Pathfinder Secrets of Magic

Does anyone know if there is a Winter Witch archetype?

Does anyone know if there is a Winter Witch archetype?

Nope, only class archetypes are Elementalist, Runelord Wizard, Wellspring Mage, and Flexible Spellcaster.

*Sad winter witch noises*

Nutbunnies. I figured if there was ever a manual for a Winter Witch Archetype it'd be the one about magic ya knows? Maybe we'll get it later in a manual about magic in the Inner Sea?

Could be in a book for the Saga Lands too.

Ah, okay, thanks Cori. ^m^

So lightnings isn't an elemental magic? It's pretty strange when you choose elemental archetype for storm druid and doesn't have any lightning spells like Horison thunder sphere.

So lightnings isn't an elemental magic? It's pretty strange when you choose elemental archetype for storm druid and doesn't have any lightning spells like Horison thunder sphere.

From what I've read, elemental air does bludgeoning damage and that is a flavor change from the previous edition. GM's can make house rules if they so choose.

Ra-Amon wrote:

So lightnings isn't an elemental magic? It's pretty strange when you choose elemental archetype for storm druid and doesn't have any lightning spells like Horison thunder sphere.

From what I've read, elemental air does bludgeoning damage and that is a flavor change from the previous edition. GM's can make house rules if they so choose.

I'm honestly kind of sad that bludgeoning is the default air damage, and not slashing.

Aaron Shanks wrote:

Ra-Amon wrote:

So lightnings isn't an elemental magic? It's pretty strange when you choose elemental archetype for storm druid and doesn't have any lightning spells like Horison thunder sphere.

From what I've read, elemental air does bludgeoning damage and that is a flavor change from the previous edition. GM's can make house rules if they so choose.

I'm honestly kind of sad that bludgeoning is the default air damage, and not slashing.

Kamaitachi everywhere commiserate* with you, too...

* A new word I learnt recently! :D

The "Bathe in Blood" ritual (page 148) should not have been a high-level ritual. That is all.

That reasoning is nonsensical with no basis attached to the setting or system.

Reversing aging/immortality is super duper rare in the game, being Rare and high level means it’s out of reach of lots of things, as it should. It’s hard/nigh-impossible for PCs AND NPCs.

As for you not thinking Countess Bathory/Carmilla fits a level 15 creature (for whatever reason), I guess you never read/played Curse of the Crimson Throne.

Yeah, there's a reason the Sun Orchid Elixir is so highly coveted (including, among others, by Tar-Baphon).

So lightnings isn't an elemental magic? It's pretty strange when you choose elemental archetype for storm druid and doesn't have any lightning spells like Horison thunder sphere.

In fairness, it never made too much sense that Elemental Air defaulted to Electricity/Lightning based spells and damage. Elemental Lightning is a secondary element (potentially) formed from the convergence of Elemental Air and Fire. Cosmologically speaking, that shouldn't be possible really, since the Plane of Fire and Air don't touch; but it does makes a lot of sense since lightning is composed of plasma, which can be created by superheating gas, so the correlation is there.

That said, it is defiently an oddity that there are few spells relating to any of the secondary elements. I suppose you could argue that the Elementalist and Elemental Spell list are based on the Elemental philosophy found within Golarion, which traditionally only recognizes the four elements of Air, Earth, Fire, and Water. Faulty argument, since there are a few Ice, Mud (which I opt to call Slag), and Magma based spells. So, Electricity really got the short end it seems.

Well I don't really think we should apply physics related to plasma to a fantasy setting and elemental magic. Magic-wise I have never encounter an interpretation that suggested that lightning is a mix of air and fire.

Paizo implies in when they quote lightning (alongside Ice, Mud, and Magama) as being a secondary elements; which are described as "mixtures" of the greater elements to make "lesser elements" (from Blood of the Elements). I'm not applying real world physics to anything that Paizo hasn't done so themselves. Much of fantasy is grounded in reality anyways. I stated it as being a likely explanation for why it reacts this way.

I also think that their decision to make Air based attacks be primarily bludgeoning damage instead of electric (as well as water being largely removed from cold damage) is an example of them possibly trying to tie those secondary elements into the whole setting better. Will this be the case? No idea. After all, Electricity is its own trait and is often tied to effects that also feature the Air trait.

Either way, it is implied in setting that lighting stems from Air and Fire interacting with one another.

Well I don't really think we should apply physics related to plasma to a fantasy setting and elemental magic. Magic-wise I have never encounter an interpretation that suggested that lightning is a mix of air and fire.

Slightly off topic, but Wheel of Time’s magic system mixed air and fire to get lightning.

GGSigmar wrote:

Well I don't really think we should apply physics related to plasma to a fantasy setting and elemental magic. Magic-wise I have never encounter an interpretation that suggested that lightning is a mix of air and fire.

Slightly off topic, but Wheel of Time’s magic system mixed air and fire to get lightning.

For its part, Forgotten Realms had lightning as an commixture of Air and Positive Energy.

For its part, Forgotten Realms had lightning as an commixture of Air and Positive Energy.

No wonder my Frankensteins aren’t animating!

