Goblin Squad Member
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I kinda like the idea of a pseudo-round type system. So for example, combat is broken up into "rounds" of 5 seconds real time each. The player has up until the 5 second (or whatever works right for the pacing) to submit his action for the upcoming round and then the server executes everyones actions for the "round" simultaneously.
In other words, your dealing with a "not quite real-time" system where things are controled enough that you are not overburdoned with latency issues but it's still fast enough to keep the action rolling along smoothly. Although I do like FPS style shooter games, I don't neccesarly like the "well the server registered my click .012 seconds before yours so I'm going first" when you have the potential lag/latency issues of large scale battles that tend to occur in MMO's.
More important then the speed of the action for me is the depth of the system. I do hope we see more factors and more depth in terms of options then are generaly provided for in the typical MMO combat system these days. I'd love to see things like facing, being flanked, occupying cover, occupying high ground, fatigue, stamina and encumberance taken into account.
It'd also be nice to see manuvers that are a little bit more thoughtfull in terms of consequences then those typicaly represented by the hotbar buttons you see in most MMO's
So something like a "Lunge" that does more damage if you hit, but also drops your Armor Class while you are doing it because you are fully commited to the attack...and can't defend yourself as well as a consequence.
It would also be nice to see systems that took different damage types done by weapons into account (say slashing vs crushing)...and different defences against that type of damage (i.e. Padded Armor is pretty decent against a crushing attack....not so great stopping peircing weapons).
In other words, the depth of the combat system matters more to me then what it looks like when I swing a weapon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DDO best fantasy mmo combat. If you don't know that you haven't tryd it.So true, head and shoulders above WOW type games. Was soooooo disappointed in SWTOR combat.
look at what you did, now i have to go and try DDO..
seriously, my rule of thumb is: "if you can play it with one hand, it's not challenging" i'm sick of having the desire to watch a movie on my second screen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My biggest wish for Pathfinder Online is no tab targeting combat.
My biggest wish for PFO is tab targeting combat.
I don't have the slightest problem if there is an option to use twitch-style combat, but I really don't want that to be the only option.
As I've said before, I really wish there was an MMO that would support seriously disabled people being able to play, based on their character's skill alone, rather than on the player's skill at anything other than decision-making.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Targeting should not be part of the challenge- that beaks two core tenets, by giving players with high-resolution monitors and the hardware to play in 3420*1920 resolution a better ability to target than those who can only get 640x480, and by giving players with motor disabilities a disadvantage compared to other players. If the intent of a game is to compare how well I can click on a target, that's fine. It just isn't the game that GoblinWorks is marketing as PFO.
Tab-targeting is a way of allowing the player to select their target; so is click targeting. I don't want to play a MMO where my ability to click on a target is important, I want to play a MMO where I make decisions, see their results, and adjust my techniques on the fly to maximize performance. I've got lots of other multiplayer competitive games to test my ability to combine reflexes and tactics, like TF2.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for tab targeting, or some sort of non-player-skill targeting, mainly so that it's one less thing to worry about. To drag out this comparison again, EvE Online uses "lock-on" targeting, but it's very similar to tab-targeting; once you've targeted an enemy, all skills will automatically be attempted on the target. In a game where PvP is already going to be commonplace, and with so many things (skills, location, equipment, abilities) to manage, having tab-targeting would mean one less thing to worry about.
EDIT: I was going through the Trinity Roles thread and I figured that one topic of discussion could be moved over here. Here's another reason to implement some targeting system, rather than skillful clicking:
What if all combatants got bonuses to attacking someone who wasn't targeting them? So, if that hobgoblin you're fighting is going after the wizard, instead of you, you have bonuses to attack him. Maybe rogues get extra bonuses. However, since you're targeting the hobgoblin, now all of his buddies get bonuses to attack you, if they choose to attack. That would add some strategy to a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It doesn't matter if you hide behind a tree to avoid enemies. The enemies will see a stupid artificial little red circle on the ground around your character no matter what you do.
You're not objecting to tab-targeting, you're objecting to targeting without requiring line-of-sight, and you're objecting to having artificial indicators that make it hard for you to find.
