I have an arcane duelist bard with a +3 mithril breastplate. Next level I will be able to wear medium armor without penalty, but for now, I am not proficient in medium armor. I know that until I am proficient with medium armor, I will take a minus to hit and Dex related skills.
Mithril armors "are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."
Since bards can use light armor, and this breast plate is considered light, does "other limitations" mean that I can cast in this armor without penalty?
Prawn
I believe so, yes. 'for other limitations' applies to Arcane Spell Failure. It's only the proficiency that's required to be Medium Armor. You can even sleep in it.
Three Armors are worth getting in the game outside of specific magical armors: Mithril Breastplate (virtually everyone), Mithril Fullplate (very select few who can only wear medium armor to maintain class features, but want that extra +2AC), and Adamantine Fullplate (All heavy armor wearers, especially Dwarves).
The costs are fairly prohibitive on those armors for a few levels, but the advantages mean never having to say 'I wish I'd waited for Mithril Breastplate' or 'I could be more protected.'
Thanks purplefixer. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Does anyone know if there is an official ruling on this? I know they will ask at my game.
The Mithril Breast plate is considered light, but only for terms in encumbrance and how it affects your base movement rate. For all other purposes, it is still medium armor.I have an arcane duelist bard with a +3 mithril breastplate. Next level I will be able to wear medium armor without penalty, but for now, I am not proficient in medium armor. I know that until I am proficient with medium armor, I will take a minus to hit and Dex related skills.
Mithril armors "are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."Since bards can use light armor, and this breast plate is considered light, does "other limitations" mean that I can cast in this armor without penalty?
Prawn
This isn't correct. It is considered light armor for all purposes except proficiency.
What other purposes are left besides what I quoted?
The purpose that was asked about is whether an arcane caster, such as a bard, who could cast in light armor without arcane spell failure chance, could cast in mithril breast plate.
What other purposes are left besides what I quoted?
arcane spell failure and proficiency
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
"And other limitations" is vague, but I would say that WITH YOUR GM'S PERMISSION, a bard could count mithral breastplate as light for the purpose of spellcasting, if you consider that "other limitations."
THAT SAID, honestly? I would wait until 10th level when you get medium armor proficiency. While a mithral breastplate's ACP is only -1, you really don't want to be applying that -1 penalty to every single attack roll and movement-based skill check until you hit the next level. Just my 2 cents; if you think it's worth it, the rest is up to your GM.
Geez I don't know what else you would call that but a limitation...
Geez I don't know what else you would call that but a limitation...
Yes, I believe we are in agreement, if I follow the thread correctly.
I still think he should run it by his GM.
It is a Light armor with or without proficiency. Bards can cast Arcane spells in it without failure.
He can have a GM that can't read and understand, true, but RAW leaves no doubt in my mind.
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I have an arcane duelist bard with a +3 mithril breastplate. Next level I will be able to wear medium armor without penalty, but for now, I am not proficient in medium armor. I know that until I am proficient with medium armor, I will take a minus to hit and Dex related skills.
Mithril armors "are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."Since bards can use light armor, and this breast plate is considered light, does "other limitations" mean that I can cast in this armor without penalty?
Prawn
Proficiency related limitations are the penalties at Strength and Dexterity related ability and skill checks.
Limitations that aren't related with Proficiency are Armor Check penalty, Arcane Spell Failure, Speed and Weight.
Mithral Armor considers all non-proficiency related to be one category lower (minimum Light Armor) plus the benefits from reduced weight, armor check penalty and spell failure.
So technically a Bard would be able to ignore spell failure from a Mithral Breastplate. In your case being an Arcane Duelist applies the same and when you get the ability to wear and cast without penalty in medium armors at your next level you can even upgrade your armor to Mithral Full Plate with the same limitations mentioned above.
The only Mithral Armor that applies the Light category at all limitations including armor proficiency is Elven Chain, even Celestial Chain that should be considered quite lighter than an Elven Chain due to the improved Maximum Dexterity Bonus and 5% lower Arcane Spell Failure than an Elven Chain is still considered Medium for Proficiency.
Elves Rock...
Considering that Elven Chainmail being lighter and more flexible than the Mithral Breastplate would be subject to this restriction, I'd say that's enough justification for saying no. You don't get ACF immunity from it until the class gives you the proficiency and immunity from medium armor failure.I have an arcane duelist bard with a +3 mithril breastplate. Next level I will be able to wear medium armor without penalty, but for now, I am not proficient in medium armor. I know that until I am proficient with medium armor, I will take a minus to hit and Dex related skills.
Mithril armors "are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."Since bards can use light armor, and this breast plate is considered light, does "other limitations" mean that I can cast in this armor without penalty?
Prawn
Proficiency related limitations are the penalties at Strength and Dexterity related ability and skill checks.
Limitations that aren't related with Proficiency are Armor Check penalty, Arcane Spell Failure, Speed and Weight.
