The following discussion started as an off topic debate on another thread. The main point under debate was a combat tactic I introduced that others did not see as an accurate interpretation of the D&D Rules System.
Before I give out the specifics I’d like to preface the discussion with a little insight into our gaming group – it should add context.
There are really only two people in our regular group of six that have any interest in reading the D&D Rule Books outside of actual game days: the group’s other DM and I. So, when we play I tell my group not to worry too much about the rules and to think more about what their character would do. I simply ask them to tell me what they want to do and let me figure out the rules that apply. This has led to an “outside of the box” approach to gaming. Over time the group has learned the rules too but they don’t let the rules get in the way of how they think about their character’s actions. I try to do this myself but its hard when you think in terms of game stats as opposed to pure narrative.
In the other thread I introduced a combat tactic that is a sort of defensive “hit & run” as a way to survive combat against a Min/Maxed Combat oriented character wielding a net & trident. In the spirit of following my own advice to my players I’ll tell you what I want the defensive character to do without worrying too much about the rules.
The defendant will wield a reach weapon; let’s say it’s a long spear. The defendant isn’t a big tough guy like the trident wielding opponent so he really doesn’t want to get into melee. Fortunately, he’s got a long spear; all he wants to do is to prepare himself to attack his opponent once with the spear when he gets into range and then run away before he closes within melee range.
As a typical Canadian who’s played his fair share of street hockey I can speak with some experience when I say that it’s dead easy to whack an incoming player with your hockey stick before he gets to you and take off with the puck while he’s thinking about what just happened (I have been on the receiving end of this tactic more often than not – usually because we put the younger siblings on defense and they can’t think of a better way to stop you from reaching the net – Canadian humor, LOL). So, when it comes to gaming it makes sense to me that there should be a way to accommodate this sort of hit and run defensive tactic (you won’t win any bravery awards but sometimes its better to stay "in the game" than worry about honor).
My suggested approach was to have the defendant “Ready” a move action to “Retreat” (run away) when an opponent entered his threatened area. The opponent would provoke an attack of opportunity for moving within the defendant’s threat range (10’ with the long spear) so the defendant would get his attack of opportunity and take off before the thug could close for melee, net him and poke him mercilessly with the trident.
How would you accommodate this tactic? Or, would you? Do you agree with my approach? Disagree? I look forward to any comments.
Cheers,
C.
I'm probably not the best one to answer your query my friend since we have not been playing 3rd edition for that long (and D&D is only one of the many games my group and i play), but here goes:
In terms of what the "rules" say with regards to readying an action to run and the Attacks of Opportunity i "think" they won't allow you to make your attack and move.
As far as logic is concerned i totally agree with what you are saying (then again it may well be parhaps I am biased on this issue...since i too am Canadian and know EXACTLY what you mean with regards to your street hockey analogy LOL).
As for how i'd handle it...well there's a really good question...i think I would allow it (since logic is what i try and rely on to supplement my lack of complete rule memorization...and in some cases override rules that don't make sense to me)..but I would also discuss it with my group to see how they felt about it...always keeping in mind that applying ANY rule or rule modification consistently makes the rules fair (ie they and npcs can do exactly the same thing to each other).
Hope that in some way helped...but i too am anxious to see what some of the people with greater understanding of the rules than myself have to say about it.
Good post though Cernunos.
Sounds like a fine tactic that I can appreciate. It's also well within the rules.
However, I would probably go with a reach weapon that also allows AOO's against adjacent foes as well, which a long spear does not. The spiked chain is my favorite.
I like the idea of characters doing what they think is right rather thtan focusing on game math - and weapons that happen to have stats that happen to be poorly balanced.
As others have said though if a tactic works it has to work for the bad guys as well. Range and movement are a classic tactic, in the ring, on the battlefield, etc. Skillful application of this concept should IMO be advocated and rewarded.
