Role Call for Mac OS X Client

My gf will play on a mac, but that is perhaps a bit in the future when seen me play a bit and it is not a FPS ...

Her ex is a counterstriker ....

I'll be a Mac only player as will my buddy

If I had not thought it would be EE+ 6 month for Mac client, I would have upgraded my H/W. Instead I now have a Windows 8.0 which I am not sure how it works or how I get my Symanteck installed/activated.\\I am almost a Luddite as far as Windows is considered, but I am now a naive Windows user.

Lam, maybe throw Symantek into the trash and just use Windows Defender? Avast is probably better, but it sounds like simpler is better for you.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/products/features/windows-defen der

I only have access to Windows on a work computer, so will be Mac-only.

MAC for me.

I currently run Windows off a MacPro(early 2008, with post upgrades), and bounce back and forth between both OS on a fairly regular bases.

I would not say no to a Mac OSX client.

Still waiting for the Mac client so my buddy and I can play.

Not gonna lie, the lack of Mac client is starting to bug me...

In the Alpha forums, Ryan recently said they've had encouraging progress with the Mac build.

In the Alpha forums, Ryan recently said they've had encouraging progress with the Mac build.

Well, since Mac-only users are obviously excluded from the alpha, that's a strange place to break the deafening silence about the Mac client status. Good to hear they're still working on it, I suppose.

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:

In the Alpha forums, Ryan recently said they've had encouraging progress with the Mac build.

Well, since Mac-only users are obviously excluded from the alpha, that's a strange place to break the deafening silence about the Mac client status. Good to hear they're still working on it, I suppose.

Good point.

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:

In the Alpha forums, Ryan recently said they've had encouraging progress with the Mac build.

Well, since Mac-only users are obviously excluded from the alpha, that's a strange place to break the deafening silence about the Mac client status. Good to hear they're still working on it, I suppose.

Someone started a thread there asking how it was going, Ryan answered. Pretty straightforward...

But if we don't have access to those forums it would be tricky for us Mac Users to get over there, now wouldn't it?

I would like very much to be able to play the alpha version of the game, which I signed up for and was told I would have access to, on the OS I paid to have supported.

I'm willing to be patient, but not so patient that I don't hold my own time and money as valuable.

I didn't imply your time or money was not valuable. Someone could have just as well asked the same question on these forums and likely would have received that answer. No one did. I provided information that I hoped people here would find encouraging.

As I am sure most people commenting in this thread know, the Paizo backers of PFO are long-standing Mac users, Ryan himself is a Mac user, and GW is committed to bringing a Mac client in long before I had thought it would be possible. When they have something further to report, they will.

Edit: took out the snarkiness.

I didn't imply your time or money was not valuable. Someone could have just as well asked the same question on these forums and likely would have received that answer. No one did. I provided information that I hoped people here would find encouraging.

As I am sure most people commenting in this thread know, the Paizo backers of PFO are long-standing Mac users, Ryan himself is a Mac user, and GW is committed to bringing a Mac client in long before I had thought it would be possible. When they have something further to report, they will.

Edit: took out the snarkiness.

I think if you check back, the question of when we'll get the Mac client has been asked (more than once) and the answer has been "we don't know, but hopefully before the Alpha ends."

While that's a legitimate answer, it doesn't do much to alleviate the frustration that those of us waiting on the Mac client who signed up for Alpha access are feeling. We signed up in good faith. We were not then, and have not yet, been given what we signed up for. And while some of us have Boot Camp, the answer of "just use that until the Mac client is available" is not a reasonable one for many.

Part of the issue here is that GW apparently didn't choose one of the many game engines that supports full Win/Mac parity out of the gate, and they're having to massage it to make it go. Why? I don't know. Money, probably. They also appear to not be using a one-library, two-client system (such as is done over in Blizzard-land), which would make things a lot easier (you write your asset library once and then make two different applications that can read that library with the same results). Don't quote me on that, I have no proof. Maybe they are.

