Eidolon class feature: Summoner Dedication and feature's actions? (Book vs AoN)


Rules Discussion


Intro:
The Eidolon class feature is a long entry (might be the longest I know) and partially confusing to me. (But I'll get to that later.) Its description starts on Secrets of Magic (SoM), page 52, at the top of right column, and runs all the way to the bottom of page 53, left column, ending with the paragraph:

Secrets of Magic pg. 53 1.1 wrote:
"Lastly, the connection between you and your eidolon means [...] For instance, if you and your eidolon get caught in an area effect that would heal or damage you both, only the greater amount of healing or damage applies. "

The whole class feature entry also contains 3 distinct actions/activities: "Manifest Eidolon", "Act Together", "Share Senses". At least I strongly presume they are part of the feature itself, since Summoner's class chapter doesn't list them somewhere else. The table of class features just says "Eidolon".

Now when I read the Summoner Dedication entry at SoM, page 76 - and particularly after I read FlurryofBlunders's interpretation and Guide from 2023-03-24 - I am somewhat irritated.

Important NOTE:
If possible, please look into SoM book/pdf, first and not into Archives of Nethys (AoN) only. The summoner may be one case (of relatively few I encountered) where I'd say that AoN might actually worsen the comprehension, up to mislead readers. IMO, that happens because AoN changed the Summoner Dedication entry (pg. 76) by removing the Eidolon's reference to book page 52, which was replaced by a hyperlink to a different rule section. Just compare book/pdf with the respective AoN-pages. On top of that, AoN copied the Manifest Eidolon-action into the summoner dedication page, which again does not reflect SoM, page 76.
Most probably this was made for good intentions to help convenience of readers and/or by some automated parsing mechanism. However, all-in-all with these differences, AoN actively promotes a certain interpretation that might not accurately reflect the book/pdf.

Consideration on Class Features and Eidolon:
In general I'd say, that if you get a certain class feature, you get everything included unless explicitly ruled otherwise. However, the wording of the Summoner Dedication is put in a way, I find particularly unfortunate. I can narrow down the problem onto the following two sentences, particularly one phrase inside:

Secrets of Magic pg. 76 1.1 wrote:
"You gain an eidolon (page 52) as well as the Manifest Eidolon action. Due to your tenuous link, you can’t gain or use tandem actions."

Central Question: What does this mean? Particularly, what is the nature of the phrase "as well as the Manifest Eidolon activity"?


  • Is this phrase a mere hint for convenience, a reminder that the Eidolon feature is based on one central action, in this case "Manifest ..."? Although it is redundant then, because Eidolon Class Feature on page 52 contains that action, already.
  • Or is the phrase meant as hard rule statement that implicitly - by mentioning only one of the 3 Eidolon actions - is meant to rule out the other Eidolon Ability actions? Although it doesn't really say that, and naively by RAW I wouldn't know why Share Senses should be arbitrarily removed from the middle of the Eidolon Ability entry.

Depending on the answer, we now have the following situation concerning the feature's actions:
- Manifest Eidolon is by all means included.
- Act Together is forbidden as it's an explicitly forbidden tandem action.
- Shared Senses is ...?

Personal Opinion: I'd currently tend to include Share Senses. Both for role playing potential and remaining utility value, and because I think that the Multiclass Eidolon is already badly restricted through shared action pool w/o tandem actions. This action restriction seems so worse that many users (incl. me) consider it more of a burden than a benefit in encounters. Consequently, the real usefulness would be outside encounters. Then again being restricted to 100 ft. radius by default puts further limitations on the entity. So I think Share Senses is rather fine for Multiclass Summoners without game breaking.

Still I am irritated that I have this bad feeling of not really knowing what was intended by the developers. Did I miss something? Was this ever clarified? If not, maybe - if someone knows - might I kindly ask for a hint about the designers' intentions? Any contribution that helps to get insight into the matter is ofc welcome, likewise.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think your entire argument for including Share Senses is based on this.

calnivo wrote:
In general I'd say, that if you get a certain class feature, you get everything included unless explicitly ruled otherwise.

Which in general should be the case. I would point to Witch archetype and how much of Witch Familiar is or is not included too, but hopefully that will be fixed in a couple of weeks.

So I expect different GMs to rule differently based on whether they think that the Summoner Dedication is giving you the entire Eidolon class feature (minus the Tandem actions) or if you are just getting an Eidolon (creature) and the Manifest Eidolon action.

With the wording: "You gain an eidolon as well as the Manifest Eidolon activity." That leads me to read it as just the Eidolon creature.

The problem with that idea is that having just the Eidolon creature without any of the other benefits of the Eidolon class feature means that you don't share HP either, since that is not part of the Eidolon stats (that the dedication does specify) and is not given as part of the dedication feat.


breithauptclan wrote:

[...]

With the wording: "You gain an eidolon as well as the Manifest Eidolon activity." That leads me to read it as just the Eidolon creature.

Note: On pain of coming accross as pedantic: SoM actually says "You gain an eidolon (page 52) as well as the Manifest Eidolon activity." (italics mine), not something like "eidolon (page 56)" as AoN suggests by it's (IMO) bad link.

But in general, I see what you mean. I'd concur; it's so unclear that obviously GM's come to different conclusions how it's meant. Though I don't believe that was intended. (BTW: The same way that I still hope that the familiar irritations were not intended, too. Hoping dearly for remaster...)

breithauptclan wrote:


The problem with that idea is that having just the Eidolon creature without any of the other benefits of the Eidolon class feature means that you don't share HP either, since that is not part of the Eidolon stats (that the dedication does specify) and is not given as part of the dedication feat.

That's the thing. Apparently the very own functioning of Eidolon -- it's mechanics from it's general nature over shared actions till shared HP -- is defined in the feature of the class entry.

Addition: Generally speaking, I think some amount of "Ask your GM-rulings" was fine in a rule system. I just would like to know when this is intended, and when not. That is knowing whether something is deliberately undefined to leave the exact implementation to each group, or rather an oversight when book was written.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
calnivo wrote:
Generally speaking, I think some amount of "Ask your GM-rulings" was fine in a rule system. I just would like to know when this is intended, and when not. That is knowing whether something is deliberately undefined to leave the exact implementation to each group, or rather an oversight when book was written.

This - and the Witch Archetype Familiar one - both feel like an oversight. It isn't specified well enough. And 'what abilities are usable' is not something that should be left up to the players to have to decide. It leads to too much confusion as players are building their characters under one assumption and then the GM is unhappy with their assumptions when the game actually starts.

But it also isn't one that I can rule on definitively.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Eidolon class feature: Summoner Dedication and feature's actions? (Book vs AoN) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.