick up Imp TWF so the level before that is what i had to make do with to get the build right.
Piranha Strike i got because a high dex rogue, even with the penalties of TWF, should be able to hit. I know so because ive done it on my rogues and i have 4 of them in total that i have played and designed for Pathfinder. The thing is dont expect all attacks to be a hit. When facing an enemy, and this is true for all if not most encounters, it is best to size them up in the 1st round or 2 to see what you need to roll to hit them. In some cases you can get away with having it going at all times, usually when fighting a lot of targets since there generally weaker to keep them in appropriate CR range, and in some cases you dont even bother having the feat going, usually against big single target creatures since they attend to have high ACs. Of course this primarily applies to those, like my self, that dont bother looking in the monster manuel to know x targets typical AC/DR/HP/Resist/ext especially since the character being played would not know that info.
Though if you are head strong about Piranha Strike then supplement that and Bleeding Attack Rogue Talent for Arcane Strike and Minor Magic.
I would like to note that a lot of the stuff that goes on the forums for the most part is theory craft. Some builds look great on paper and tend to fail in actual use and some are the other way around. I will like to note though this is a character i have played and it did decently well. There were times though the build was absolute garbage but that was because we were fighting things at the time immune to SA like elementals and swarms.
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Personaly my favorite Rogue that i built and played was my Intimidation Rogue. It got to level 16 and i posted it a few times now the entire build to level 20. That Rogue was the most fun i have ever had on a Rogue and i would have to say the most effective of them as well bar far. The following is its build.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Fighter - Lore Warden, Rogue - Thug
-Stats (20 pt)-
STR 28 (Base 15)(+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)
DEX 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
CON 16 (Base 10)
INT 08 (Base 13)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
AC 41 (+ an addition 4 from combat expertise and an additional 5 from defending for a total of 50, also + 10 more from Offensive Defensive)
Touch 21
Flat - Footed 30
-Class / Feats-
R01 EWP Whip, Dodge
R02 Talent Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Whip)
R03 Whip Mastery
R04 Talent Offensive Defense
F05 Mobility, Spring Attack
F06 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
R07 Dazzling Display
R08 Talent Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
R09 Shatter Defenses
R10 Talent Combat Trick (Lunge)
R11 Skill Focus Intimidate
R12 A Talent Improved Evasion
R13 Persuasive
R14 A Talent Entanglement of Blades
R15 Improved Feint
R16 A Talent Feat (Greater Feint)
R17 Skill Focus Bluff
R18 A Talent Skill Mastery
R19 Deceitful
R20 A Talent (w/e u want)
Traits = Bully, Defensive Strategist
-Gear-
+5 Defending Holy Ghost Touch Whip
+5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Shield Cloak
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Natural Armor Necklace
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)
Belt of Physical Might (Str/Dex)
Headband of Alluring Charisma
-Misc-
Character performs a full-round action intimidate to demoralize all enemy targets within a 30ft radius then proceeds to attack with Whirlwind Lunge Attacks that apply Offensive Defense upon all targets or Entanglement of Blades depending on situation. For single targets move action with a whip attack or full-round action intimidate with full attack next round. Intimidate at cap level is d20+48 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Persuasive +5 Cha +9 Str +1 trait) and bluff is d20+38 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Deceitful +5 Cha).
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It is true that in my build he would have to wait to level 7 to start doing his Feints but that is on purpose. At 8th level is when he gets his 2nd main hand attack giving him at that current level 4 attacks because of the Combat trick obtained for Imp TWF. All levels below 8 it is only 2 attacks. To use that Feint feat would literally get rid of 1/2 of his total amount of hits, if taken before level 8, and still make him suffer the penalties of TWF. Meaning from levels 1-7 if he took the feat any time between then would be a full attack action of feint then stab with a -2 to hit. At 8th level it would be a full attack of feint, stab off, stab main, stab off. So getting it at 7th level is less detrimental then getting it at earlier levels. If i could of i would of obtained it at 8th level but that level is when he needs to pick up Imp TWF so the level before that is what i had to make do with to get the build right.