Ly'ualdre wrote:

For its part, Forgotten Realms had lightning as an commixture of Air and Positive Energy.

No wonder my Frankensteins aren’t animating!

Intelligence is knowing that Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster.

Wisdom is knowing that Frankenstein was actually the monster all along.

Reading comprehension is knowing that Victor Frankenstein dropped out of college, and is thus not actually a doctor.

And knowing is half the battle?

Andrew Mullen wrote:

Ly'ualdre wrote:

For its part, Forgotten Realms had lightning as an commixture of Air and Positive Energy.

No wonder my Frankensteins aren’t animating!

Intelligence is knowing that Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster.

Wisdom is knowing that Frankenstein was actually the monster all along.

Reading comprehension is knowing that Victor Frankenstein dropped out of college, and is thus not actually a doctor.

Well, I mean, he's was keeping his own wife perpetually alive with an scientific device right (despite the fact she constantly begged him to let her die)? Or am I wrong on that? I kinda thought the whole point of Frankenstein making his monster was to heal his wife or bring her back from death.

Ventnor wrote:

Andrew Mullen wrote:

Ly'ualdre wrote:

For its part, Forgotten Realms had lightning as an commixture of Air and Positive Energy.

No wonder my Frankensteins aren’t animating!

Intelligence is knowing that Frankenstein was the doctor, not the monster.

Wisdom is knowing that Frankenstein was actually the monster all along.

Reading comprehension is knowing that Victor Frankenstein dropped out of college, and is thus not actually a doctor.

Well, I mean, he's was keeping his own wife perpetually alive with an scientific device right (despite the fact she constantly begged him to let her die)? Or am I wrong on that? I kinda thought the whole point of Frankenstein making his monster was to heal his wife or bring her back from death.

That was the Ravenloft version, Dr. Mordenheim. But both created the Monster more or less for "science". Mordenheims wife "survived" the attack and his curse is more or less that he can try as he might he will not be able to bring her back.

The world is full of shadows, but each living creature possesses a form of inner light to ward against that ever-present darkness… all except shadowcasters. By trading away that piece of their spirit, shadowcasters have removed a limiter, allowing them to gain magical power rooted in the darkness; however, this trade also exposes them to otherworldly whispers from the realms of shadow.

Any chance the author of the Shadow Magic section could give some more detail on what this "inner light" is?

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So, I found an "interesting" bit of text in the Bane rune description where it explains what types (trait) of creatures are susceptible to the effects.

The GM might allow bane runes for other creature traits, such as astral, dream, or demon. However, humanoids, undead, and specific types of humanoids (such as elves) are never a valid option.

*emphasis mine

So, I found an "interesting" bit of text in the Bane rune description where it explains what types (trait) of creatures are susceptible to the effects.

Secrets of Magic p180 wrote:

The GM might allow bane runes for other creature traits, such as astral, dream, or demon. However, humanoids, undead, and specific types of humanoids (such as elves) are never a valid option.

*emphasis mine

I think we all like the variety of options that Pathfinder provides, but it is strange that the designers would add restrictive language like this that (1) they cannot possibly enforce and (2) sets humanoids apart as some special group of creatures exempt from the idea of bane.

While they can't enforce it if the group is aware of the purpose of the restriction AND has contempt for it, it'll probably stop a GM who would have enabled it without thinking through the implications on request or something. This outlines that the intent is for the weapon to work on kinds of monsters and spirit, but not between groups often treated analogously to real world race.

Yeah, it's for the best that there not be "and here's my +1 Weapon of Racism". That doesn't belong in the game.

Yeah, it's for the best that there not be "and here's my +1 Weapon of Racism". That doesn't belong in the game.

We can only hope that Dwarves end up losing their +1 to +4 Feat of Racism in 3e.

Grankless wrote:

Yeah, it's for the best that there not be "and here's my +1 Weapon of Racism". That doesn't belong in the game.

We can only hope that Dwarves end up losing their +1 to +4 Feat of Racism in 3e.

Agreed. A +x bonus vs specific organizations or some such would flow a lot better.

A lot of weird dwarven racism made it into 2e remarkably intact.

I don't think it's an accident we're seeing more attention paid to their kinder cousins in Garund and Arcadia.

So its okay to be "racist" against Celestials and Fey but not humanoids? And its not like humanoids cannot be killed, we just cannot kill them harder? Its an interesting thought exercise to say its offensive to have a weapon that does a few more points of damage vs an elf or orc because of racism/cultural sensitivity while allowing the same thing vs a pixie or bralani.

However, my main point was just that unlike virtually anything else in the game that could be extruded poorly, they went to extra lengths to "ban" uses of Bane. Seemed like an odd hill to die on and given the outcome is a half-measure. If guarding against racism was the intent, then maybe the Bane concept has no place in Pathfinder at all. Not that I am personally advocating for that, just taking the intent (as I read it) to its logical conclusion.

