Dubbing of films / tv shows. Evil or Horribly evil?

I hate dubbing. I see it as an insult to the original material and original actors who get their voices dubbed over. I would, if i could, make it illegal to dub anything except children's cartoons. And then, TV stations would still have to provide subtitled versions on the same day they air a dubbed one.
I don't understand the point. Are there so many illiterate or lazy people who don't want to read subtitles?
To me, the magic is completely broken once eg. Patrick Stuart opens his mouth and some other dude's voice comes out that cannot nearly do him justice.

Well, both of my parents and two of my players need varifocal glasses. Using those, it is almost impossible to enjoy a movie/show and read the related subtitles.

None of the are illiterate or lazy.

I am sure they are glad you aren't in charge of this decision.

Personally, I enjoy being able to know what's going on in a TV show when I'm not in the room, because I'm usually cooking, washing dishes, or doing something else around the house while watching a show or movie.

I guess that makes me lazy though. :rolleyes:

@ feytharn

Damn, I didn't know about that. That sucks.

@ rynjin

I don't do housework when i watch something so i can't really relate. I tend to give things my undivided attention.
Couple that with my proficiency in english and i don't really have a problem not understanding what is said.
If a show is in a language i don't understand, i sit, watch and read subtitles.

Saying this from the position of a guy who watches anime in their original Japanese language, I think dubbing can be a good thing because sometimes the original voice actors sound AWFUL, also, there's an anime (who's name escapes me), I DARE you to watch it with subtitles without pausing it every 5-10 seconds, the dialogue is fast and there's usually many people speaking at once and it's actually famous for having the most annoying to read subtitles ever (they've even been colour coded to make it easier to differentiate them).

Plus, I work with a lot of expats, they don't speak the native language and we DO get subbed shows and guess what: They can't understand the foreign subtitles to a foreign movie. I have the spanish horror movie rec subbed in my own language that my ex-pat buddies can't read (and rec is TOO awesome to miss, the American remake was just missing a certain something to be honest).

I do agree with you though: after watching so many animes AND comparing the original VAs to the American/Canadian/English VAs, for the MOST part, the original is so much better. There are a few though that stand out (and I'm sure many will disagree): the original DBZ had better English VAs (Goku had this infuriating voice in Japanese), Berserk had awesome VAs on BOTH sides, Trigun's English VA (for the main character) sounded just like his Japanese counterpart and Korean movies sound better to me in perhaps any other dubbing because the Korean language sounds strange to my ears.

I think dubs can be fun.
Depends on what's dubbed.

1970's kung fu movies come to mind. :)

Admittedly I saw Becker dubbed in two different languages and there's just no comparison to the original Ted Danson doing the talking.

I think dubs can be fun.

Depends on what's dubbed.

1970's kung fu movies come to mind. :)

Russian dubs from the same time period had two voice actors. One for all male characters, another for all female ones. Bulgarian was even worse, they had a single guy who did all voices. His 'female' voice was hilarious.

I don't think I've ever watched an anime and gone. "Yep that sounded so much better with the whiny original voice." But YMMV and that's just me. I'd rather just sit back and enjoy a movie especially Dodorro where they decided the subtitles abound be in the upset right corner in white along a white sky....

Also, people aged 40 and lower pretty much have no excuse (aside from monetary reasons) not to know at least two other languages.

Something else I'm glad you're not in charge of. I'm lucky I get by in English; I nearly flunked out of Spanish in high school. Congratulations on being skilled, I guess?

In Germany, everything is dubbed, except for some fringe artsy stuff, maybe. I always try to find the English original to watch, which can be quite difficult when there even in the biggest cities is only one cinema that offers original versions.

Being in the position to compare English and German versions, I can say that it almost always detracts from the quality of the original. The voices usually are louder and sound unnatural, because the voice actors speak usually speak in "Theater German", i.e. really articulate, and stilted. (That is, however, a widespread problem in original German movies and TV shows, too.)

Additionally, translations seem to be done in a vacuum. I guess that there is not enough time for translators to get familiar with the source material, or the German publishers can't afford better people. That leads to screw-ups for example in depicting relations between characters. It happens that lovers use the German "Sie" (second-person personal pronoun; polite) to address one another instead of "Du", which is used by persons who know one another well.

Dubbing a crime?! That is going WAY too far. Really some dubs are actually pretty good... ok many are fairly bad. It really depends on who is doing the dubbing I guess.