You're forgetting the other big advantage to performing a feint maneuver. It's not just to get a sneak attack, it also denies the target their dex and dodge bonuses to AC against that next attack. I don't have numbers on that, and certainly some creatures won't have a dex bonus, but I'd hazard a guess that on average that offsets the -2 penalty for two-weapon fighting, and in some cases results in a net bonus.
What you're pointing out is not an inherent advantage of Piranha Strike over Two-Weapon Feint, it's an argument that Two-Weapon Feint itself is not worth it. That really depends on how much damage you do without a sneak attack. Piranha Strike helps you do more damage by boosting your static bonuses, but you still need an agile weapon or a strength bonus for two non-sneak attacks to catch up to the damage of one sneak attack.
The problem with Piranha Strike is not that it doesn't compare well with Two-Weapon Feint. They are probably about even in the grand scheme of things, with maybe an edge to Piranha Strike at lower levels. The problem with Piranha Strike is that it doesn't scale well enough for a Two-Weapon Fighting build. The first attack might, at -1 per +2. That means you'll hit 5% less of the time for an extra 2 damage. But on the off-hand attack, you'll hit 5% less for only 1 extra damage. Right around the time you're doing 20 points of damage on average with an attack, Piranha Strike doesn't make sense for your off-hand. When that 5% penalty to hit pushes you below a 50% hit chance, you also should see a drop in damage. By the time you've got itiratives, Piranha Strike ceases to make mathematical sense. So you're taking a feat at 5th level that's really only good for about 3 levels. After that, you'll actually be costing yourself damage by using it, and that's just compared against normal attacks, not feint and then sneak attack.
Here's a quick rundown:
5th level
Main Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 8.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (2+8.5)*.95 = 9.975
Off-Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+2 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 5.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (1+5.5)*.95 = 6.175
Total for both: 16.15 average damage (Compare this to Off-Hand Sneak Attack)
Main-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+5+11.5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex + 3D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 19.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (2+19.5)*.95 = 20.425
Off-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+2+11.5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex + 3D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 16.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (1+16.5)*.95 = 16.625 (A single off-hand attack with sneak is more than both Piranha Strikes without sneak).
6th level
Main Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 8.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+8.5)*.90 = 9.975
Off-Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+2 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 5.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (2+5.5)*.90 = 6.75
Total for both: 16.725 average damage (Compare this to Off-Hand Sneak Attack)
Main-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+5+11.5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex + 3D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 19.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+19.5)*.90 = 21.15
Off-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+2+11.5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex + 3D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 16.5 avg damage (Piranha Strikes without sneak temporarily pass the single off-hand sneak attack).
With Piranha Strike: (2+16.5)*.90 = 16.65
7th level
Main Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 8.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+8.5)*.90 = 11.65
Off-Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+2 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 5.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (2+5.5)*.90 = 6.75
Total for both: 18.4 average damage (Compare to single Off-Hand sneak attack)
Main-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+5+15 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex + 4D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 23.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+23.5)*.90 = 24.75
Off-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+2+15 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 20 Dex + 4D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 20.5 avg damage (Single off-hand sneak attack deals more damage than two Piranha Strikes)
With Piranha Strike: (2+20.5)*.90 = 20.25 (Off-hand now actually does less damage with Piranha Strike than without).
8th level (Assume bump to 22 Dex. Iteratives left out to save space, but math is essentially the same)
Main Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+6 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 9.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+9.5)*.90 = 12.15
Off-Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+3 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 6.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (2+6.5)*.90 = 7.65
Total for both: 19.8 average damage (Compare to single Off-Hand sneak attack)
Main-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+6+15 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex + 4D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 24.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+24.5)*.90 = 26.05
Off-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+3+15 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex + 4D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 21.5 avg damage (Single off-hand sneak attack deals more damage than two Piranha Strikes)
With Piranha Strike: (2+21.5)*.90 = 21.15 (Off-hand does less damage with Piranha Strike than without).