IMO opinion spiked chain is a weapon that should - well not exist - I have read a lot of folklore, trained as a martial artist, and even spent some time as a soldier - and I have never even seen a spiked chain - plenty of exotic weapons - no spikes. No spiked armor either for that matter. Conventional chain okay I see that, but it is more of an improvisational weapon - there is a reason swords and maces are the weapons of choice (under different names with different variations based on culture available, materials, current tactics, etc) but swords and maces none the less.
Well, I would argue that there are a lot of things in D&D combat that wouldn't wash in the real world, so sometimes, you have to roll with it or just not use it in your own game. I'm not entirely convinced that orc double axes would actually be effective double weapons in real life either, but hey, describing them makes them sound intimidating.
Well, I would argue that there are a lot of things in D&D combat that wouldn't wash in the real world, so sometimes, you have to roll with it or just not use it in your own game. I'm not entirely convinced that orc double axes would actually be effective double weapons in real life either, but hey, describing them makes them sound intimidating.
No argument, and I don't. The recommendation just seemed outide of the spirit of the post to direct people to a purely fantasy weapon when they were striving for more verisimilitude in their play. Fantasy is part of play, my reply was not meant as a bash - but to align thiings more with what in my opinion was the original question asked.
No offense was intended.
I would rule as follows
The defending character is not readying an action he is delaying his turn so that it occures in the middle of the attackers turn. Since this requires a bit of timing on the defenders part I would make them roll opposed initiative checks.
If the defendant wins he gets his attack and move action as he planned. (side not since he is no longer readying an action he would not get to set his polearm for a charge, just a poke and flee). If the fighter wins he crashes into the defender just as he planned and the polearm weilders turn will come directly after this.
Hope that gells with your hockey experiance.
SG
As far as logic is concerned i totally agree with what you are saying (then again it may well be parhaps I am biased on this issue...since i too am Canadian and know EXACTLY what you mean with regards to your street hockey analogy LOL).
And seasonally appropriate too! Ah, another season of having your shins whacked by CCM wielding midget slashers ;-)
I would probably go with a reach weapon that also allows AOO's against adjacent foes as well, which a long spear does not. The spiked chain is my favorite.
You're inspiring the power gamer within. Imagine, a monk with a high dexterity, combat reflexes and a spiked chain. A good tumble skill and the use of the total defence maneuver combined this thread's defensive hit and run tactic and we've got the makings of a critical threat for good'ol Dungeon Mag.
The defending character is not readying an action he is delaying his turn so that it occures in the middle of the attackers turn. Since this requires a bit of timing on the defenders part I would make them roll opposed initiative checks.
If the defendant wins he gets his attack and move action as he planned. (side not since he is no longer readying an action he would not get to set his polearm for a charge, just a poke and flee). If the fighter wins he crashes into the defender just as he planned and the polearm weilders turn will come directly after this.
Hope that gells with your hockey experiance.
What ever happened to the "Delay" rule in v.3.5? Is it just considered common sense for someone to delay thier initiative if they want to? The "Ready" action is such as stuffy rule its almost not worth the bother. People get all wierd about it and the AoO rule that'd I'd much rather take SG's advice and work the tactic into the defendant's regular turn if it makes people happy. I still think my idea should work from my own review of the rules but I'm all about compromise if it works better for others.
Cheers,
C.
What ever happened to the "Delay" rule in v.3.5? Is it just considered common sense for someone to delay thier initiative if they want to? The "Ready" action is such as stuffy rule its almost not worth the bother. People get all wierd about it and the AoO rule that'd I'd much rather take SG's advice and work the tactic into the defendant's regular turn if it makes people happy. I still think my idea should work from my own review of the rules but I'm all about compromise if it works better for others....
The delay rule in 3.5e states that you voluntarily reduce your own intiative result for the rest of the combat.
Later it states:"You can't, however, interrupt anyone else's action (as you can with a readied action)"
If you are waiting for the net guy to attack you, you should be using the readied action in 3.5e; even though some people may not like the idea of a readied standard action it is quite useful. Just ready a trip attack. Trip them and then keep hitting them if they try to stand up or crawl away.