I think they didn't want to make "humanoid bane" a thing in fear of it being too large category without specific types. Also kinda interesting how they removed undead bane being a thing (which does make sense since there is already anti undead weapons I guess)

It would have been as simple as indicating you had to specify a sub-type of humanoid. That has been a fairly common practice for years, so I really don't see that as a limiting factor. Though it does start to get complicated if you require a specific humanoid subtype, but allow say "fiends" to cover virtually all demons, devils, daemons, velstrac and a few ancillary creatures.

I also don't think an exception to undead was necessary if the reason was there are already was to address them as that is true for many other creature types like the aforementioned fiends.

In my 2E-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign, the hobgoblins just developed Bane-human though they are rare. I don't see that as any more problematic than the PCs having some Bane-fey arrows recovered from a dead Chernasardo ranger.

Secrets of Magic wrote:

The world is full of shadows, but each living creature possesses a form of inner light to ward against that ever-present darkness… all except shadowcasters. By trading away that piece of their spirit, shadowcasters have removed a limiter, allowing them to gain magical power rooted in the darkness; however, this trade also exposes them to otherworldly whispers from the realms of shadow.

Any chance the author of the Shadow Magic section could give some more detail on what this "inner light" is?

The discussion we had about it on the design team was that it's literally just like, a specific fragment of the spirit and soul. It's the thing that gets worn away from living creatures in the Shadow Plane over time and which beings native to the Shadow Plane like velstracs don't have, and which immigrants to the Shadow Plane like fetchlings lost to become what they are. It's the thing that was tortured out of Dou-Bral when he wandered too far into the darkness and came back as Zon-Kuthon. The inner light isn't good or evil, just like shadow isn't good or evil, but it is the thing inside that causes someone to recoil from entropy and seek out light and life.

Sounds like the instinct for self-preservation.

Which gives me new insights into Zon-Kuthon. Thank you a lot.

The discussion we had about it on the design team was that it's literally just like, a specific fragment of the spirit and soul. It's the thing that gets worn away from living creatures in the Shadow Plane over time and which beings native to the Shadow Plane like velstracs don't have, and which immigrants to the Shadow Plane like fetchlings lost to become what they are. It's the thing that was tortured out of Dou-Bral when he wandered too far into the darkness and came back as Zon-Kuthon. The inner light isn't good or evil, just like shadow isn't good or evil, but it is the thing inside that causes someone to recoil from entropy and seek out light and life.

Excellent, that's exactly what I was looking for, thank you!

So has anybody noticed the spell section having recurring sideplot of 35 year journey of a witch? Because that was nice read xD

Any word on when an errata/clarification is coming for SoM?

Any word on when an errata/clarification is coming for SoM?

Given we're still waiting for the errata for the Advanced Player's Guide, this is probably gonna be a long ways away (unless they suddenly get in the habit of updating the FAQ page before print errata).

Tridus wrote:

Any word on when an errata/clarification is coming for SoM?

Given we're still waiting for the errata for the Advanced Player's Guide, this is probably gonna be a long ways away (unless they suddenly get in the habit of updating the FAQ page before print errata).

Generally Paizo does not make errata timeline forecasts. We post when a new printing is shipping from the warehouse. Telling people the errata without selling a book that reflects the errata is no good. That said, the Advanced Player's Guide reprint and errata looks imminent to me and the SOM is soon.

Ezekieru wrote:

Tridus wrote:

Any word on when an errata/clarification is coming for SoM?

Given we're still waiting for the errata for the Advanced Player's Guide, this is probably gonna be a long ways away (unless they suddenly get in the habit of updating the FAQ page before print errata).

Generally Paizo does not make errata timeline forecasts. We post when a new printing is shipping from the warehouse. Telling people the errata without selling a book that reflects the errata is no good. That said, the Advanced Player's Guide reprint and errata looks imminent to me and the SOM is soon.

Thank You, here's to hoping soonish!

Ezekieru wrote:

Tridus wrote:

Any word on when an errata/clarification is coming for SoM?

Given we're still waiting for the errata for the Advanced Player's Guide, this is probably gonna be a long ways away (unless they suddenly get in the habit of updating the FAQ page before print errata).

Generally Paizo does not make errata timeline forecasts. We post when a new printing is shipping from the warehouse. Telling people the errata without selling a book that reflects the errata is no good. That said, the Advanced Player's Guide reprint and errata looks imminent to me and the SOM is soon.

Looking forward to it dropping

Interestingly, this means that smaller size of first print is the friend of earlier errata, and thus of higher product quality.

Interestingly, this means that smaller size of first print is the friend of earlier errata, and thus of higher product quality.

Yes, selling out of a first print and reordering quickly is our goal. I think the danger is selling out too quickly for the creative team to have the time to create the errata.

Watch the interview: Secrets of Magic with Paizo Lead Designer Logan Bonner - Pathfinder 2e from The Gallant Goblin.

Any ETA on errata?

Any ETA on errata?

No ETA.

Probably something you're already aware of, but for when errata comes:
Burning Blossoms is kinda unusable because of the fascinated condition.
Have to ask the rest of your party to not attack but keep taking hits/running away for the duration of the spell.
Easiest fix I've seen is having creatures make the save at the beginning of their turns, rather than instantaneously and then at the end.