superfly2000's page

Well....I've said before...even if it was a long time ago...

For me personally if this is again some kind of meta-"third person" view I'll stay well clear of it.

99% of all MMO's have the WoW-style so called "third person view" which is actually almost like first person view only it is behind the shoulder...and you can zoom out.

Like I said before I'd like isometric view to be standard (and the game designed around that!). I know however that this is probably wishfull thinking as I think remember seeing a short video where the typical MMO graphics engine was displayed.

I hope some developer in the future finally looks to epic old games like Neverwinter Nights 1 and makes a proper isometric MMORPG instead of all crap we have to choose from nowdays.

Not to talk about all the action elements put into RPG's today it is more like an FPS...or maybe I'm just too old...

Anyway...if it is more like I said it would also be a lot closer to pen and paper feeling...

Nonsense! All MMO's are WoW clones! Who cares if they possess fundamentally different mechanics! It is a fantasy game in a persistent online universe, which, of course, makes it identical to WoW.

/sarcasm

Even though you where sarcastic here I can't help myself by reading a lot of truth into what you are saying.

90% of the MMORPG's we have today are unfortunately WoW-clones.

It has gone so far as typical MMORPG gamers even condeming a game straight out if its not similar to WoW. Saying it is not an MMO and whatnot...

...but then ofcourse stating that each and every game isn't a WoW-clone because there are miniscule changes.

I mean most SWToR players probably won't acknowledge that they are playing a WoW clone but lets face it...they are...

Personally I think too much/full-out PvP has no place in a somewhat true to the game mechanics RP game but that might be just me.

I wrote a long essay about it and how a limited version of PvP could be incorporated into the game in another topic so I wont write more here...

Without reading the whole post I'd just like to say that auction houses that don't make sense (like server wide) suck...

Seconded, in many games grinding is reffering to repeating the same quest over and over again,...

I know what you and Nihimon mean but I you don't understand me.

I meant that my FEARS are when people are talking about "grinding" is that they basically want to be top level right away with all the bell and whistles. Concentrating on the fun all the time and wanting to hang the developer if the game isn't "fun" every second of the way...

I mean...try to make a game yourself and maybe you'll see what I mean...(?). Even if its not 10.000 boars...you can't come up with 10.000 different races...so it will have to be 100 boars at least...capiche?

...and now some might feel killing thoose 100 boars is "grinding"...which is what I meant.

Its like when watching a movie...just because you had one second during the movie where you didn't enjoy yourself doesn't mean you can hang the producer or not pay the ticket...can you dig it?

BESIDES the fact that D&D always has been and always will be to a big part about progression. So to make you feel you are really progressing the game has to make you feel quite small from the start. Otherwise the satisfying feeling when you get better wont be there right.

BESIDES #2 is that grinding and leveling, even as per Nihimons defintion, are really hard to to distinguish between at times. You really can't draw a line and say all on that side is grinding and everything on the other side is leveling...can you...

Meophist....that is a text adventure game. Albeit it can still be good for it is but I personally think computer games have come further...if not too far lately...

Nihimon, this view, that you don't want to "grind" doesn't belong in a D&D world which has ALWAYS been about "grinding" up levels. I know it can feel frustrating that you actually have to work for something (another word for grinding more or less) but I think it belongs here.

Otherwise youre getting closer to FPS games again...

...which can be good in itself...but hopefully not here...

The only thing I can agree to is that the "grinding" shouldn't be too monotonius...

Yeah lol...kids theese days :-P

It was actually pretty big at its time which was like 2-4 years before WoW even.

Still 12 years after its release community members are "patching" it and creating multiplayer worlds...as well as playing on them of course...

wouldnt even know how to turn a single player game into multiplayer(nwn)

What do you mean?

NWN is both single player AND multiplayer if its that you're refering to...

Valkenr,
is your last post a reply to mine?

I've stayed away from the numerous PvP threads but I'm going to throw in my two coppers this time. Although probably from a different perspective than most.

Like I have said numerous times before I'd like this game to at least try and capture some of the pen and paper atmoshpere.

One thing typical about pen and paper games is that you don't have the players killing each other. Sure...it could happen...but it is usually the result of a long and ardous dispute between two members or some other kind of heavy roleplaying event.

So...my thoughts go like this. I don't want to throw PvP totally out the window because combat (and other) vs another human mind can certainly be entertaining.