If you want true 'hit and run' you need to use the spring attack feat.
The idea of attacking someone when they enter a threatened square used to be possible in 3.0e with the 'large and in charge' feat. I believe that the effects of this feat have been replicated somewhere else under a different name (maybe a Dragon Magazine). Normally you can only get an AoO when an opponent leaves a threatened square.
To sum up: Readying an action gets you the first half of the equation by allowing the attack when an opponent enters your square and before he attacks you, but it does not allow a move action to run away. Unless your DM allows you to 5-foot step away (a free action on your initiative if you don't move). However, 5-foot step just means the net guy has to move another 5 feet to attack you. But then you get another AoO because a net is a ranged attack and provokes AoO. So if you had combat reflexes and Dex 14 you would get 2 attacks before the net attacks.
Delaying is no good as you have to delay to a discrete, predetermined initiative and does not allow you to interupt a charge or attack.
As for generating some sort of feat to accomplish this, maybe: Fluid evasion:
Preq: dodge, mobility, spring attack (?), combat reflexes, hold the line (?), reach weapon
Desc: when you ready an attack with a reach wepaon vs a charging opponent you gain an attack of oppurtunity as they enter your threatened squares (dealing double damage if the reach weapon is a spear or similar weapon) and then you may choose to move out of the path of the charging opponent (provoking attacks of oppurtunity as normal).
Any thoughts?
To sum up: Readying an action gets you the first half of the equation by allowing the attack when an opponent enters your square and before he attacks you, but it does not allow a move action to run away. Unless your DM allows you to 5-foot step away (a free action on your initiative if you don't move).
As I understand it, you would ready an action to "run away" when the other guy moved adjacent to your PC. The AoO comes automatically when he leaves the first square threatened by your longspear. He then completes his move, coming adjacent to your PC, and you run away. As far as Cernunos' original post, this is an excellent tactic for melee combat, akin to what fencers and swordsmen call a 'stop thrust,' but it ignores the fact (as mentioned by ignimbrite78) that the net is a ranged weapon, and the trident-wielder can use it from 10 feet away. Using it at this distance would still provoke an AoO, but wouldn't fulfill the requirements for you spearman's readied action(s).
My suggested approach was to have the defendant “Ready” a move action to “Retreat” (run away) when an opponent entered his threatened area. The opponent would provoke an attack of opportunity for moving within the defendant’s threat range (10’ with the long spear) so the defendant would get his attack of opportunity and take off before the thug could close for melee, net him and poke him mercilessly with the trident.
How would you accommodate this tactic? Or, would you? Do you agree with my approach? Disagree? I look forward to any comments.
The tactic is perfectly valid and book-legal, with one change: your Readied action will have to be triggered by something that happens after your attack of opportunity is resolved. As you have it now, you will move away as soon as the opponent enters your threatened square; since he won't provoke the AoO until he moves out of that square, you'll want to make your trigger something like: "I Ready to Move if an enemy enters a square adjacent to me."
Also, just be aware that calling it a "Retreat" doesn't make it a Withdraw action; it's still a Move, and if there is someone threatening you when you start moving, they'll get an AoO on you.
Amal Ulric and Vegepygmy - yes, you can see where I'm coming from. The logical breakdown of the event and the rules associated with it follows my own reasoning with additional insight from both of you. Your critique is much appreciated; thanks.
The delay rule in 3.5e states that you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat... … If you are waiting for the net guy to attack you, you should be using the readied action in 3.5e; even though some people may not like the idea of a readied standard action it is quite useful.
Agreed. Where are you finding text in the PHB on “Delay”? I don’t have the PHB available at the moment but I do recall making a search for something on the “Delay” option and not finding anything in v.3.5. Am I just blind?
If you want true 'hit and run' you need to use the spring attack feat.
True; however, it does nothing for you as a defensive hit & run tactic. I think the Combat Reflexes Feat, Tumble Skill and the Total Defence option would work better. I like the Spring Attack as an offensive option too but found that it still left your character vulnerable on the opponent’s turn unless your character could use his move to reach some kind of safe area. The Duellist is a good class for this if you can find some rough terrain to fight in.
