This is for my homebrew sandbox campaign.
I don't want to ban PCs enchanting gear, but I do want to limit/ control it. (I also do not have 'magic marts' in my game). The standard tools of controlling pc wealth and available time to craft don't work for my style and philosophy as a gm, so I am kicking around two alternate systems/ rules for this and am intersted in opinions on how these two would play out.
Idea 1: Caster level is a hard requorement, and prereqs may not be ignored.
Idea 2: Each magic item needs a "recipe" known. These could be firgured out by examining an item, or researched from scratch. Spellcraft DCs would be based on complexity of the item, CL of the item, and if the item particularly matches, or doesn't, the crafter's domains/ arcane school/ bloodline, whatever.
Obviously the first would be simpler, though the second is not too much work. So ideas?
Sounds good, and exactly like what I have envisioned, though never tested, since my players universally prefer martial characters.
Regarding the recipe requirement, I would exempt certain items: all scrolls, potions of level 1 or 2, wands of level one or two. Anything else would require one of three options:
1) finding an old wizard's grimoire detailing item construction for this specific item. Wizard's guilds, dwarven smith guilds or secret societies could provide some standard recipes for common items.
2) using an existing item as a model and reverse engineering it, basically making a copy.
3) researching a method and recipe of making a specific item.
I know many players and DMs on these boards would scream bloody murder at any attempt to make crafting harder, but I feel it's all too easy and the measly +5 per missing prerequisite is all too easily overcome when there are so many ways to build for boosting skill bonuses like spellcraft.
I would prefer at the very least to see the 3CL per +1 or magic weapons or armor to be a hard limit, unable to be circumvented by a simple +5. If they'd even specified +5 per CL short of target, that would have done something. Instead, this +5 to DC penalty is simply trivial.
So feel free to homerule in this manner, sounds like a good approach.
Use the Dynamic Item Creation rules from Pathfinder:Unchained. It makes making magic items harder without being unfair, while also making it a more team based event.
Or you could use the talisman based item crafting mentioned in Ultimate Magic.
Wheldrake, have you bern reading my mind? Essentially everything you commented I have thought about for this system, potions, scrolls, and wands would stay as written, recipes would be needed for others. Each feat comes with one basic recipe, weapons and armor would be the basic enhancement bonus.
Milo, I'm not using Unchained, but adding talismanic components, maybe as an option, sounds cool, thanks.
This is very amusing, your fixes pretty much mirror my own; shown here are my house rules for my Reign of Winter campaign regarding crafting:
This has all my crafting/item request house rules consolidated together for one easy find (you can delete all previous after this one):
After a lot of thought, and changes I have made to crafting, I am only going to allow the unlimited crafting of potions and scrolls in games I run (see rules below); other crafting is limited by recipes, as follows: when a character first gains a Crafting Feat (other than Potions on Scrolls), they know a limited amount of recipes equal to the minimum required level to gain that Feat i.e. Craft Wondrous item requires 3rd level, so the character starts knowing three recipes. As you level, you gain two recipes per level. If you gain the Feat at a later level, you still only start with the minimum known number of recipes. Recipes may be bought or found through adventuring, etc., in addition to those gained for free by leveling. Each recipe cost is equal to the crafting cost for that item.
So, to balance the reduction in crafting, once per Chapter (i.e. module) of an Adventure Path (at the beginning of the Chapter), each player can request a certain magic item, not to exceed 1/3 of the WBL cost of the highest level you would achieve during that chapter; I will work that item in during that Chapter in some manner (either in a treasure hoard, an NPC you fight using it as part of their gear, automatically available for sale in a shop, etc.).
Most AP's start at 1st; at the end of the first Chapter, you are 4th; at the end of the second, 7th; third, 10th, fourth, 13th; fifth, 15th and sixth, 17th.
Obviously, if the item you request is expensive, you may need to wait till the end of the chapter to get it. That will be a balancing act for what you want; less expensive item you get earlier vs. more expensive item you may not get until the end of the chapter.
