I have a Dwarf Cleric, good Str(18), good Con(16), mediocre Dex(12). This guy has to function as a front line fighter. Other characters are a Wizard and a Rogue and we're all first level and maybe we'll go to eighth. So what's my best choice of feats? Armor Prof.? Toughness? Skill Focus Craft/ Begging (a little humor there)? And then where do we go? I'm thinking Power Attack later with his Strength. I'm new to the PF Cleric scene and know you rules wizards can help a brother out. Thank you.
|
I wouldn't go with Armor Prof, since average starting gold for a cleric is 140gp, and even the max of 200gp will only get you Splintmail(which has a Max Dex of +0).
If the Rogue is a ranged kind of rogue, go with Negative Energy type of cleric and grab Extra Channeling. Ask your other players if they are fine with that though, and remember that you'll need to prepare Cure Spells.
Extra Channel is a good feat for Positive Energy clerics too of course, since it frees up some spells slots(you don't need to give up Shield of Faith for a Cure Light for example, unless you are out of channeling for the day).
Mix Power Attack with spells like Divine Might and/or Magic Weapon to dish out the damage. Toughness later on is a good choice if you're using a two-handed weapon(or a one-handed weapon using two hands), since you can't use a shield and that means your Armor Class will be lower.
Skill Focus(Craft/Begging) depends on who much time your DM let's your character have between adventures.
I hope I helped!
If it's important, the other stats are Int (10), Charisma(12), Wisdom (16) after racial adjustments (these roles are set in stone and given by DM). Domains are Travel and Luck; I'm a Neutral Good follower of the Travel Goddess. At least at first, the Rogue and I will be the front line. Other PC's or NPC's might join in later, but that's not to be counted on. I'm not saying this is the optimal group(!), but I would like to make the most of a PF Cleric, focusing on feats for this thread.
Some possibilities:
Heavy Armor Prof. I'd be glad to forgo this one at first level, though let's keep in mind that after a few adventures, I should be able to afford some.
Extra Channeling That's good to keep the party skipping happily along, so definitely worth immediate consideration, along with Selective Channeling.
Toughness If the idea is to keep me on my feet, the plus to hit points is awfully handy and means the most as the first level feat.
Power Attack I wish I qualified for this one at the start, but it'll have to wait till I get the +1 BAB pre-req. Unless talked out of it, I'll grab this one at third level.
Skill Focus *Profession*/Begging Let's hope we don't have to resort to this one.
Are there any other considerations? Are there other Pathfinder feats not in the core Player's Guide that could help? Just to be clear, it's Pathfinder only material for the campaign, and I'm considering getting feats from first to seventh or ninth level.
I'd forget about Heavy Armour Prof. If you're dead set on it go Fighter 1 - get Martial Weapon Prof, +1 BAB, +1 feat, on top of heavy armour.
+1 for Selective Channeling - Don't heal the enemy.
Extra Channeling - Save your spells for buffing.
Then Power Attack
good luck
With your charisma I would skip selective channel as you would only be able to exclude 2 targets.
Knowing you are going to 8th level or so I would suggest.
Combat Casting (If you plan to cast in melee)
Toughness
Extra Channel (for out of combat healing mostly)
are all good early on.
If you are going to use a shield I would suggest the following.
Heavy Armor at 3rd and maybe shield focus.
If you are going to use a two handed weapon I suggest the following.
Power Attack and cleave.
Some other things to think about depending on the ability to purchase magic is Craft Potion or Craft Wand to extend your ability to use odd spells or extra healing.
Skip selective channeling, you don't qualify for its 13 cha min anyway.
Extra Channeling. Your low charisma will limit how often you can channel, and its utility is amasing. That being said, since its a small party, you wont need the AoE as much. Wands may be a better choice
Power attack is optional. It will only get you 4 (6 if TH) extra damage per hit, and you wont see that until 6th level. Weapon Focus often is a better choice at the low levels, though it depends on what you find yourself fighting. If the GM likes high AC baddies, go weapon focus. Low AC ones, power attack. You wont be able to select either until lvl 3, and chosing these for 3 and 5 wont hurt you at all.
Combat casting will be good. IME it brings you up from ~25% to ~50% chance to cast in melee. Its usually best to avoid melee casting though, and usually you can 5 ft step to do it.
