Available now at Paizo.com.
Is there any kind of preview for the product anywhere?
The Exploration and Kingdom Building rules come from a popular AP (I don't think I can say which ... but *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*) but are expanded to include more more events, more buildings, alternate ruler titles. Additionally there are flow charts to make exploration and kingdom turns easier. So when you enter a hex, you know that you automatically find the landmark sites, then explore the hex, discover the standard sites, then make a roll to discover the hidden sites. There's a similar one for a kingdom turn. The flow charts make it easy to have a quick reference so you know what to do without missing steps.
Currently the only preview available is on RPGNow. I'm working to get on my own site, but its going to take a few days (since I'm running a pathfinder game tonight).
So the basic set of rules are the same, ie. not more complex, but you have added buildings, etc.?
Also, how many (non-cover) pages is this, please?
-- david
Papa.DRB
So the basic set of rules are the same, ie. not more complex, but you have added buildings, etc.?
*Bumps Nose* You got it sir.
Also, how many (non-cover) pages is this, please?
20 pages total. 1 page is the cover, 1 is OGL/Credits. Exploration Sheet is 1 page, City District sheet is 2 pages, Kingdom SHeet is 1 page. The remainder is pure content.
Chief Technical Officer
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The Exploration and Kingdom Building rules come from a popular AP (I don't think I can say which ...
The OGL is a little vague on that point. It's very clear that you can't advertise this as "Compatible with Kingmaker"... but it's also clear that if you take Open Game Content from, say, Pathfinder Adventure Path #31 and 32, you have to list them in your OGL Section 15 (which you did). The OGL is *not* clear on whether you can or cannot also mention that fact elsewhere.
My personal opinion is that the intent was probably "give credit where credit is due, as long as you're not using that credit to gain a marketing advantage." Certainly, Paizo wouldn't have any problem with you telling people as a matter of fact that you're building on the rules we published in Kingmaker, so long as you don't cross that line into "ideal for use with Kingmaker!"
I posted a review :D
I posted a review :D
Thank you for taking the time to review. I really hope you find it useful in your game.
You mention, on page 9, "Book of the River Nations: Mass Combat" but I don't see it for sale here?
-- david
Papa.DRB
You mention, on page 9, "Book of the River Nations: Mass Combat" but I don't see it for sale here?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Still working on that one. At the rate I'm going, it should be up in 2-ish weeks. Once its finished, it'll be here.
*cool* Count on at least 1 sale....
-- david
Papa.DRB
I posted a review :D
I've just posted my review over on RPGNow.
Gentlemen. Thank you for your reviews. I am really glad you enjoyed the product.
You both mentioned a few minor errors. I just finished revising the Book of the River Nations and made sure to incorporate the errors that you both mentioned. The new version should be available from Paizo in the early part of the week.
Thank you for taking the time to review it; I really do appreciate it.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I just finished revising the Book of the River Nations and made sure to incorporate the errors that you both mentioned. The new version should be available from Paizo in the early part of the week.
Updates to existing products actually become available as soon as you upload them... but the e-mail informing current purchasers about the update won't go out until Monday.
Updates to existing products actually become available as soon as you upload them... but the e-mail informing current purchasers about the update won't go out until Monday.
Thanks Vic.
In that case, everyone, there's a new version up and ready for you to download.
Alright,
There are two reviews for the first Book of the River Nations that are 2 star reviews. Their reasons are "Not much new content" and "Could have greatly benefitted from new material," respectively. So allow me to give me my perspective and the goal of this product.
As a Pathfinder Compatible publisher, I cannot state that any new material is for use with Kingmaker. The license specifically states, "The list of products you may reference is set out in Exhibit B, which Paizo may update at any time. You may not reference any Paizo products that are not listed in Exhibit B without express written permission." (emphasis mine). That list does not include the Kingmaker AP. I wanted to support the Kingmaker rules (and infact have new material already written) but I have no way of letting people know that they are for use with Kingmaker.
So I made the decision reprint the Kingmaker rules. I need a place to start from and the rules were release as open content. I ran them past Paizo first to make sure they were ok with it and they gave me a green light.
As a result, the new material I will be releasing I can say they are for use with the Book of the River Nations rules. Its not a perfect situation, but it is as close as I can get.
The other reason I made this was for PLAYERS. Players typically do not buy adventure paths. As such, players, the very people who will be using these rules do not have them. For my own home Kingmaker game, I am copying and pasting these very rules from the PDF for them to use. I realized that I was not the only GM doing this very thing. And then there are plenty of GMs that don't subscribe to the subscription and just have the book itself. They have to type these rules in by hand or have to xerox their books. I don't know about anyone else, but the thought of doing that to my APs do not appeal to me.
So while I understand that these two reviewers were disappointed that it contained little new material, I can only say that new material is coming, but I first must establish a common ground for all to work from. And that means reprinting the rules. If you were disappointed with the Exploration and Kingdom Building rules, I highly recommend taking a pass at the Mass Combat rules being released tomorrow. While it is clarified and cleaned up, the rules are largely the same. You will be equally disappointed with those as well.