I speak French (barely passable) and know a smattering of words in German or Japanese. But really, language knowledge is a matter of convenience. In most of the US you need never know more than English. But knowledge of a secondary language comes in handy depending on whether or not you deal frequently with a large immigrant community or deal with tourists. I imagine this is different in Europe where there are a large number of languages in a small area.

I don't see knowing multiple languages as a, matter of convenience, but as a necessity. I'm thinking of picking up polish so that i can read the Witcher in it's original form.
There is an old serbian proverb:”You are worth as much as the amount of languages you know”.
You barely know a language? Start watching lots of movies and shows on that language. Subtitled of course. Then try reading kid's books. Then young adult books and so on..

Goody for you?

I've had enough of bragging for one day, personally, and I don't have enough invested in dealing with people's online egos to make an argument out of this or get invested enough to get angry. Thread hidden.

The thing is, anime dubs for the big name stuff (mostly ones done by Funimation) aren't any worse than the original Japanese any more anyway. Anybody that says otherwise is usually a weeaboo, a hipster, or trolling.

There are talented voice actors on both sides of the ocean.

As for the "Learn new languages lol" thing, not everybody has the time or the inclination to do so. It's doubly stupid to expect someone to learn a language just so they can watch a movie or TV show for entertainment.

Didn't know stating facts is now considered bragging.
I never said that someone should learn a language for entertainment. You learn a language to know that language. And i don't really see where you found that I said learn languages lol. I am actually horribly untalented for languages. It was an extremely painful process for me to learn English, and it took the better part of 20 years. But i did, and now i can discuss things with you fine people with not too many errors in spelling or grammar. I consider that a win. Point is everyone can learn a language at it's most rudimentary level. Then, while using it every day you learn a bit more until one day, you suddenly realize that you can speak it pretty well.

And then what happens if somebody does not, as I said, have the inclination to learn that language?

And using many languages on a daily basis like that is a rarity unless you already have a solid understanding of said language.

English is fairly simple. As are most of the romance languages, and especially in a verbal setting, but let's say you're trying to learn Russian. Over the internet.

Have fun with that.

What you've essentially said in this thread is that "Dubs are evil because I'm right. You should learn new languages because I like too. And to help force you to do so I think dubs should be banned."

Which is self-centered at the very least.

I don't see knowing multiple languages as a, matter of convenience, but as a necessity. I'm thinking of picking up polish so that i can read the Witcher in it's original form.

There is an old serbian proverb:”You are worth as much as the amount of languages you know”.
You barely know a language? Start watching lots of movies and shows on that language. Subtitled of course. Then try reading kid's books. Then young adult books and so on..

I've read the first Witcher book in German. It was atrocious. Then I looked at sample chapters of the English version. It is much better. You don't need to know Polish to enjoy the books, especially because the language allegedly is very hard to learn. (I'm not saying you shouldn't. It just might not be worth it only for reading something in Polish.)

Not harder then German, plus since my primary language is from Slavic descent, i have certain familiarity with it. Just as with Russian. Maybe that's given me a rather rare perspective. American's don't need to learn any other language (most don't even know their own very well) because the entire world panders to them. Others on the other hand are pretty much forced to learn at least one more language.
Nowadays, not knowing English and how to use computers is equated with illiteracy. And shouldn't illiteracy be removed from the world?

What you've essentially said in this thread is that "Dubs are evil because I'm right. You should learn new languages because I like too. And to help force you to do so I think dubs should be banned.

Maybe it sounds like that. I think dubs are bad because IMHO they encourage illiteracy and language ignorance (not knowing more then one language), and those two are horrible things.

I've read the first Witcher book in German. It was atrocious. Then I looked at sample chapters of the English version. It is much better. You don't need to know Polish to enjoy the books, especially because the language allegedly is very hard to learn. (I'm not saying you shouldn't. It just might not be worth it only for reading something in Polish.)

I know, there are Serbian translations of the Withcer and they are wery well done. But i make a point of trying to enjoy a book or a film or a TFV show in it's original form. To do otherwise is to me disrespectful.

Sub forever. Dub never.

And then what happens if somebody does not, as I said, have the inclination to learn that language?

And using many languages on a daily basis like that is a rarity unless you already have a solid understanding of said language.

English is fairly simple. As are most of the romance languages, and especially in a verbal setting, but let's say you're trying to learn Russian. Over the internet.

Have fun with that.