Cheers,
C.
Agreed. Where are you finding text in the PHB on “Delay”? I don’t have the PHB available at the moment but I do recall making a search for something on the “Delay” option and not finding anything in v.3.5. Am I just blind?
Delay and ready actions are at the end of the combat section in PHB, page 160.
somewhat edited: The defender will wield a reach weapon; let’s say it’s a long spear. The defender isn’t a big tough guy like the trident wielding opponent so he really doesn’t want to get into melee. Fortunately, he’s got a long spear; all he wants to do is to prepare himself to attack his opponent once with the spear when he gets into range and then run away before he closes within melee range.
You don't get an AoO when an opponent enters a threatened square, you get it when he leaves one. When he moves into the square 10 ft away you can't hit him -- as he moves out of that square (and is now adjacent to you) you can make your AoO. At this point, the only way you can retreat without provoking an AoO yourself is to make a 5-ft step (not really accomplishing what you want) or withdrawing, which is a full-round action and thus cannot be readied.
I think this is right -- have I missed something?
BTW I think the hockey example isn't analogous; the hockey player is trying to get the puck, not you, and is thus more vulnerable to such a tactic. I doubt he'd let you take a free whack if his purpose was to whack you.
Regards,
Jack
You don't get an AoO when an opponent enters a threatened square, you get it when he leaves one. When he moves into the square 10 ft away you can't hit him -- as he moves out of that square (and is now adjacent to you) you can make your AoO. At this point, the only way you can retreat without provoking an AoO yourself is to make a 5-ft step (not really accomplishing what you want) or withdrawing, which is a full-round action and thus cannot be readied.
I think this is right -- have I missed something?
Yes. What you're missing is that attacks of opportunity are resolved before the events that trigger them, as are Readied actions.
So what happens is the opponent begins to leave the threatened square, gets hit with the AoO while still in that square, then continues on into the square adjacent to the longspear-wielder (L-W). Likewise, the L-W's Readied action is triggered when the opponent begins to enter the adjacent square, but before he actually does so; thus, the opponent does not threaten the L-W (since he is not yet in the adjacent square) when the L-W begins Moving away, and therefore gets no AoO on the L-W.
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Yes. What you're missing is that attacks of opportunity are resolved before the events that trigger them, as are Readied actions.So what happens is the opponent begins to leave the threatened square, gets hit with the AoO while still in that square, then continues on into the square adjacent to the longspear-wielder (L-W). Likewise, the L-W's Readied action is triggered when the opponent begins to enter the adjacent square, but before he actually does so; thus, the opponent does not threaten the L-W (since he is not yet in the adjacent square) when the L-W begins Moving away, and therefore gets no AoO on the L-W.
My first reaction was to think that this tactic would make characters with reach weapons, who are able to move, virtually un hittable by those without reach. There would have to be a countermove, and I guess that could be a disarm attempt or something along those lines.
I need to think more about this, but I would be inclined to disallow this for fear of it being unbalanced. I don't mind the initial AoO, but being able to move without any repercussions. Think of all the critters with reach.
On the other hand, this could make enlarge a popular spell again.
...I think this is right -- have I missed something?
Yes. What you're missing is that attacks of opportunity are resolved before the events that trigger them, as are Readied actions...
Oh, yeah. Thanks :)
My first reaction was to think that this tactic would make characters with reach weapons, who are able to move, virtually un hittable by those without reach.
It really doesn't, for the simple reason that only in rare situations can the reach-fighter continue moving away round after round after round. Also, he has to have a higher Speed than his pursuer, or else the pursuer will quickly close the gap anyway. Since the reach-fighter only gets one AoO (even with Combat Reflexes) no matter how many threatened squares the pursuer moves through, a crafty pursuer will just suck up the single AoO and then make sure he does something to prevent the reach-fighter from moving away -- like Grappling him, or Tripping him, or...