Having said that, I am sure the all new material (coming out early next year) will delight all. We are really excited about it and know that it will enhance the rules considerably.
Eventually I plan to buy this and when I do, I will review it.
I appreciate that DM. Your reviews are always exceptional.
Flattery will get you everywhere and nearly everything with me.
Did I mention how wonderful your wings look? ;)
Everything but a good review anyways, unless the product is deserving. :)
Fair enough.
Any update on the ETA for "Book of the River Nations: Mass Combat"?
Tomorrow!
Shining Fool, thank you for taking the time to write your review. I really appreciate it.
Available now at Paizo.com.
Interested enough that the 3$ price tag is worth the looksee. if i like it i'll probably snag the followup. Also, DM is there anything you don't buy? good lord woman!
Alright,
There are two reviews for the first Book of the River Nations that are 2 star reviews. Their reasons are "Not much new content" and "Could have greatly benefitted from new material," respectively. So allow me to give me my perspective and the goal of this product.
As a Pathfinder Compatible publisher, I cannot state that any new material is for use with Kingmaker. The license specifically states, "The list of products you may reference is set out in Exhibit B, which Paizo may update at any time. You may not reference any Paizo products that are not listed in Exhibit B without express written permission." (emphasis mine). That list does not include the Kingmaker AP. I wanted to support the Kingmaker rules (and infact have new material already written) but I have no way of letting people know that they are for use with Kingmaker.
So I made the decision reprint the Kingmaker rules. I need a place to start from and the rules were release as open content. I ran them past Paizo first to make sure they were ok with it and they gave me a green light.
As a result, the new material I will be releasing I can say they are for use with the Book of the River Nations rules. Its not a perfect situation, but it is as close as I can get.
The other reason I made this was for PLAYERS. Players typically do not buy adventure paths. As such, players, the very people who will be using these rules do not have them. For my own home Kingmaker game, I am copying and pasting these very rules from the PDF for them to use. I realized that I was not the only GM doing this very thing. And then there are plenty of GMs that don't subscribe to the subscription and just have the book itself. They have to type these rules in by hand or have to xerox their books. I don't know about anyone else, but the thought of doing that to my APs do not appeal to me.
So while I understand that these two reviewers were disappointed that it contained little new material, I can only say that new material is coming, but I...
In advance I just want to say that I am not out to get you or tear you down Mr. McCoy, so if I sound heated please please please don't take it personally. While your explaination is elucidating on why you did what you did, none of that made it to the product description. It is never stated that it is a guide for players, nor is it stated that this is the base from which a whole set of add-ons will spring. I'm not reviewing your product based on your intentions with it, I'm reviewing based on what was promised and what was delivered. The product description promises expanded rules, new buildings, and new encounters and in all of these areas I found them to be lacking. The new buildings seemed like copies of each other with a minor difference each and the new encounter table is inferior to the free one offered on the Kingmaker messageboard, hence the 2 star review. I get your whole "common ground" line of thought, but I find it very weak. Why not hold back this product until the new stuff is ready and then release them together? And while you can't say "Kingmaker" you could have said "This is a reprint of rules contained in AP #31-32" if Mr. Wertz earlier post is correct.
Hey Robert,
First off, I do want to say, thank you for taking the time to review and to respond to my post. I know I sounded defensive in the previous post. I should have taken the time to phrase a number of things differently. But ... I oopsed. So, for that, I am sorry.
While your explaination is elucidating on why you did what you did, none of that made it to the product description. It is never stated that it is a guide for players, nor is it stated that this is the base from which a whole set of add-ons will spring.
Totally fair. And you are right. I did a poor job of explaining it in the product description. I hope I did did a better job with the mass combat supplement.
I'm not reviewing your product based on your intentions with it, I'm reviewing based on what was promised and what was delivered. The product description promises expanded rules, new buildings, and new encounters and in all of these areas I found them to be lacking. The new buildings seemed like copies of each other with a minor difference each and the new encounter table is inferior to the free one offered on the Kingmaker messageboard, hence the 2 star review.
Also totally fair. You reviewed it in a manner you saw fit.
As far as the table on the message boards goes, I was not able to copy any material from the boards. I did, however, place an open call in that exact thread for submissions of the events table. 1 person responded and as such only the one person's events made it into the book. I wrote others myself that I found some to be similar to those on the thread and deleted them because I did not want anyone saying that I copied their idea without giving credit.
I get your whole "common ground" line of thought, but I find it very weak. Why not hold back this product until the new stuff is ready and then release them together?
That was a business decision to establish a common ground first and then to release additional expanded material, one that I still feel is a good idea. Short of the long: revenue generated from 1 product fuels the production of another. I understand if you do not find that explanation to your liking, but that is business.