What you've essentially said in this thread is that "Dubs are evil because I'm right. You should learn new languages because I like too. And to help force you to do so I think dubs should be banned."

Which is self-centered at the very least.

English simple? It's one of the most difficult languages to learn due to constant changes and borrowing from other languages.

English simple? It's one of the most difficult languages to learn due to constant changes and borrowing from other languages.

He's talking about just learning the basics of it. Basic English is fairly simple.

Maybe it sounds like that. I think dubs are bad because IMHO they encourage illiteracy and language ignorance (not knowing more then one language), and those two are horrible things.

Or maybe, just maybe, *gasp* it lets people enjoy a piece of media in a language they're comfortable with!

Naw, couldn't be anything as simple as that.

It never is that simple.

It's always that simple.

The answer to pretty much any given thing of this nature ultimately boils down to convenience, and nothing more.

Yes, but that means that the entirety of world progress was done for achieving convenience not for already having it. By doing things for convenience's sake people limit their progress.

Watching a dubbed TV show doesn't "limit your progress". Well, not as much as wasting your time on frivolities like television is limiting your progress in any case.

You've moved on from one silly argument ("Dubs are always worse than the original!") to another ("Dubs are actively contributing to the decline of society!").

Seriously?

Maybe not in any great way, but they are. Just like other things i will not mention because i don't want the thread derailed.

Dubs are always going to be inferior to subs in my opinion. That's just me.

The thing is, anime dubs for the big name stuff (mostly ones done by Funimation) aren't any worse than the original Japanese any more anyway.

In all fairness, sometimes it's BECAUSE they do a good job is why it can end up being bad. To give an example:

The original Helsing's english cast had someone with an Irish accent do the part of an Irishman, which while fitting and appropriate....just sounded off and very annoying. The same was true of the other characters, they'd gotten them fitting VAs based on nationality (or VAs that could do great accents), but while it showed diligence on their part, it was just annoying to bear.

There are some VAs that I recognize because their voices are easy to remember. The guy who did the English version of the main character from Ergo Proxy was great for the part, but there are VAs that return to do other shows whose voices I don't enjoy hearing. With the Japanese VAs, there's only one recurring VA whose voice acting is driving me nuts, he's the same guy who does Usopp from one piece, he's done a few other animes that I tried watching...I SERIOUSLY couldn't put up with it. With recurring VAs, I feel that most of the Japanese VAs I enjoy, whereas with the American/English/Canadian recurring VAs, I could CERTAINLY name a few that I absolutely wouldn't mind hearing again.

Heck, I really liked Ah my goddess, but only in the English language. There were a few OVAs in the original Japanese with no English dubbing and I couldn't stand it.

The ONE instance of dubbing that I loathe entirely though, is when the annoying <insert expletives here>s actually GUT the script and insert their own. There was an episode of one anime I watched where a one-time appearing character was trying to exorcise some ghosts which would kill the heroes: In the ORIGINAL version, she was a ditz and had no idea she was going to kill the heroes by doing so, in the DUB, she was a malicious character who was intentionally trying to kill the main characters. I really liked the VAs who did the English dubbing, but I didn't want to watch it while they'd ruined the script.

Yeah, I hate it when they change the script too heavily (so much that it influences the plot), I agree.

Though if we're gonna talk Subs vs Dubs, and especially Irishmen for Hellsing, all I gotta say is:

"Cheezus Chwist" is this hilarious.

Though I think that's from the OVA, not the original.

There are quite a few good VAs I love hearing over and over though, either because they have an amazing vocal range even if they don't use it much (like Stephen Blum), or just usually have a voice that fits that character perfectly (Christopher R. Sabat as the manly man, Jonny Yong Bosh as the hero, Yuri Lowenthal as the smug a+#+#~#, etc.).

Yeah, I hate it when they change the script too heavily (so much that it influences the plot), I agree.

Though if we're gonna talk Subs vs Dubs, and especially Irishmen for Hellsing, all I gotta say is:

"Cheezus Chwist" is this hilarious.

Though I think that's from the OVA, not the original.

Lol, I remember that scene (it is indeed from the OVA), it was a pretty funny moment. It also reminds me of Integra Helsing's (in the OVA series, she didn't use it AS much in the original) 'sah-ch andu distwoi, sah-ch andu distwoi!' which....probably sounded a lot cooler to the Japanese folk writing it, but...sounded a bit off after a while and like she seriously needed to learn to say it in Japanese.