Mithral Armor considers all non-proficiency related to be one category lower (minimum Light Armor) plus the benefits from reduced weight, armor check penalty and spell failure.
So technically a Bard would be able to ignore spell failure from a Mithral Breastplate. In your case being an Arcane Duelist applies the same and when you get the ability to wear and cast without penalty in medium armors at your next level you can even upgrade your armor to Mithral Full Plate with the same limitations mentioned above.
The only Mithral Armor that applies the Light category at all limitations including armor proficiency is Elven Chain, even Celestial Chain that should be considered quite lighter than an Elven Chain due to the improved Maximum Dexterity Bonus and 5% lower Arcane Spell Failure than an Elven Chain is still considered Medium for Proficiency.
Elves Rock...
Elven Chain is the one item that specifically changes proficiencies - it's actually light armor, where ordinary mithral chainmail is still medium. "This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency."
Proficiency related limitations are the penalties at Strength and Dexterity related ability and skill checks.Limitations that aren't related with Proficiency are Armor Check penalty, Arcane Spell Failure, Speed and Weight.
This is incorrect -- armor check penalty is specifically tied to proficiency -- without proficiency you take the ACP on attack rolls as well as the normal stuff.
Hence ACP is directly related to proficiency.
Not that it really matters in this case, but just to be clear, where the limitation comes from doesn't matter just that it is there. Proficiency is the sole exception that is specifically called out.
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Proficiency related limitations are the penalties at Strength and Dexterity related ability and skill checks.Limitations that aren't related with Proficiency are Armor Check penalty, Arcane Spell Failure, Speed and Weight.
This is incorrect -- armor check penalty is specifically tied to proficiency -- without proficiency you take the ACP on attack rolls as well as the normal stuff.
Hence ACP is directly related to proficiency.
Not that it really matters in this case, but just to be clear, where the limitation comes from doesn't matter just that it is there. Proficiency is the sole exception that is specifically called out.
True, I totally forgot the penalty on attack rolls.
First of all i think that a bard (any kind of bard) doesn't take arcane spell failure when in mithril breastplate.
While a mithral breastplate's ACP is only -1, you really don't want to be applying that -1 penalty to every single attack roll and movement-based skill check until you hit the next level.
Mithril breastplate's ACP is 0, not -1, don't forget that they are also of masterwork quality. This lowers the ACP by another 1.
First of all i think that a bard (any kind of bard) doesn't take arcane spell failure when in mithril breastplate.
Mithril breastplate's ACP is 0, not -1, don't forget that they are also of masterwork quality. This lowers the ACP by another 1.
While a mithral breastplate's ACP is only -1, you really don't want to be applying that -1 penalty to every single attack roll and movement-based skill check until you hit the next level.
That is already included. The fact that it is made of mithral is what makes it masterwork.
Example:
Elven ChainAura no aura (nonmagical); CL —
Slot armor; Price 5,150 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.
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Regular Chainmail max dex +2, ACP -5----------------------
Mithral Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3
Notice that when you add the mithral stats to the chainmail stats you get the Elven Chainmail stats.
@wraithstrike
Although i see your point, but since this is a specific armor i don't want to to use it as an example since this isn't exactly a typical mithril chain (it costs more and it is considered light for proficencies also), also i don't think that specific items are very good examples because of the fact that a lot of them are carried over from earlier editions and the typos are a lot easier than when writing the general rule.
In addition mithril weapons don't say that they have a +1 echancement bonus to attack rolls, does that mean that they don't have it?
Notice that when you add the mithral stats to the chainmail stats you get the Elven Chainmail stats.
Now quite. Elven chain costs 1000 more than mithral chainmail, but is considered light armour in all regards (including proficiency).
@wraithstrike
Although i see your point, but since this is a specific armor i don't want to to use it as an example since this isn't exactly a typical mithril chain (it costs more and it is considered light also for proficencies also), also i don't think that specific items are very good examples because of the fact that a lot of them are carried over from earlier editions and the typos are a lot easier than when writing the general rule.
In addition mithril weapons don't say that they have a +1 echancement bonus to attack rolls, does that mean that they don't have it?
No it does not. The mithril armor overules what you get from the normal armor. If it is not overuled then you get what is in the regular section, which in the weapon's case is +1 to hit. I doubt it is a coincidence that the stats line up, and if this Elven armor is special then why is it worse than your ruling of how it works? Why would I pay more for armor that does less?
The Elven Chainmail cost more because you only need light armor proficiency to use it, and it reduces the chance for arcane spell failure. Other than that it follows the rules as listed.
The Mithral Full Plate of Speed also follows my math
Full Plate max dex +1 ACP-6
Mithral Full Plate of Speed max dex +3 ACP-3
edit:added "more" in place of "for"
@wraithstrike
I see your point and you might be right.
Anyway i will consider making it a house rule about that but until then (or until we get an official ruling telling us otherwise) it is good to know the RAW.
Thanks.