There is a lot of frustration around this issue, because despite all of the (very frequent! Thank you!) updates about the game, the information about the Mac client is thin on the ground. Almost nonexistent. And that's just not okay. The release of the alpha only on Windows was seen as a slap in the face by many - we signed up for alpha access, why wasn't it made available for all of the backers at once? Why, if we were promised a two-OS client, did we not get one? Etcetera, etcetera.

I honestly don't know what snarkiness you took out of your post, but if anyone deserves to be (rightfully) snarky, it's the people wanting to know what's up with the Mac client.

You're free to disagree with me, and if you do that's okay. Just understand that I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who made a good part of his career out of customer advocacy. Taking a look at what customers were told they'd get, comparing it to what they actually got, and making a case for why that's not okay is something I've done for a long time. I know Paizo has people doing that. I don't think that the guys at Paizo or GW are unaware of these issues. I believe they're very aware of them - the problem lies in the fact that the Mac users have to ask for updates.

Those updates should be given proactively, to show the Mac user base that they are not being sidelined nor marginalized. That's the real issue, here - a lack of information and a feeling of powerlessness.

Both of which could be easily removed by putting notes in the Kickstarter updates of the status of the Mac client. It really is just that simple.

I honestly don't know what snarkiness you took out of your post, but if anyone deserves to be (rightfully) snarky, it's the people wanting to know what's up with the Mac client

I did see it last night, and it wasn't all that snarky. I'm sure it arises from a feeling of being shot at as the messenger. There's no evidence that the devs have looked at this most recent part of the thread, yet, so any rancour can be interpreted as aimed at someone who simply tried to help by bringing to this thread a message he noticed on the other board.

The message in the alpha forums had no new info about when it will come, only that it continues to look good for a mac client arriving soon. It was not an official update or breaking of the silence, it was just a "cool, the client is getting getting better, I'm hopeful." message from Ryan who is looking forward to using it.

Being rightfully upset does not mean that one should be snarky to anyone. The devs are under some pretty extraordinary pressure at the moment, so venting because Ryan made a post in the other forums that it looks good for the mac client is probably not productive.

I did see it last night, and it wasn't all that snarky. I'm sure it arises from a feeling of being shot at as the messenger.

I don't think my pointing out that the Mac users have no access to the Alpha forums and thus have no voice in the development and feedback process of the game thus far is shooting Kabal as the messenger. It's a statement of fact - folks waiting for the Mac client are not being given the access to the game they were promised. They are not being actively communicated with, nor are they being actively sought after for feedback on the game.

They literally cannot do what they signed on to do.

This is an issue. It can be solved by the devs, or Ryan, or anyone, putting notations into the Kickstarter updates about the status of the Mac client.

One sentence on the state of the Mac client takes as much time to type as it took me to type this sentence. It costs NOTHING.

There's no evidence that the devs have looked at this most recent part of the thread,

And herein lies the issue that I am seeking to address in my posts.

For what it's worth, Kabal, I was not shooting you as the messenger. If I came off that way, I apologize.

Here is my point:

Stating the progress of the Mac client on another forum the Mac users aren't accessing is counter productive and provides no useful data for those people waiting for the update.

It is far more effective to put those updates into the rather frequent Kickstarter progress reports.

Putting a single sentence that reads "And hey, we're seeing good progress on the Mac Alpha! We hope it will be done soon and you can get in on the fun!" is free. It takes twenty seconds. Ten if you type as fast as I do.

And just like that, you've solved the largest issue the Mac players have and will continue to have: The feeling of being completely ignored.

It isn't enough to tell someone "I use the thing you use, and I understand your frustration." You have to actively demonstrate empathy for empathy to be recognized.

One sentence at the top of a Kickstarter update would do more for the entirety of the Mac user base than a post in a forum they don't have access to will ever do.

Being rightfully upset does not mean that one should be snarky to anyone. The devs are under some pretty extraordinary pressure at the moment, so venting because Ryan made a post in the other forums that it looks good for the mac client is probably not productive.

You're right, and you have a point. I have already recognized that the devs have their own issues, and their own stresses. No one's arguing that.