Admittedly I don't know the guys you've mentioned by name, I'd remember them better from their characters. I remember I thought the guy who did Goku was LEAGUES ahead of the original Japanese voice actor, the guy who did the main character in Ergo Proxy had a voice that really fit the role (it sounded contemplative, worried and evoked an image of a deep character) and the guy who did Vash brought him to life as much as the Japanese VA did. I also thought that Morgan Freeman (I think they mentioned this line in a TV show 'He's in everything!') was great as Afro samurai and I wish there were more Afro samurai stuff to watch.

Christopher R. Sabat is the guy who did Vegeta and Piccolo in DBZ, for reference.

Vash is the aforementioned Jonny Yong Bosch (other roles include Lelouch in Code Geass, Ichigo in Bleach, and many more. He got his start as the second Black Ranger in Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers)

And it was Samuel L. Jackson as Afro Samurai, not Morgan Freeman.

Haven't watched Ergo Proxy but I looked it up and Liam O'Brien is Vincent, if that's who you're talking about. I know him better as Lloyd in Code Geass and Gaara in Naruto.

Horribly evil is the f*!@er in line in front of you in the 20 items or less line with 59 items breaking out a wad of coupons.
If I'm ever king of the world, those m++@@#%$!~+#s will get a big scarlet "20" stapled on their forehead and then be flogged by twelve Juggalos wielding frozen groupers. They will have to wait in the normal line if they are just buying a Pez dispenser for their crimes.

Horribly evil is the f#$$er in line in front of you in the 20 items or less line with 59 items breaking out a wad of coupons.

If I'm ever king of the world, those m*!*#&&@%&~#s will get a big scarlet "20" stapled on their forehead and then be flogged by twelve Juggalos wielding frozen groupers. They will have to wait in the normal line if they are just buying a Pez dispenser for their crimes.

I thank the powers that be that there is no such thing as a coupon in my country.

I don't think I've ever seen a dubbed movie all the way through. I also don't intend to, so I can't judge.

Not harder then German, plus since my primary language is from Slavic descent, i have certain familiarity with it. Just as with Russian. Maybe that's given me a rather rare perspective. American's don't need to learn any other language (most don't even know their own very well) because the entire world panders to them. Others on the other hand are pretty much forced to learn at least one more language.

Nowadays, not knowing English and how to use computers is equated with illiteracy. And shouldn't illiteracy be removed from the world?

I think it does come down to perspective. Yes, US citizens don't have to learn another language than English. In fact everyone with English as their mother tongue do not have to do that. That makes them lucky.

I didn't have to learn English (or French, or Latin), I wanted to (not that I speak French or Latin). Every piece of media that makes it across the Atlantic Ocean is being dubbed or translated. If I didn't have my level of proficiency in English, I would not notice that most of them are sub-par. That is "pandering" to German, non-English speaking people, as well. It makes it easier for them to understand what is happening on screen.

I'd like to see subtitles replacing dubs, yes. But that will not happen soon. It is only a matter of time, though, since dubs are much more expensive than subtitles.

I don't know about the quality of the Serbian dubs, but I wouldn't call them "evil" in general. They are what they are. Railing against them is pretty much futile, and makes you look like an a~%%&%%. Just accept that you are not in the relevant target group anymore and move on.

I know, there are Serbian translations of the Withcer and they are wery well done. But i make a point of trying to enjoy a book or a film or a TFV show in it's original form. To do otherwise is to me disrespectful.

Disrespectful? Sorry, but that's a dumb statement. If Sapkowski thought people wouldn't respect his work when they are reading translations of his books, he wouldn't have authorised that. He wanted to have as many people as possible reading and enjoying his books. Anything else would have been snobbish as hell.

Entertainment products that can only be consumed by a few people have no value, neither artistic nor monetary.

I prefer subtitles - but dubbing isn't evil. Theft, murder, etc are evil, dubbing is just wince-worthy.

Dubbing can be well done or not. So can subtitles. I love it when the subtitles are lost against a light / dark background that matches the coloring of the letters, or when they do a bad transliteration of the original language mangling the meaning :) I am equally fond of bad dubbing or bad voice acting for that matter. Well done is acceptable. And both dubbing and subtitling can be well done.

I am a native English speaker, can manage Spanish and German if necessary. And Latin, although I doubt anyone's going to dub or subtitle in Latin :) Still overall, I prefer dubbing or subtitling in my native language.