Toughness I often don't go for, but I would strongly consider with this group. You will be the primary front line with a rogue. Keeping the healer up is a good thing, since you will be needed to heal more frequently wiht lower AC friends.
Boosting your defense a little bit with dodge or shield focus probably wont hurt.
Extend Spell often isn't a bad thing. Doubling a lot of the low level buffs can be nice, but it depends on your combat style. Its nice if your party often fights long combats. You wont be able to really use it until 3rd though.
So, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric... Sounds like your strategy should be more to tank it up than deal damage. Your Rogue and Wizard should handle that. You need to survive and keep them alive.
I've been in your situation before where, as the cleric, I had to be the leader/defender/support/tank/etc. It's tough for sure and I couldn't spare feats for being a basher.
With your outstanding Strength score, you'll be able to hit and deal damage just fine. Instead of using feats to augment this, use spells. Bless and Shield of Faith are all great for you and your party.
Try to enable your Rogue by flanking. What's good about this is that you're always just a 5 step away from healing and you'll both get a +2 boost to attack. Seems basic, but it's lost on some players.
If damage is spread out during combat, channeling is an excellent after-combat plan. However, if someone get ganged up on, you'll have to drop prepared spells during combat.
Feats that I'd recommend: Combat Casting, Shield Focus, Toughness
Good feats that you probably don't need (and why): Defensive Combat Training (mid BaB + high Str + dwarven stability), Power Attack (high Str + spells)
Power attack and then cleave.
Power attack and then cleave.
This. Power attack is a decent choice, but cleave is amazing.
I would take a level of fighter, then go cleric. Weapon focus, power attack, cleave. Make sure you use a weapon that can be wielded two handed for the extra damage from strength and power attack.
Chris Stanger wrote:
Power attack and then cleave.This. Power attack is a decent choice, but cleave is amazing.
I would take a level of fighter, then go cleric. Weapon focus, power attack, cleave. Make sure you use a weapon that can be wielded two handed for the extra damage from strength and power attack.
This is a nice idea, but in a 3 man group, he has to have other priorities.
That goes for you whole party. Your rogue needs to be tougher and slide into more of an off-tank role. Your wizard needs to be able to even the playing field all day. Sleep and Color Spray. The cleric has to be tough and hard to hit. If this cleric goes down, good-bye rest-o-party.
With that Strength and Constitution, you're well on your way to being a front-liner, but damage shouldn't be your 1st priority. Don't get me wrong, you'll have to pull your weight on the damage front too, but do it with spells (ie buffs) and tactics. Your feats should go to defense, IMO.
Chris Stanger wrote:
Power attack and then cleave.This. Power attack is a decent choice, but cleave is amazing.
I would take a level of fighter, then go cleric. Weapon focus, power attack, cleave. Make sure you use a weapon that can be wielded two handed for the extra damage from strength and power attack.This is a nice idea, but in a 3 man group, he has to have other priorities.
That goes for you whole party. Your rogue needs to be tougher and slide into more of an off-tank role. Your wizard needs to be able to even the playing field all day. Sleep and Color Spray. The cleric has to be tough and hard to hit. If this cleric goes down, good-bye rest-o-party.
With that Strength and Constitution, you're well on your way to being a front-liner, but damage shouldn't be your 1st priority. Don't get me wrong, you'll have to pull your weight on the damage front too, but do it with spells (ie buffs) and tactics. Your feats should go to defense, IMO.
Level of fighter = heavy armor profiency and Tower shield profiency = more AC as well as a better selection of weapons and a bonus combat feat.
In a 3 person party, combat casting is a bad idea for 2 reasons.
1. A cleric has several ways of not provoking AoO already(channel doesn't provoke, 5 foot step back). No point in wasting a feat on it.
2. Every round the cleric is casting, they are not dealing damage. With those stats, you are looking at a cleric who can hit for 10-20 damage a round with no buffs up at level 3. Cleave can double that. No spell a level 3 cleric can cast is going to make up for losing that much damage for a round.
Save your spells and buffs for outside of combat.
Save your spells and buffs for outside of combat.
Ok, good points. However...
Channel in combat is no good. It'll heal enemies which will kill your strategy. It's been decided that selective channeling is not in the cards for this guy. No worries though, like you said save it for out of combat.