I have seen many attempts at full PvP and the results where not so good. You momentarily got a bunch of kids who started bullying other weaker group of kids...or something like that. It was again a Neverwinter Nights persistent world server and it was about players playing as drow and starting in the underdark slowly working their way up to the ground and attacking the towns there.

Sure, in the case of the drows it makes sense cause they have like their own society and stuff...but I mean how do you roleplay and orc? I mean who wants to spend their whole gaming life roleplaying an orc?

So...my suggestion is this..although far fetched. Let most monsters use advanced AI while the most intelligent monsters be controlled by semi-payed professionals (DM's). Even high ranked players could be 'invited' to play monsters for a short period of time and being payed by for example given the ability to progress further or making their player character more powerful.

Just brainstorming a bit here but hope it was useful to someone...

Pyronous Rath wrote:

DDO best fantasy mmo combat. If you don't know that you haven't tryd it.

So true, head and shoulders above WOW type games. Was soooooo disappointed in SWTOR combat.

I don't know how you actually see some difference in the combat between theese games (DDO, WoW and SWToR) because I don't....

They are all very alike to me...

I guess none of you people have played Neverwinter Nights 1 on online multiplayer worlds? It is a game that actually uses the D&D system and has come a long way of being a compromise between MMO and PnP...still the best if you ask me...

'Proven playability' .... gimme a break...

Still you are all talking about a total WoW-clone and even more horrible actiony game than WoW...at least Saga of Ryzom smells that for a long way for me...

Ok...didn't notice that...but that is not really a big difference.

I'm glad you don't want them to make another WoW/Traditional MMO-clone-thing.....

6) Combat - A mix of traditional MMO (EQ/WOW) and Action or Positional Styles (SWTOR/DAOC)...

Most of what you wrote made sense but did you just say 'Lets make a traditional MMO' here? Don't we have enough of thoose already?

For your information the combat, as well as almost anything else, doesn't differ between WoW and SWToR.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This game doesn't have to be like every other MMO out there and one thing that seems almost religious about MMO's is that they all have cooldowns.

Why not use a system of resting (just like in Neverwinter Nights). This effectively slow down gameplay also and forces more interaction between players in the group.

Besides being much closer to the core rules which I hope is what we all want right? Cause this is still a pathfinder/D&D MMO we are talking about. Making another MMO is according to me not just slapping on different looking characters and enironment saying its now an 'X' MMO. (Like Star Wars and Warcraft where the only difference is just that.)

Now to slightly stray off-topic a bit:

All MMO's for some reason put most of their focus on the first 'M' in MMO instead of the second. We must not forget 'Multiplayer' is still in the equation. Especially for a wannabe D&D game this is extra important. Lets remember people...we want to get closer to pen and paper D&D, not WoW.

To get back more on topic:

Using some kind of Diablo-like (with meters for mana and hp) system is even worse and will just make this game fall into the actionRPG pitfall that all RPG games today seem to fall into.

The ingredient method is slightly better...but then again...this is not Ultima they are making here....

2. make a skill based game where levels are not as important as how many skills you have.

You mean to deviate far from what D&D is?

4. please no tab target with auto hit on abilities and spells. for some inspiration on how to do combat right take a look at asherons call combat. you can dodge spells in that game if you do it right or arrows and you have to be close to a target to hit it with a melee weapon. please bring that back to the mmo genre where pvp requires some player skill and not just character stats.

You mean to make PFO just another MMO like numerous others? That is WoW clones with the ability too duck away from blows and whatnot...that is bringing action elements into RPG...which is VERY common in MMO's theese days and you really don

maybe ultima online which i never did get a chance to play.

You can still play UO...but its still too much PvP/sandbox and it still looks like crap.

All thoose are single player RPG's....

Probably great games...but they don't interest me...also someone truly interested in a MP RPG shouldn't either...(take it the right way please...and feel free to comment).

By the way...I know what you mean...you want more story and roleplay. It can be done but I think the game has to have focus more on the multiplayer part than just being massive...

@Nihimon - you're right.

Also, the HeroEngine that is in Star Wars was so heavily modded by Bioware that it is now incompatible with the HeroEngine code distributed to new users.

I'm not a super technical guy but Biowares end result is a total WoW-and-clones-rip-off....

And again, like I might have said...the more we look at existing engines the more we can expect to fall in the pitfall of making just another generic MMO...

I, too, prefer a regular CRPG.

Got any examples of games that you like?

This is a quite common discussion on Neverwinter Nights persistent world server as well.

Personally I think both the powergamers and roleplayers can live side by side with some respect to each other and also game design that caters to both.