Example: Player with a rogue wants to be able to carry tons of gear but doesn't have the Strength score for a decent encumbrance. He requests a Handy Haversack (2000 GP) as his first Chapter item. The Haversack is just on the 1/3 WBL for 4th level, so I would place it in the treasure hoard of the final encounter for the module.
On to the crafting specifics:
These are the rulebook crafting rules:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.
I am going to modify the potion/scroll part a bit:
First, this line " Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day" no longer applies to potions/scrolls that have a base price of 250 GP or less, but does apply to any potion or scroll that's market price is above the 250 GP, but additional rules for these types are listed below.
All scrolls can have a maximum of 3 spells on them, with an additional maximum of 15 Spell Levels (Average of 1st and 9th, x3) amongst those 3 spells. Once either of those maximums are met, another scroll must be made.
If the market price of an individual spell on the scroll is above 250 GP, but ≤ 1000 GP, it takes 8 hours to place that spell on the scroll. A spell above 1000 GP uses the normal crafting rules to place it on the scroll. Spells ≤ 250 GP take 2 hours for the first spell and 3 hours for each additional spell placed on the scroll (I added the 50% increase in this case to the time instead of the cost that you would normally add it to since it's multiple abilities in the same item; think of it like boiling water, if 1 quart takes 10 minutes to boil, 2 quarts don't take 20 minutes, it may take 30 minutes instead). So now you may craft a single scroll of 3 spells (each market price 250 GP or less) for 8 hours work.
If the market price of a potion is above 250 GP, but ≤ 1000 GP, it takes 8 hours to make that potion. A potion above 1000 GP uses the normal crafting rules to create.
Potions ≤ 250 GP take 2 hours for the first potion and 3 hours for each additional potion of the same spell and level, but this requires only one casting of the spell instead of three castings! Potions of differing spells or levels require 2 hours each. So now you can make 3 exact potions in 8 hours with one casting of a spell or 4 individual potions in 8 hours with 4 castings of spells. You can also make 2 identical potions in 5 hours and a third differing potion in a total of 7 hours. That extra hour cannot be used for any additional crafting that day!
I think these are fair rules and overcome the "Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day" rules pretty well. These rules will not be applied to any other items besides potions and scrolls (no making wands of lesser charges in only 2 hours, sorry).
Now, the specific crafting changes:
I am going to change crafting in my campaigns. It is way too easy to make Magic Items, so...
I have already stated I do not let you bypass any requirements (unless you make items via Master Craftsman Feat) except you may take +5 DC to create an item in half the time. You may Take 10 on crafting, but not 20, as there are penalties for failure.
The CL stated in the block of the item description (some items have variable levels, those override the CL stated in the CL block, most of the time that is for the highest end item; other items have specific level requirements also and specific spell requirements you must meet) is the base CL to create the item (you must be this level to make this individual item, it cannot be bypassed by anyone).
The DC to make an item will now be the CL+10+the market value of the item modifier.
The market value modifier is the market cost, starting at 1000 GP, doubling each time (we will be using 125K and 250K for ease of reference instead of 128K and 256K) The initial modifier (1000 GP) and each doubling add +2 DC to the Crafting DC. If in the middle of two modifiers, just round to the closer +1 or +2 like we do in Champions.
Here is an example:
You are making a Longsword +5, Vorpal.
To make a Weapon +5, you must be 15th level. To make a Weapon Vorpal, you must be 18th level.
The base DC is 18+10, so 28.
The Weapon +5 costs 50K, a Weapon +10 (Vorpal counts as a +5 Modifier) costs 200K.
Each component is made individually, so the final DC to make this item would be Base 28, +17 for cost doubling to 150K, so DC 45.
Let's look at, and compare, the same caster to both methods (mine and the book)...
18th Wizard, max ranks in Spellcraft, starting with a 16 Int at 1st, taking each Ability Score Advancement to Int and having a +6 Int item (which he could make himself, so I am sure he would have) and a +1 Trait bonus: Int 26, Spellcraft 30...