The "immersive" way to target would be to target what you're looking at. Tabbing is just a simple way of telling the computer what you're looking at.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tabbing is just a simple way of telling the computer what you're looking at.
That's a good point. It's not just about what you're trying to hit, it's about what the computer thinks you're trying to hit. There needs to be some way to make sure that both you and the server know what you're aiming at. Targeting is one of the best ways to do so; you pick a target, and the server draws a little circle under them to remind you what you're targeting. Now both you and the server know that, when you attack, all attacks will be going to that target. There are some variations (multiple targets, offensive/defensive targets, skill target forwarding), but there had yet to be an MMO-RPG that didn't use targeting to some degree. At least, not one that didn't have combat issues (to my knowledge; can anyone else think of any?).
Even Bethesda's non-MMOs still have targeting; for them, the target is whatever enemy you have your reticle on, but all untargeted attacks still automatically miss (except some AoE's).
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Tab-targeting is a way of allowing the player to select their target; so is click targeting. I don't want to play a MMO where my ability to click on a target is important, I want to play a MMO where I make decisions, see their results, and adjust my techniques on the fly to maximize performance. I've got lots of other multiplayer competitive games to test my ability to combine reflexes and tactics, like TF2.
How does tab targeting increase your ability to make decisions, see their results and and adjust your techniques on the fly to maximise performance? The opposite is true! Tab targeting significantly reduces the number of decisions/techniques a player can employ.
Tab targeting is completely immersion breaking. The world and environment don't mean a thing in a tab targeting game. It doesn't matter if you hide behind a tree to avoid enemies. The enemies will see a stupid artificial little red circle on the ground around your character no matter what you do. The tree you're hiding behind doesn't provide cover from archery or spells... *Stopping myself from going on a 100 page rant*.
PFO using the TF2 engine for combat is 100 times better than PFO coping WOW's tab targeting fail.
What tactics don't work if you have the ability to select the target that you want to, and to cycle through the targets that you see?
If you want to hide, hide using the stealth skill, not by exploiting a graphical glitch that keeps your avatar from rendering on their screen. (Unless you also want to force first-person viewpoint on everybody, all the time)
And if you want players with a low ping to have an insurmountable advantage over those with high ping times, you're looking at the wrong game.
How does tab targeting increase your ability to make decisions, see their results and and adjust your techniques on the fly to maximise performance?
Simply put--because human beings are incapable of multitasking. You can aim, or you can move, or you can make a tactical decision, but not at the same time. You can do these quickly in sequence, but with less effeciency than doing one thing or two things in sequence. Targeting removes the necessity of aiming and allows you to do less things in sequence, making those things much easier to do.
The world and environment don't mean a thing in a tab targeting game. It doesn't matter if you hide behind a tree to avoid enemies. The enemies will see a stupid artificial little red circle on the ground around your character no matter what you do. The tree you're hiding behind doesn't provide cover from archery or spells...
Quality of life issue. Even in WoW, pillars provide cover and vanish drops your target. But you know what people do with pillars. Do you really want PFO to be "that tree-humping MMO?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm perfectly fine with tab-targeting for fantasy based MMO's. I will admit that I really don't like it for Modern/Sci-Fi based MMO's where gun (or "blaster") play is the dominant factor. It just doesn't feel right for that genre.
I vastly prefer FPS style controls for Modern/Sci Fi RPG's. Frankly I prefer them for Fantasy too...but Tab'd doesn't really bother me in Fantasy based games so much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DDO best fantasy mmo combat. If you don't know that you haven't tryd it.So true, head and shoulders above WOW type games. Was soooooo disappointed in SWTOR combat.look at what you did, now i have to go and try DDO..
seriously, my rule of thumb is: "if you can play it with one hand, it's not challenging" i'm sick of having the desire to watch a movie on my second screen.
hehe I'll be interested to hear what you think of it. I really enjoyed DDO obviously just prefer EVE due to the sandbox aspect plus you can never really max out. DDO had no real PVP wich was another issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Targeting should not be part of the challenge- that beaks two core tenets, by giving players with high-resolution monitors and the hardware to play in 3420*1920 resolution a better ability to target than those who can only get 640x480, and by giving players with motor disabilities a disadvantage compared to other players. If the intent of a game is to compare how well I can click on a target, that's fine. It just isn't the game that GoblinWorks is marketing as PFO.