What I am saying and what I will continue to say is very clear: It costs nothing and takes seconds to put an update on the Mac client into the Kickstarter updates.

This is the core of customer advocacy. The customers were promised something they have not been given. In fact, not only have they not been given what they were promised, they have been given almost nothing. This is not acceptable and needs to be addressed.

I think what I was trying to get across is that it wasn't a "statement." Ryan got excited about some testing of the mac client and screen-capped it then posted. They almost certainly should do a better job of updating people, but this particular post was not, in any way, an "update."

I don't think any of us blame people for being frustrated on a number of fronts. I'm only concerned that we keep treating each other well and don't waste our frustrations an snapping at each other (any more than is unavoidable in human interaction).

I've said before that I don't think Ryan does a great job of communicating. He's human, and doesn't have the chameleon suit of someone who's done customer service for a living for several years and who will smile as you kick them in the nuts and then shred you privately later among their friends. (My sister-in-law refers to it as her "waitress-face" that covers her desire to fling the soup in your face,)

I think PFO's success, since it's missing a lot of the things many gamers are looking for, will be built on a strong community that goes hard after each other in game and co-operates outside the world. We all want (mostly) the same thing in the end.

I think what I was trying to get across is that it wasn't a "statement." Ryan got excited about some testing of the mac client and screen-capped it then posted. They almost certainly should do a better job of updating people, but this particular post was not, in any way, an "update."

I don't think any of us blame people for being frustrated on a number of fronts. I'm only concerned that we keep treating each other well and don't waste our frustrations an snapping at each other (any more than is unavoidable in human interaction).

I've said before that I don't think Ryan does a great job of communicating. He's human, and doesn't have the chameleon suit of someone who's done customer service for a living for several years and who will smile as you kick them in the nuts and then shred you privately later among their friends. (My sister-in-law refers to it as her "waitress-face" that covers her desire to fling the soup in your face,)

I think PFO's success, since it's missing a lot of the things many gamers are looking for, will be built on a strong community that goes hard after each other in game and co-operates outside the world. We all want (mostly) the same thing in the end.

I agree with you on all fronts. I think we're saying the same things, but with a different focus on the words we use. Customer advocacy is a big thing for me - when I managed a customer support floor, I always drove home the fact that ultimately it is the customer that pays the wages of the worker, not the BOD, not the investors, not the bank. The customer.

I have perhaps been a bit too obtuse and thick in the words I've been using, and for that I apologize. I do believe the community will be PFO's strongest asset. I'd just like to see the rest of the community over in the Alpha start wondering where the Mac users are, and pushing for faster results. I don't think the rest of the community is actively ignoring the Mac user base, I just don't think they're *considering* it at all. They're having fun and not thinking about those of us who not only aren't, but currently can't. A house divided against itself and all that - even if the house is only divided by ignorance of a situation and not an active division, you know?

I understand the concerns your voicing, even if I don't share them. My guild (Kabal) has some Mac users who are awaiting the client with varying degrees of patience rather then dip their feet in by Bootcamping. I feel a bit proprietary about this thread, because I started it with a very specific goal: to encourage Goblinworks by showing them the Mac users who are excited about the client, and ready to step up when a build is ready for external testing. I'd like to keep this thread a positive one and keep the devs motivated when the inevitable problems crop up with the client.

Most of the discussion of the Mac client has occurred buried in other various threads, such as the System Requirements thread. You mention the community not considering the Mac user base - I think you're right, and its a problem we've contributed to by not leading conversations. I think the best way out is for that user base to actually start threads of what is on their mind. Restricting conversation to only this thread, or one off comments in threads dedicated to other issues does not help anyone know that a Mac user base wants to exist. Make your opinions known, ask questions - start threads.

I can't wait for the mac client! It's been a long time since backing the kickstarter... really looking forward to playing.

I suspect that the debs are not looking at this forum very much. I suspect that their focus is on the product and some nasty bugs.

There is a lot of frustration around this issue, because despite all of the (very frequent! Thank you!) updates about the game, the information about the Mac client is thin on the ground. Almost nonexistent. And that's just not okay. The release of the alpha only on Windows was...