And while you can't say "Kingmaker" you could have said "This is a reprint of rules contained in AP #31-32" if Mr. Wertz earlier post is correct.
At the point in time this was published, I did not have a written ok from Paizo. Mind you, I did not ask either. The Mass Combat supplement's product description reflects the above mentioned ok.
Reviewed, here and at ENworld.
DM, Thank you for doing so. I appreciate it.
I don't think I have the credentials to mount an official review, but I wanted to say this:
As a player, I think this product is worth the price. The only drawback is that we don't have images of the new buildings. As the record keeper for our group, I have been printing/cutting/pasting the little buildings from the official players guide onto our district maps.
But I will definatly look at new products from J.B. Enterprises in the future, based on the usefulness of this one.
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I don't think I have the credentials to mount an official review, but I wanted to say this:
As a player, I think this product is worth the price. The only drawback is that we don't have images of the new buildings. As the record keeper for our group, I have been printing/cutting/pasting the little buildings from the official players guide onto our district maps.
But I will definatly look at new products from J.B. Enterprises in the future, based on the usefulness of this one.
I have no credentials. I just started doing reviews about a year ago and people apparently liked them. Which in my mind just proves people are crazy. So do your review and then another and another etc. Thats how it works.
IMO, the only credentials you need to do a review is to answer "yes" to these two question: A) did you buy it? and B) did you read it? If you did both of those, you are perfectly qualified to do a review.
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I have no credentials. I just started doing reviews about a year ago and people apparently liked them. Which in my mind just proves people are crazy. So do your review and then another and another etc. Thats how it works.
I think it is due to how in-depth most of your reviews tend to be. While most of us, given a book of feats, would simply review the book as a whole, you tend to give your impressions of at least most of the feats therein.
I must admit, I emulated your reviewing style for my review of Swords & Wizardry: Complete Rulebook.
And I'd like to thank you for noticing I'm crazy. :D
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I have no credentials. I just started doing reviews about a year ago and people apparently liked them. Which in my mind just proves people are crazy. So do your review and then another and another etc. Thats how it works.I think it is due to how in-depth most of your reviews tend to be. While most of us, given a book of feats, would simply review the book as a whole, you tend to give your impressions of at least most of the feats therein.
I must admit, I emulated your reviewing style for my review of Swords & Wizardry: Complete Rulebook.
And I'd like to thank you for noticing I'm crazy. :D
Yeah depends on the size, some of the bigger books I can't give a impression on everything I would like or it would end up several pages long. :)
And there was no real noticing your crazy, you like my reviews and voted for my SGG book and then wanted a preorder. So yeah that like saying, hey glad you noticed the barn pink flying elephant, just not something your likely to not notice.
As far as the table on the message boards goes, I was not able to copy any material from the boards. I did, however, place an open call in that exact thread for submissions of the events table. 1 person responded and as such only the one person's events made it into the book. I wrote others myself that I found some to be similar to those on the thread and deleted them because I did not want anyone saying that I copied their idea without giving credit.
If you do an update, feel free to use stuff from my posts, either under my actual name (Rob Vermeulen) or my Alias (Berhagen)
Animal crime lord ? really ?
this was the only Jaw dropper that I found (so far). if I throw that at my players they will string me up from the nearest telephone pole.
ACL aside, I like having this info in a stand alone product. I also like most of the additions (though like some above I would have hoped for some more).
Book of the River Nations: Exploration and Kingdom Building Rules have spent several weeks on Paizo's non-Paizo Top 10 downloads. Check it out and check out the Mass Combat Rules, a selection of Feats, Spells and Archetypes/Prestige Classes that would be helpful with these rules, or Pre-Order the Print version and get the PDF for FREE.
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In the Kingdom Rules it lists a Market as only needing 1 city block (by default as it doesn't say), but has the prerequisite of needing to be built adjacent to at least two houses.
However the token for the Market in the Pathfinder rules has it as a two Block space.
Which is correct?
I could be just missing something.
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I have and use this product every KM session, it puts in one location the rules from the first two modules. Is it absolutely necessary - Not if you have the modules. HOWEVER, it is exceptionally convenient to have the rules all in one spot.
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AFAIK, that's a deliberate decision made by Dale, since what's written in KM #2 for the warden fits historically better to the marshall and vice versa.
Ruyan.
Short of the long, these two products have different design goals. The individual PDFs (Exploration and Kingdom Building, Mass Combat, and Feats and Secret Societies) had the goal of getting the rules into players' hands with few a few expansions and no modifications. The Complete Players' Reference, however, corrected a number of things that I felt could be improved. Among them was the Marshal and the Warden. The original rules reversed their historical roles. So I corrected that.
I specifically didn't go back and revise the original PDFs for those that wanted the original rules. This way, you have the option of playing by the way presented in the AP or with some alterations. Your choice.
Edit: Ninja'ed by RuyanVe.
For Black Friday, this PDF will be on sale for $0.99. Be sure to grab it this weekend for this low, LOW price.