Tab-targeting is a way of allowing the player to select their target; so is click targeting. I don't want to play a MMO where my ability to click on a target is important, I want to play a MMO where I make decisions, see their results, and adjust my techniques on the fly to maximize performance. I've got lots of other multiplayer competitive games to test my ability to combine reflexes and tactics, like TF2.
Well designing a game to cater to a minority of "players with motor disabilities" is a not winning tactic. Although you could make casters for example less twitch based. I still like the 60% slower movement in combat zone. It's not turn based but it gives you time to think and stratagise.
Guys, Temple of Elemental Evil with turns per player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBJWibmmsE
Either that or like Baldur's Gate Co-Op.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Guys, Temple of Elemental Evil with turns per player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBJWibmmsE
Either that or like Baldur's Gate Co-Op.
yeah TOEE is bar none the best representation of table top 3.5 d&d. I also love darksun wake of the ravager for 2nd edition amazing game and awsome world. Darksun was pretty much my ownly reason for buying 4th edition what a letdown.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've tried several MMO's and never got past day 1 because of the combat. The only one that has held my interest is DDO and a lot of that has to do with their combat. I would like to see something similar to their's.
Ya, DDO still has the best action/timer based combat system I've seen yet. Action and moving matters, but not so much that it's overwhelming to newer players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As awsomely done as the turn based system in TOEE was, any turn based system is pretty much fail when you are looking at 50+ vs 50+ wars.Guys, Temple of Elemental Evil with turns per player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBJWibmmsE
Either that or like Baldur's Gate Co-Op.
Indeed. Just as they have said in their blog that leveling up in the pen and paper method doesn't translate well to a computer game, it is quite an understatement to say that turn based gameplay also does not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've tried several MMO's and never got past day 1 because of the combat. The only one that has held my interest is DDO and a lot of that has to do with their combat. I would like to see something similar to their's.Ya, DDO still has the best action/timer based combat system I've seen yet. Action and moving matters, but not so much that it's overwhelming to newer players.
I have played DDO also & while I agree the combat was engaging, the combat animations themselves were less then desired. It felt very clunky, choppy & turned me off. To me it's more then just the type of combat they choose, it's the way character moves, performs an action/spell & the feeling or responsiveness you get back as a player.
Combat & art direction go hand in hand. It is important that is also relates to the environment or world that it is designed for. Sound also effects a players overall experience when in combat.
To me, these are all important to consider when choosing the right combat system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tasarak, I totally agree and had the same experience with LOTRO (no surprise, since they're both Turbine). The combat animations always felt constricting, and the flow just felt wrong.
@Lambdachops, I think PFO will be much better served not trying to reinvent the wheel. Several games have tried to innovate a "better" way to do combat. From DDO to Age of Conan to others I never bothered to play, and none of them ever created anything worth emulating. Stick with what works until something else is proven to be better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lambdachops, there's a world of difference between advising PFO to "Stick with what works until something else is proven to be better." with respect to one very particular mechanic, and "want[ing] the game to play like every other mmo that has came out for the past seven or so years".
PFO will be innovating a lot of new things and I'm very supportive of that. Personally, I don't see a major problem with the 12-button hotbars, and I've been extremely disappointed with what I've seen other companies try to do to get away from them. If you show me a new system that works, I'll be all over it. But asking PFO to re-implement someone else's failure, but to "do it right this time" seems like a bad idea.
For over a decade, we have been presented again and again with the same, hotkey-based combat system in these games. I would have to say that a significant portion of the MMO community has grown out of this unexciting, archaic gameplay. Please, Goblinworks, maintain your vision of a revolutionary approach throughout your entire game. Do not take the safe way out. You can make something good, or you can try and forge a legend, something truly amazing and unprecedented.