Try it out in actual game-play and I'm sure you'll find it's not unbalanced. It's just the (rightful) advantage a reach weapon should provide in certain circumstances.
My first reaction was to think that this tactic would make characters with reach weapons, who are able to move, virtually un hittable by those without reach.
I need to think more about this, but I would be inclined to disallow this for fear of it being unbalanced. I don't mind the initial AoO, but being able to move without any repercussions. Think of all the critters with reach.It really doesn't, for the simple reason that only in rare situations can the reach-fighter continue moving away round after round after round. Also, he has to have a higher Speed than his pursuer, or else the pursuer will quickly close the gap anyway. Since the reach-fighter only gets one AoO (even with Combat Reflexes) no matter how many threatened squares the pursuer moves through, a crafty pursuer will just suck up the single AoO and then make sure he does something to prevent the reach-fighter from moving away -- like Grappling him, or Tripping him, or...
Vegepygmy your assumtion is only correct if the base speeds are similar. Avemar is correct, IMO, to be leary of this; imagine a frost giant with a spiked chain or similar reach weapon ... AoO (15 foot reach) and move away at 40 feet, meaning it would be 50 feet from the opponent requiring a charge to reach, that is some scary stuff.
IMO I would rule that a readied action takes place prior to AoO as it actually changes your initiative to above that of the opponent, therefore the opponent never starts the action that would provoke the AoO.
Anyway, the previous couple of posts are sidelining the original parameter of the 10 foot ranged net attack, which is subsequently followed up by an attack with a trident.
And does anyone have thoughts on the feat I suggested previously? It has some steep requirements and is fairly situation specific...
It really doesn't, for the simple reason that only in rare situations can the reach-fighter continue moving away round after round after round. Also, he has to have a higher Speed than his pursuer, or else the pursuer will quickly close the gap anyway. Since the reach-fighter only gets one AoO (even with Combat Reflexes) no matter how many threatened squares the pursuer moves through, a crafty pursuer will just suck up the single AoO and then make sure he does something to prevent the reach-fighter from moving away -- like Grappling him, or Tripping him, or...
Wait, wait. I thought that the readied action would allow the reach weapon-weilder to move away as soon as the opponent entered a threatened square, meaning that he/she would escape regardless of the distance the opponent moved.
Edit: Never mind, I just realized that the opponent could continue moving after the AoO, thus closing the distance.
And does anyone have thoughts on the feat I suggested previously? It has some steep requirements and is fairly situation specific...
Well, 'Hold the Line' (Complete Warrior p.100) already allows you to make an AoO on an opponent that enters a square you threaten, as opposed to the standard rules where the opponent has to leave a square you threaten. Wouldn't you be able to accomplish the same thing as your feat by readying a move action triggered by an attacker moving adjacent to you? Your AoO is a freebie given by your Hold the Line feat, and the PHB (p.160) says that "[the readied] action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character." Thus, you get your AoO, the your move is triggered, and you move away before the opponent can attack, though you may also draw an AoO. Tumbling is a part of movement (PHB, p.84) and can be used as part of you move action to prevent an AoO, but you have to be pretty good at it to move at any sort of useful speed. Your proposed feat is not without merit, but to have such steep prerequisites, I would expect a bigger, and more general benefit. Maybe instead you could incorporate it into a new Tactical feat? I could see that...
Wouldn't you be able to accomplish the same thing as your feat by readying a move action triggered by an attacker moving adjacent to you? Your AoO is a freebie given by your Hold the Line feat, and the PHB (p.160) says that "[the readied] action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character." Thus, you get your AoO, the your move is triggered, and you move away before the opponent can attack, though you may also draw an AoO.
Mmmmm yes but I suppose it depends what your readied action is. 'I will move away if the opponent leaves a threatened square to enter a threatened square', i.e. he moves through the threat range of a reach weapon. IMO this means that you interrupt the opponent prior to them entering the second threatened square and, therefore, prior to them incurring the AoO from leaving the first threatened square (if you have the reach weapon). So you achieve a '_ & run' tactic.