Lets face it. To some extent we are all powergamers anyway.

NWN uses the exact same type of hotbar for actions as well. It also uses the "right click on target to get list of actions" thing that EVE uses.

I think I know what you mean but you can't say NWN uses the EXACT same type of hotbar.

About the right klick...yeah that is kind of similar to EVE and probably one of few similarities as EVE is not an RPG.

You know...even windows standard behaviour is that you get properties when you right klick something....so kind of makes sense....

InVinoVeritas,
what games do you usually play?

Kryzbyn,
...if thoose are your only demands on a new game you really won't have problems finding one...

I kind of agree with all your wantings except 1)....

.............The Temple of Elemental Evil.........
Have you played the game?

No...but I know its single player which is what I said.

This sounds like it came from someone who's never actually played WoW or SWTOR,

I have to shamefully admit to wasting about 3-4 days of my life on each of them...

...at least it wasn't 3-4 years like most :-o

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to bash WoW or the players there of. If you like WoW...thats great for you. Many do.... For me it just isn't my game...

Gorbacz,
As you said, EVE is definately not a WoW clone but EVE is very far from an RPG also...and we should really stop making parallells between EVE and PFO. Maybe some sandbox logics....some economics thinking...but thats it...

Kryzbyn,
umm you asking me what makes WoW successful? I couldn't care less really but I think its the ability to play single player, cartoony graphics and world/lore as well as well as a way to simple game system.

As I've said many times before: If you want a WoW-clone...sure...go ahead...you will probably get it from PFO anyway...

I'm just standing here in the corner waving a fading flag...

I didn't say contrary...

"Take what is successful" .... hasn't this been done enough already?

Heed my words...there will be one day when a WoW-clone doesn't make money...hopefully soon....

SWToR kind of proves me wrong...but there will be one day...

I started playing World of Tanks (WoT) a few days ago and have to say its kind of refreshing even though simple.

Maybe the multiplayer part is a little too less but its there still.

At least I hope people wont rage about WoT saying its not an MMO...like some are against NWN...

I'm not saying WoT has anything of interest for PFO....I'm just saying its a cool game and its kind of "out of the box thinking" that made it...

Thats why I don't play Skyrim...

...aside from not playing single player games at all...

Tired of consoly games calling themselves RPG's...

Nobody is asking for the Labours of Hercules here. We're asking for gameplay a notch or three above what current MMOs serve us.

I get your point but your phrasing turns me off a little.

I am asking for gameplay that has very little in common with MMO's of today.

No notch up or down. Just different.

(I didn't say indie...but we're getting warmer now...)

For me it feels like the developers of standard MMO's are constantly bombarded from users who cry out when they have made a PC build choice that isn't good.

For some reason the developers are then forced to streamline everything so that you can't go wrong...then just to make everyone happy they also have to erase every difference that the classes had...or heck...lets just make one class to rule them all...

For me D&D is too make your choices and then stand for them...be it good or bad...we don't play a bard to be good in battle...we do it because we want to be cool...

The Temple of Elemental Evil is the only reasonably satisfactory implementation of D&D mechanics into a computer game that I have experienced and its fairly clear that adapting that style of play to an MMO would be disastrously bad.

Firstly Temple of Evil seems to be very far from a D&D PnP experience. It doesn't even have multiplayer which must be an important factor if you want to make D&D into a computer game.

Also I don't know why you are racking single player game after single player game saying that was good and that was good...like it mattered.

I know most play WoW and SWToR cause of the SP experience and don't give a s%*% about other players other than an occasional "i'm better than you cause I'm higher level"...but I think its pathetic what MMO's have become...

hmarcbower, yes I think you got it right. Just also remember that the aim is not to use the rules EXACTLY but at least TRY to...(get as far as possible that is...)

Its not a "problem" to go "against" WoW and its clones.

In fact it is still probably a safe way because there are so many players that there will always be some who will be fooled by a new game. There will be some minor changes to their gameplay and they will instantly feel that is refreshing...

I was hoping PFO would go a radically different path from most standard MMO's...but judging from developers statements and also the overhelming amount of standard MMO players on this forum says pretty much...

At first I thought this thread was about not making a WoW-clone.

Reading it I feel kind of lured into it though...

The hit points and AC are there but they are not used like they are supposed to. I mean if you manage to roll away from an enemy is more linked to how fast you can tap that button. Rest doesn't work like its supposed to. Most skills/abilites seem to "recharge" real fast in combat which has a lot more to do with WoW than D&D 3.X.