DDO best fantasy mmo combat. If you don't know that you haven't tryd it.So true, head and shoulders above WOW type games. Was soooooo disappointed in SWTOR combat.
I don't know how you actually see some difference in the combat between theese games (DDO, WoW and SWToR) because I don't....
They are all very alike to me...
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Goblin Squad Member
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A couple of discussions seem to be at work in this thread. Dislike for some "standardized" methods of input and UI, and dislike for the style of MMOs as they've evolved.
UI and input method can be a pretty complicated detail thats probably best saved for a later discussion, once we've got more info on designer intent and so on, so I'll focus my questions on how people feel about how combat works in different MMOs.
I'd really like to know what it is about the combat in WoW or DDO (or any of the other MMOs) that people don't enjoy. Is it the look and feel of the interactions? What basics of the mechanics of the system don't people like? Is it the adventure comic style actions? Is it the vast difference for in power level between the player and non-players? Is it stylistic choices in player abilities? Please, tell me, I really want to know the specifics.
I guess the point of my questions is to analyze what about these games are so reviled by some. I'd really like to dissect some of the concepts, so we can discuss them and provide the Developers and Designers some articulate feedback. Blanket dislike and dismissal of WoW doesn't really explain to them what we want, it only tells them we don't want them to do something they've already decided not to do; build a large, static, theme-park style game, totally devoid of a sense of persistence.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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DDO best fantasy mmo combat. If you don't know that you haven't tryd it.So true, head and shoulders above WOW type games. Was soooooo disappointed in SWTOR combat.I don't know how you actually see some difference in the combat between theese games (DDO, WoW and SWToR) because I don't....
They are all very alike to me...
Really? The two combat systems of SWG were nothing like each other, never mind anything like any other system...
The INTERFACE is similar between most of those, because that interface is the best designed one to date. I don't anticipate Goblinworks having the resources to create a radically better interface than SOE has been able to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The two combat systems of SWG were nothing like each other, never mind anything like any other system...
The INTERFACE is similar between most of those, because that interface is the best designed one to date. I don't anticipate Goblinworks having the resources to create a radically better interface than SOE has been able to.
I was about to wholeheartedly disagree with the first sentence, until I read the second.
For my part, SWG (original) and SWTOR are indistinguishable with respect to Combat UI mechanics, and they're just like almost every other MMO: You have a bunch of "abilities" that you can activate via a 12-button hotbar. Yeah, the "abilities" might be radically different from game to game, but I don't think that's what people are objecting to.
From what I can tell, the people who are asking for a DDO-style combat system are wanting the UI to function more like a gamepad controller for Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat (sorry if that makes me sound as old as I am).
I'd really like to dissect some of the concepts, so we can discuss them and provide the Developers and Designers some articulate feedback.
A worthy goal.
I realize I'm probably not the intended target for your questions, but I would like to say again that I think the worst thing a combat system can do is make the characters feel unresponsive. Don't stick me to the ground so you can finish some animation I don't really care all that much about in the first place. Let me move, dagnabbit!
I'd really like to know what it is about the combat in WoW or DDO (or any of the other MMOs) that people don't enjoy.
My impression is the objection to the standard MMO style of combat is just a thinly veiled attempt to promote FPS style combat.
If people mean something other than this, I would like to hear it.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The two combat systems of SWG were nothing like each other, never mind anything like any other system...
The INTERFACE is similar between most of those, because that interface is the best designed one to date. I don't anticipate Goblinworks having the resources to create a radically better interface than SOE has been able to.
I was about to wholeheartedly disagree with the first sentence, until I read the second.
For my part, SWG (original) and SWTOR are indistinguishable with respect to Combat UI mechanics, and they're just like almost every other MMO: You have a bunch of "abilities" that you can activate via a 12-button hotbar. Yeah, the "abilities" might be radically different from game to game, but I don't think that's what people are objecting to.
From what I can tell, the people who are asking for a DDO-style combat system are wanting the UI to function more like a gamepad controller for Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat (sorry if that makes me sound as old as I am).