So, you suggest an attrition strategy. Kill them before they kill us... Your suggestions are good for that kind of strategy.
I think it will work well except in certain situations: Ambushes or times when the party isn't prepared to fight, when the enemy has a competent healer, and when the enemy is better at attrition than the party.
So, if he goes with Charender's idea, make sure you are max'ed out in Perception. Get scrolls of Alarm. Make sure everyone can heal themselves in a pinch (potions). Don't be afraid to fall back, regroup, and buff.
Save your spells and buffs for outside of combat.Ok, good points. However...
Channel in combat is no good. It'll heal enemies which will kill your strategy. It's been decided that selective channeling is not in the cards for this guy. No worries though, like you said save it for out of combat.
So, you suggest an attrition strategy. Kill them before they kill us... Your suggestions are good for that kind of strategy.
I think it will work well except in certain situations: Ambushes or times when the party isn't prepared to fight, when the enemy has a competent healer, and when the enemy is better at attrition than the party.
So, if he goes with Charender's idea, make sure you are max'ed out in Perception. Get scrolls of Alarm. Make sure everyone can heal themselves in a pinch (potions). Don't be afraid to fall back, regroup, and buff.
That strat beats ending up in a death spiral where you are getting overwhelmed because your enemies are not dying.
I don't see how the enemy having a healer makes a difference. Remember that on average a clerics will heal for less than half the damage they are taking. You are much better off focusing on offense and hoping you can drop the threat before someone dies.
Example 1:A CR10 encounter deals potentially 50-60 damage a round. A level 10 cleric best single target heal heals for 4d8+10 = 28.
Example 2:At level 3, an melee optimized cleric can put out 10-20 damage on up to 2 targets with cleave. An enemy cleric using channel can heal those 2 targets for 7 damage on average.
Channeling without selective channeling can still be a good idea at times. If you outnumber your enemies, then you are getting more out of it than your opponents.
With a 3 person party, alarm and potions are going to be a must no matter which way you go.
Thanks for the response all you who recently posted. Please note that Power Attack requires a BAB of +1. @#$$%^%^. So I'll have to wait till 3rd level. It's a defensive feat in that it rids the field of nasty people- best defense is a good offense. I'm still agonizing over Level 1 feat, leaning towards Toughness, with Improved Initiative a dark horse candidate (Again the reasoning is getting in the first whack/ best position can save our hides).
In 3.5 I'd never ever lose a caster level, but if the group stays us three I might, shudder, have to dip a level of fighter as some have suggested. That really scares me, though; because of favored class I wouldn't even get a Hit Point out of it but would pick up Heavy Armor and a feat. Please someone talk me out of it.
Please.
PS xAverusx, note that you've got me thinking defense even if I don't take your feat suggestions. But I'll remember your advice when I buy magic gear, assuming I make it to that point, and just for general tactics. Thanks for making me even more paranoid.
Thanks for the response all you who recently posted. Please note that Power Attack requires a BAB of +1. @#$$%^%^. So I'll have to wait till 3rd level. It's a defensive feat in that it rids the field of nasty people- best defense is a good offense. I'm still agonizing over Level 1 feat, leaning towards Toughness, with Improved Initiative a dark horse candidate (Again the reasoning is getting in the first whack/ best position can save our hides).
In 3.5 I'd never ever lose a caster level, but if the group stays us three I might, shudder, have to dip a level of fighter as some have suggested. That really scares me, though; because of favored class I wouldn't even get a Hit Point out of it but would pick up Heavy Armor and a feat. Please someone talk me out of it.
Please.
PS xAverusx, note that you've got me thinking defense even if I don't take your feat suggestions. But I'll remember your advice when I buy magic gear, assuming I make it to that point, and just for general tactics. Thanks for making me even more paranoid.
That is why I reccomended you take your first level of fighter.
+2 hps(since you get max HP at first level)+1 BAB(so you can get weapon focus or power attack at level 1)
+1 combat feat(so you can get weapon focus AND power attack at level 1)
+heavy armor profiency(so you don't have to blow a feat later)
+tower shield profiency(more AC!!!)
-don't get heals until level 2
Another option is to see if your DM will let you take the Holy Warrior cleric option from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book. You give up all your domain spells and abilities to gain d10 HD and +1 BAB per level