Hence as the rules of the game is not followed at all things like classes and races are just their for show.

Sure, locations, but I mean that is such lore that you can just apply to any game. Just cause you say the game is in a certain location doesn't mean its a D&D game...

Deties...oh yeah...I'm sure DDO is full of moments where you get to roleplay your deity and that the deity makes a big difference for classes....not!

No matter what is written or said DDO is a game that is totally un-interesting for me. If you really think DDO is that good why don't you go there and play that instead?

In my eyes DDO is a WoW-clone. It is even more actiony.

Theese kind of games are not good at all for D&D...

I mean lets face it...the only thing D&D in that game are some names on monsters and things like that...

Like someone said I really hope the developers think REALLY out of the box on this one.

About the sandbox thing...just because the developers said they where going to make a sandboxy game doesn't mean this is going to be Minecraft D&D...

Valkaern,
very well said. I have to agree with almost everything you said.

Only we need to tone down the extent of the open ended game. In a game where everyone can't be the hero the game is inheritly not fully open ended....lets say open ended within boundaries...

About the Goblinworks blogpost....it doesn't really say much....

“lessons learned from other games”

The best would be to not look at the MMO games at the market at all. Instead look at older multiplayer RPG's...

At least that what I would want...

Not sure what you mean Klaus.....

The problem with that is that the OGL has become the building blocks of the Pathfinder system... to remove the 'D&D branding' as you've put it means revising the entire system from the ground-up.

Using self made D&D:ish rules was not my main question there. It was more of a side-step...and not solely pertaining to the PFO project but any possible upcoming MMO projects.

I think it's important to note that because the mechanics aren't the same, doesn't mean it need not necessarily feel like Pathfinder.

Mmyea...but haven't we seen enough of games who take the OGL too lightly?

I am a little disappointed to find out that OGL can't really legally be used in MMOs...

Where did you find information saying that?

I really hope that is not the case but I wouldn't be surprised...

...that would mean everything working against this game being more D&D:ish and just promoting the thought of making it another actiony buttonmasher...

As if the marketforces where not enough...

Perhaps its time to drop the D&D brand...like Bioware did with Dragon Age...

D20 mechanics were built for a turn based war game, not real time combat.

Ok, lets take a minute to think about what you said here because I do not agree.

Sure, the "turns" have to be timelimited somehow...but there is no sense in dropping all the rules everytime you're gonna make an MMO (like usually).

There are enough games already that don't give a blast about the rules of the game they are using...

Most importantly this kind of game needs to be designed around giving the player time to interact, roleplay and do somewhat tactical combat...at least thats what I think.

Does it have to be all or nothing? Bear with me for a minute.

It seems to me that the vast majority of the classes, their abilities, the feats, skills, etc could be translated by exchanging every instance of "round" with "x seconds" to allow for some sort of system to normalize them.

Yes and like I said (maybe too many times) that is how the Neverwinter Nights games work...

Umm, what are saying Scott?

What game is it that you want Paizo to stop?

The right method to go about when making a game is to focus on your own stuff and what you're doing. I don't think there are any specifically severe legal issues pertaining to making a turn-based game or an NWN-esque game.

NWN has as little rights over what games mimic them as WoW. Besides...NWN is an SP game with MP so there IS a long road to walk to only multiplayer...and in my eyes....a good one....

The way they are marketing the game it will be a WoW-clone with slightly more freedom and some Pathfinder lore :-o

The amount of NWN-clones out there are none...and again...i never said NWN-clone...i just said...look at how NWN PW's work....

...well, maybe NWN2 is an "NWN-clone" but it was worse than the first one in my oppinion...and even less aimed at multiplayer unfortunately.

I think we got your "NWN was the only true MMO out there,...

Yeah and I got all yours "We want another WoW-clone MMO".

Whatever, knock yourselves out...congratulations on yet another stereotypical MMO...

...and its funny....cause you actually made a couple of posts that sounded good to me...

But what about the people that are both fans of P&P AND MMORPGs ?

Thoose people are first fans of MMO's and second fans of P&P.

....OR they think as soon as you turn something into a computer game it HAS to be a shooter....but while doing P&P its totally ok to play it all "the boring way".

The Brutal Truth(tm) might be that Pathfinder Online's primary target demographic are MMO fans, with diehard Golarion pen-n-paper players being the secondary one.

Which would make a lot of sense, in the grand scheme of things.

I am fearing this also.

And no...it doesn't make sense for me...