Wow, this is getting more complicated than I think it needs to be. Amal Ulric and Vegepygmy summarized the tactic quite well. I don't think its an unbalanced tactic. First of all, no one is forcing an opponent to engage in melee with the long spear wielder (LSW). He can be shot at with ranged weapons quite effectively. Also, as someone else mentioned, attackers can tumble to avoid the AoO or fight back with another reach weapon. If a chase ensues this tactic is only as advantageous as space allows. In a dungeon the LSW is eventually going to run into a wall and will have to turn around and run back through the attackers space (triggering an AoO against himself).
It's funny what a little question can stir up. I really only see this as a surprise tactic that will buy a defender a round or two of grace against muscled melee types. It's certainly not going to be a panacea tactic for the avoidance of all harm. It might make your Min/Max PC's think twice about town guards though.
Cheers,
C.
The defendant will wield a reach weapon; let�s say it�s a long spear. The defendant isn�t a big tough guy like the trident wielding opponent so he really doesn�t want to get into melee. Fortunately, he�s got a long spear; all he wants to do is to prepare himself to attack his opponent once with the spear when he gets into range and then run away before he closes within melee range.
In real life, this tactic does not work. "Engaging lightly", as it is called, is a good way to die more slowly, but not to live. In practical terms, a line of spearmen being attacked by soldiers with swords get the opportunity to hit them as they press, but once that initial "attack of opportunity" is had the swordsmen pretty much have free reign unless the spearmen pull short swords. Typically, lightly engaging is at best a stall tactic while you hope for reinforcements, not an effective strategy for overcoming a superior force.
In real life, this tactic does not work.
It doesn't work much better in the game. :)
Let's see...
0) you "ready an action" to move away if an enemy gets to an adjacent square
1) enemy approaches.
2) at ten feet away, the enemy has entered a threatened square.
3) since the enemy has a non-reach weapon, they continue to close.
4) as they attempt to leave the threatened square, you get an attack of opportunity.
5) Assuming you didn't kill the enemy, they enter an adjacent square, which is the trigger for your readied action.
6) You interupt their turn and move away.
I agree with Cernunos and others that it is neither against the rules, nor unbalanced.
The cost is pretty high. The character can do nothing else but wait for someone to approach. With each round, the character either slips in the initiative order or has completely wasted a round.
Delay and ready actions are at the end of the combat section in PHB, page 160.
DOH! Yep, I'm officially blind. I've looked at that page about 5 times in the past 2 days - there it is in black and white (and blue, beige and rust, etc..). I'll just go creep into a corner now.
Cheers,
C.
Typically, lightly engaging is at best a stall tactic while you hope for reinforcements, not an effective strategy for overcoming a superior force.
The cost is pretty high. The character can do nothing else but wait for someone to approach. With each round, the character either slips in the initiative order or has completely wasted a round.
Absolutely! I've never been the advocate of the tactic's omnipotence. I thought it up as a tactic to thwart, however temporarily, the one round kill tactics of the net wielder thug. I thought it might keep your average fella in the game a little longer; but ya, when confronted with the tactic it's not hard to adapt to it and overcome. That's what makes combat interesting in my opinion: develop tactics, use them, adapt, change tactics and so on. Much better than two guys standing there trading blows in a battle of attrition where the combatant with the highest hit points wins.
Cheers,
C.
I agree that what has evolved here is an excellent stop-gap measure against someone attacking you if they do not have a reach weapon, however ....
I thought it up as a tactic to thwart, however temporarily, the one round kill tactics of the net wielder thug.
With the net wielder thug it is slightly different as they have ranged reach of 10 feet. It would be analogous to a thug with a spiked chain running up to a long spear wielder (LSW).
Can anyone think of a way to get the initial attack (AoO) as the thug is moving in (into the first threatened square) and still have actions left over to move away before the thug can attack (without using the madeup feat I suggested earlier)?