I hope the latest blog addressed your concerns and request for information. :)

jemstone wrote:

There is a lot of frustration around this issue, because despite all of the (very frequent! Thank you!) updates about the game, the information about the Mac client is thin on the ground. Almost nonexistent. And that's just not okay. The release of the alpha only on Windows was...

I hope the latest blog addressed your concerns and request for information. :)

It did, actually. I'm pretty happy about it.

Although, this:

The client will likely not have the same level of graphic performance at the highest graphic settings levels as the Windows client due to a lot of factors related to the differences in architecture between Windows and OSX but it will still be a very good experience.

Leads me to believe that the people doing the work on the graphics aren't using the full power of OSX's graphics architecture, considering it's actually scales above Windows when used properly (not hard to do). Either that or they're (imho foolishly, but again, just imho) using DirectX-to-OGL conversions rather than running everything in OGL*, but that's a large amount of fiddly behind-the-scenes questioning I'm not privy to. Hopefully this graphics disparity is only a pre-launch issue - there's no reason to have a graphics hit on a client once actual launch hits (and indeed, it will lead to poor sales overall).

But anyway, yeah, I'm pleased to see it in the blog, finally. I'm glad to see that my fears about Mr. Dancey's response in another thread didn't actually mean that there would be nothing at all in upcoming communications. Thank you, GW!

Count me in when a Mac client's available, I'd much rather use my Mac Pro than the dell tablet I'm using atm

We use Unity, and Unity's strengths and weaknesses are our strengths and weaknesses.

In the middle of the Unity graphic system is a step where a lot of math is performed to transform all the various layers in the meshes that make up a character into a single mesh so that we can render a frame of a scene in a reasonable amount of time.

The system which does this on Windows is better than the system which does this on Mac. We have to spend substantial engineering time for incremental progress on that step. That is a constrained resource, so we want to spend as little the on it as we reasonably so those resources can be deployed on fixing other problems and iterating on features which affect very user not just the Mac users.

The Mac client is running very well and I think there won't be many complaints about the quality of the graphics from any Mac user. I'm optimistic that we will have it in testers hands soon, but I don't make that call, I wait until the team tells me they are ready. As soon as they are ready, we will get a test set up and running.

I have four players in this house that can play once it's ready for Mac.

We use Unity, and Unity's strengths and weaknesses are our strengths and weaknesses.

In the middle of the Unity graphic system is a step where a lot of math is performed to transform all the various layers in the meshes that make up a character into a single mesh so that we can render a frame of a scene in a reasonable amount of time.

The system which does this on Windows is better than the system which does this on Mac. We have to spend substantial engineering time for incremental progress on that step. That is a constrained resource, so we want to spend as little the on it as we reasonably so those resources can be deployed on fixing other problems and iterating on features which affect very user not just the Mac users.

The Mac client is running very well and I think there won't be many complaints about the quality of the graphics from any Mac user. I'm optimistic that we will have it in testers hands soon, but I don't make that call, I wait until the team tells me they are ready. As soon as they are ready, we will get a test set up and running.

That's actually a lot more information than I was expecting to get in response to my concern (I have to assume that's a response to my concern, anyway, given the nature of the reply). I was unaware that Unity was being used. I'm not sure how I missed that, given the attention I've been paying - but clearly I did, and a lot more things make sense now. I thought that mesh/render disparity had been fixed, but you would know better than I.

Thank you very much for all the updates, Mr. Dancey. They're greatly appreciated.

Please let us know how many Famicom's and Master System's we need to sacrifice to get on the Mac-release-test-candidate list, and I'll make it happen. :)

<happy dance ensues>

Mac users get thee to the River Kingdoms!!!

We have a client to test! Ryan announces Mac client here!

See you on the inside :D

Were I at home on my DSL, I'd be downloading that bad boy like there was no tomorrow.

WHY MUST I BE FORCED TO WAIT?!

Downloaded and played on the Mac, seemed to work well ... killed some goblins, got killed by some goblins.