When you factor in iteratives, assuming you normally always hit before Piranha Strike penalty, you get:
Full attack no sneak w/ Piranha Strike: 19.8+19.8 = 39.6
Full attack with feint no Piranha Strike: 21.15 + 16 = 37.15
9th level
Main Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+6 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 9.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+9.5)*.90 = 12.15
Off-Hand Avg Dmg: 3.5+3 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex)
Without Piranha Strike: 6.5 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (2+6.5)*.90 = 7.65
Total for both: 19.8 average damage (Compare to single Off-Hand sneak attack)
Main-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+6+18.5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex + 5D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 28 avg damage
With Piranha Strike: (4+28)*.90 = 28.8
Off-Hand Sneak Attack Avg Dmg: 3.5+3+18.5 (1d6 Shortsword + Agile Weapon 22 Dex + 5D6 Sneak Attack)
Without Piranha Strike: 25.5 avg damage (Single off-hand sneak attack deals more damage than two Piranha Strikes)
With Piranha Strike: (2+25.5)*.90 = 24.75 (Off-hand does less damage with Piranha Strike than without).
Total sneak w/Piranha Strike: 53.55 + 53.55 = 107.10
Total sneak w/o Piranha Strike: 53.5 + 53.5 = 107 (Normal Sneak Attack Round evens out.)
When you factor in iteratives, assuming you normally always hit before Piranha Strike penalty, you get:
Full attack no sneak w/ Piranha Strike: 19.8+19.8 = 39.6
Full attack with feint no Piranha Strike: 25.5 + 28+25.5 = 79
* Note to all of this, a higher static bonus or a high crit range weapon could shift things back to Piranha Strike's favor slightly, but it becomes a very small benefit for the cost of a feat regardless.
So you are correct that 9th level is where the Two-Weapon Feint build really takes off. The problem is, Piranha Strike becomes a useless feat at that level even when you are not Feinting. You get another bump to Piranha Strike at level 11, which might temporarily give Piranha Strike an advantage again, but essentially it's a wasted feat for half of the character's career, Two-Weapon Feint or no Two-Weapon Feint. THAT's why I don't like it on a Two-Weapon Fighting build. It helps you a very slight amount for 4 levels, and then it actually starts to hurt you.
Of course, with the new retraining rules, you could always retrain Piranha Strike once you hit 9th.
Or you could play a Human like I keep suggesting and take Two-Weapon Feint at 3rd and Piranha Strike at 5th (or vice versa) and get the best of both.
TLDR; Rogues don't do much damage no matter what feat you take at 5th level.
EDITED - To fix 8th level, where I'd grabbed the wrong damage number and included Piranha Strike where I shouldn't have. Piranha Strike becomes more useful for that level.
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You know, after thinking about this so much, I did change my mind. Improved Feint is more useful than either Two-Weapon Feint or Piranha Strike from third level on. You hit 10% more than with Two-Weapon Feint, and at least 15% more than with Piranha Strike, and often times 20-30% more.
Plus, after reading over Greater Feint again, I see no reason why it wouldn't stack with Two-Weapon Feint. It does not say "Whenever you use feint" as a move action. It says "Whenever you use feint." So Two-Weapon Feint lets you feint in place of your first attack. Greater Feint denies the target dex until your next turn. So your off-hand attack would get a sneak attack, as would all of your iteratives and any Ki Attacks/Haste Attacks or Attacks of Opportunity.
So my new recommendation would be:
Human Rogue
1) Combat Expertise
H) Two-Weapon Fighting
2) Finesse Rogue: Weapon Finesse
3) Improved Feint
4) Offensive Defense
5) Dodge/Skill Focus(Bluff)/Shadow Strike/Gang Up/Piranha Strike (if the math didn't convince you)
6) Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Shortsword)
7) Two-Weapon Feint
8) Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9) Greater Feint
That, I think, offers the best bonuses at all levels. Shift Skill Focus(Bluff) to 1st level for a Half-Elf and shift Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Feint to 3rd and 5th respectively.
I wish I'd figured this out earlier in my ninja's career.