Every online competitive game I have ever seen has a finite number of "abilities" (things you can do), activated via some method (if I program a macro, it becomes via 'hotkeys'). The fact that those abilities do things which differ at the core is what make them different games. The relative importance of strategic decisions versus tactical decisions versus skill in implementing those actions is what makes Team Fortress 2 different from DCUO.
WoW requires very little player skill to execute a tactic perfectly; once you know how to win an encounter, you simply perform the required actions. DCUO requires a lot of player skill; if you don't have overpowering equipment, you need to mix melee, ranged, blocks, dodges, and ability use with target priorities and coordination with allies to win. They are basically the same endgame: Repeat the same instances over and over in order to acquire better equipment which allows you do do harder instances...
SWG(1) threw a major wrench into that system: Rather than have one number which represented your ability to not die and a different number which was your ability to use abilities, you had three numbers which all served both as 'not die' and 'use abilities', and opponents had the same.
WoW would still be WoW if all abilities had to be typed into the console, but wouldn't be WoW if it was open-world sandbox with exactly the same abilities and interface.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I talk about Combat UI Mechanics, I'm not talking about anything that is remotely relevant to sandbox vs theme park.
From my perspective, there are two basic "styles", and I think Hudax is right about what's going on here, so I'll use his terms.
MMO-style: You have abilities that you activate by clicking a button on a hotbar (or typing a number, etc.). That ability then takes effect, possibly on the target you've previously selected.
FPS-style: You equip different weapons/spells/abilities and activate them by performing a "combo" on your controller (mouse, gamepad, etc), where you hit one or more buttons possibly in combination with moving a joystick (or direction pad, or arrow keys) in set patterns. That ability then takes effect, possibly on the target under your mouse cursor.
I have no problem whatsoever with PFO supporting FPS-style combat.
I have a huge problem with people who want to ensure PFO doesn't support MMO-style combat.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm just going to point out that using that broad of a category for 'style' is like saying that Warhammer Fantasy Battles, Pathfinder, and 4e all use the same style of rolling dice to determine outcomes.
And any 'combo' entered into an input device is equivalent to hotkeys if you have the right input device. I really hope there isn't a literal "win" macro.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I much rather play games like Risk and Settlers of Catan over games like Chutes & Ladders and Operation. Don't get me wrong I had fun with Operation as a kid but the game has no redeeming value and is more a gimmick game then anything else.
Please leave the gimmicky combat out of PFO and let games like Tera die by the sword.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I can tell, the people who are asking for a DDO-style combat system are wanting the UI to function more like a gamepad controller for Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat (sorry if that makes me sound as old as I am).
Um, not so much...
The main difference is that you can move around while using your hotkeys without the movement interrupting anything.
The second thing is, for melees and archers, your basic attacks are done by just clicking the right mouse button. Hotkeys mostly toggle stances, or equipment, or are used for secondary attacks that have a cooldown timer like stunning blow, trip, sap, smite, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gimmicky! That's the perfect word to describe what Conan and DDO did with combat.
From your above comment, as well as this one which equates Conan combat with DDO combat, I'm fairly certain you have gotten a very inaccurate picture of DDO's combat system so far. I've played both and combat in the two are very different. I can see someone calling the Conan system a little more Street Fighterish, but that is not a fit at all for DDO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, I was not trying to say that Conan and DDO were very similar, only that they both tried to be innovative with combat, and both ended up feeling Gimmicky.
The main difference is that you can move around while using your hotkeys without the movement interrupting anything.
I don't understand which "style" you're talking about here. Are you trying to say that moving around while attacking is good? or bad?
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A couple of discussions seem to be at work in this thread. Dislike for some "standardized" methods of input and UI, and dislike for the style of MMOs as they've evolved.
UI and input method can be a pretty complicated detail thats probably best saved for a later discussion, once we've got more info on designer intent and so on, so I'll focus my questions on how people feel about how combat works in different MMOs.
I'd really like to know what it is about the combat in WoW or DDO (or any of the other MMOs) that people don't enjoy. Is it the look and feel of the interactions? What basics of the mechanics of the system don't people like? Is it the adventure comic style actions? Is it the vast difference for in power level between the player and non-players? Is it stylistic choices in player abilities? Please, tell me, I really want to know the specifics.