Book DC: 23, My DC: 45
At the minimum level to make the item, he automatically succeeds in making it in half the time, even without rolling! That is totally ridiculous!
My method makes him roll (even taking 10 he can't succeed) to craft the item; he can make it if he rolls a 15, in half the time if he rolls a 20.
Let's do the same guy, who has concentrated on Spellcraft to make Crafting easier; he has Skill Focus: Spellcraft and Magic Aptitude Feats...
Spellcraft is now 40 (remember the +2 from Magic Aptitude and the +3 from Skill Focus double once you have 10 ranks in the skill)...
He Takes 10, for a 50, and now can automatically make the item in half the time with a DC: 50. This guy has spent many Feats to perfect his skill and he can just make it half the time. That is how it should be I think!
Finally...
A full 1/3 of your crafting materials are going to be generic, by type, i.e. Crafting Feat; you can have a general pre-purchased amount of generic crafting material that can be used in the creation of any magic item of the same type.
The remaining materials must be specific to the item being made; this is where you can use the component option below to cover additional expenses.
For example, you want to add Flaming to your Scimitar +1, a difference of 6000 GP. The materials to make this change will cost 3000 GP; 1/3 of that will be generic crafting materials used for Craft Magic Arms and Armor, so 1000 GP. The remaining 2000 GP will be specific components to make the flaming ability; something like Fire Giant Blood may be worth 500 GP normally, but for crafting Flaming weapons (or Rings of Fire Resistance), it is essentially worth 1000 GP.
Certain powerful items may actually require specific components you have to seek out to make them...
Components:
I am also going to implement components from certain creatures. These components can be used as part of the items needed for crafting magic items.
The character will need to roll an appropriate Knowledge Skill (only if they have a rank in Spellcraft), to know what parts can be harvested from a creature.
To harvest the "components", either a specific Profession or Survival check will be required.
So, combining all together, no unlimited crafting allowed except for potions/scrolls; you require recipes for each item. All items crafted use the above increased crafting DC's and rules (including potions and scrolls). Any item you make may require additional components you must specifically seek out and/or purchase separately from generic components.
Pretty much everything talked about in this chain, =)
Is there any particular aspect of creating items you don't like? Do you simply want to prevent the players from shopping in Ultimate Equipment and picking out stuff they want to craft? Would you prefer they get most of their equipment from treasure? What would be cases where crafting items is appropriate? What would be cases where crafting items isn't appropriate? All these questions are important for figuring out a good solution.
Do they still need item creation feats?
I wiould still require crafting feats. What I want to remove is idea that players pick items for their builds the way they do feats etc. This wil have the effect of reducing the 'big six' nature of gear lists, and I know that this will reduce the APL equivalent of the party. Items that are interesting, but not the most optimal, will likely be used more, found items will be more important, and the need to acquire enchanting recipes will be another motivation and reward.
Someone else suggested batch crafting. You can only make one type of potion or scroll at a time, but you could make 3 doses of cure mod as a batch. While you could not work on 2 swords at a time, you might be able to craft more than 1 magic candle at a time.
I acknowledge that many misc. magic items are really re-skinned potions. You don't have to.
More on topic, in advanced I had my magic user hunt through the woods to find the hollow piece of thorn bush he needed. He melted some silver pieces, using the thorns he snapped off as fuel, and filled the hollow stick with molten silver. He fastened a bloodstone to the end the magic would come out of, and then enchanted the wand of magic missiles he made. All ingredients he gathered or claimed as treasure were subtracted from the gp. cost to create it. All ingredients were related to damage and energy. He wrote this recipe in one of his spell books.
Next time I GM I will have such recipes each occupy a place in a characters mental inventory. This also limits the number of different items the character makes in a week of downtime.
I just use the rule of "commission it or use what you find"
It seems to work well for my groups.