I guess the point of my questions is to analyze what about these games are so reviled by some. I'd really like to dissect some of the concepts, so we can discuss them and provide the Developers and Designers some articulate feedback. Blanket dislike and dismissal of WoW doesn't really explain to them what we want, it only tells them we don't want them to do something they've already decided not to do; build a large, static, theme-park style game, totally devoid of a sense of persistence.
I haven't tried DDO...but WoW and most of the MMO's I've tried...thier combat systems were far too simplistic and lacking in tactical options or depth. I'd like a game where the combat system approached the level of tactical depth that you see in the better designed PnP systems...
where you start to consider things like facing/flanking/positioning... spotting cover/terrain advantage...collision detection, attacks of opportunity...freindly fire, attacks/defences that had REAL measurable differences in effects.Most MMO's tend to boil down to press hotkey #1 that does X amount of damage, wait 3 seconds... press hotkey #2 that has a different fancy animation but is essentialy the same effect as #1 except it does X + 4 damage, wait 3 seconds... press hotkey #3 which has yet another fancy animation but yet again has pretty much and identical effect except it is X + 6 damage this time...repeat sequence add infinitem...apply same sequence with very little variation to virtualy every combat situation/scenerio presented in the game against virtualy every enemy presented in the game...because they are pretty much all the same, just with different skins.
That to me, is the essence of what most MMO combat has devolved to these days... and it's unsatisfying as heck. I'd rather experience something that plays closer to an online fantasy version of a minatures wargame ...or a PnP ruleset... where the tactical considerations and conditions of battle and the nature of the opposition makes a real difference... I want heavy infantry forming up a shield-wall, archers taking the high ground to rain down death upon advancing formations... and skirmishers infiltrating through cover to launch a surprise attack from an unexpected direction and try to TURN A FLANK of the enemies main battle line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want heavy infantry forming up a shield-wall, archers taking the high ground to rain down death upon advancing formations...
I totally agree. However, I also realize how incredibly difficult it would be to calculate all of the different variables that might be important in real time.
I could see an ability that formed a Shield Wall, that each heavy infantry character would activate, that would generate certain bonuses while active and while in range of others with the same ability active, with some bonuses possibly increasing based on how many characters are involved in that shield wall.
I really think it's going to be important, though, for those things to be explicitly coded for, and for the players to explicitly indicate their intention to use that ability.
That's why I would be 100% okay with loading screens between hexes, if the payoff was a much more fully developed game such as we've described.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The "push button; do X damage" model is a somewhat simplified version of the model, but i get your point. I'd also like to point out what you've described GrumpyMel is the most basic and boring aspect to it. Many encounters in current models are scripted quite heavily to drive a more "tactical" approach. This heavily scripted model is unfortunately formulaic and when you get down to knowing how an encounter works, i suppose it once again can be diluted down to "push button do X" (although how this relates to fun can be debated endlessly).
Which brings me to my second point; with players as content, you can rest assured that if the game mechanics provide even the slightest understood advantage (fighting from a height advantage, or flanking both being relatively simple) than as many players as know about it will be fighting each other for the advantage. Most pre-modern wars are dictated by just those two simple rules, and as such I imagine players will attempt to follow those rules as well.
Now we know players won't be the only content, and as such we must rely on the AI of the game controlled NPCs to behave in interesting and fun ways. To this point I sincerely hope they act reasonably but still prove to be conquerable. It would also be terribly awesome if some semblance of tabletop expectations were translated here, with Goblins randomly doing silly and detrimental things, Trolls wading straight into the fray, and bandits moving and fighting with cover and intelligence. All those things do require more overhead to accomplish on the design end.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What an oddly heated topic.
The mouse can do alot, if you want it to control camera, sure. You can either set that as its default purpose (use other buttons to use skills) or set it so you have to hold a mouse button to move view (say right mouse button to pan, left can click).
I am fonder of the real time, although if slow motion is not super slow (like 25% slow and 180% slower are not the same in this) that could work too, to get the best results. We do have to maintain the possibility that some abilities could take more than a round to fully work, while other actions could be faster.
The ability to hit in real time enforces the immersion because you have to react or be taken in the surprise round. This also allows a player to attack with stealth without triggering an aura when someone hits you automatically.
Split second dodging is a no please. I play FPS fairly often and I am used to high speed gameplay but we do not need instant reaction times. Do I think if you see an archer pulling back that you should be able to move from side to side? Yes. (This made me realize if the aura of slow was 3 times the distance of the longest reach weapon... what would a bow do to large areas? har har).
That said I expect skills to have a recovery. I do not just slash at you twice and continue to do so constantly, its taxing and I have to recover from the momentum of the swing on top of any other factors. I could be making points in pieces but I am hoping people follow what I said all the same. I am NOT opposed to queued up actions to make things a little easier, or even moving while acting.
In regard to the ideal speed of game play, this strikes me as something that should be configurable if possible. The FPSers will want to be able to chase people or change targets quickly while slashing at them, while others may just prefer their characters auto-follow/chase and continue the attacks. Its a matter of how involved and deep people want to be really.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That said I expect skills to have a recovery. I do not just slash at you twice and continue to do so constantly, its taxing and I have to recover from the momentum of the swing on top of any other factors. I could be making points in pieces but I am hoping people follow what I said all the same. I am NOT opposed to queued up actions to make things a little easier, or even moving while acting.
DCUO accomplished sensible attacks. And it's a system i would like to see in PFO: Attack Combos.
I hate wielding a weapon and just having a subset of special moves i could do. but sadly those types of games are the only strong force in the market. The action based control system just makes so much more sense, you still have an ability bar, but the majority of you attacks are done with combinations of 4 buttons and 'special abilities' are done from the ability bar. It makes you a puppet master, instead of a director like most mmo's do. When you swing a weapon the next swing uses that last swings momentum, doing a simple slash over and over again requires a few second delay between each swing.
My two favorite 'attack' systems are DCUO's and SWG's. DCUO because of the incredible added immersion from finally being able to have a 'swing weapon' button, and SWG because of the ability queue, i didn't have to worry about perfect timing.
I think i brought it up here in the past, an most people didn't want it. But I think the 'action' control system that you usually only see in adventure console games, would be great for the game. When you're looking for immersion, actually controlling when and how your character swings their weapon in real time adds tremendous immersion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am 100% in favor of certain attacks gaining bonuses or penalties based on whatever "ready state" their last attack left them in. There should be certain attacks that are natural follow-ups to others, and I would love a game that modeled that well.
Perhaps a system where each attack might have a required starting ready state, and an ending ready state. Then there could be a table of costs to change from one ready state to another.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The main difference is that you can move around while using your hotkeys without the movement interrupting anything.I don't understand which "style" you're talking about here. Are you trying to say that moving around while attacking is good? or bad?
I was pointing out the difference between DDO and other MMOs with the point that, no, it is not like Street Fighter. It was not a value statement (good vs bad).
Only point I was making was that you are giving a strong impression that you did not get an accurate idea of what people were describing when talking about DDO. They're discussing apples, and you're responding about oranges.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just tried out the Tera Online Beta. I love it. For me personally, the action combat makes sense and is intuitive without being over the top. There is also a scale for how much player skill and reaction speed is required to play each class.
I completely understand that, combat wise, some people want a game that plays your character for you. That's what they want. What I want is something involving action and human skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I wish to see would be a target list where you could click your target. If some one initiates combat, people in a certain radius are asked, if they want to join in. Those who do get initiative and go on the target list. Exclusions from the list would be a person you character doesnt know to be in the area <stealth ie.>. Any person who aids either side go on the list. People involved in combat, but out of line-of-site are greyed out. Ie, the invisible cleric that healed the guy your fighting for the third time, you cant see him but you know hes here somewhere helping. Clicking a moving guy on the run just so i can try to hit him sucks. And tab-targeting just doesnt work well. Put his name on the list to target and let my character make the roll to see if he could hit him.
Also, earlier metioned, a 6 second GCD to limit movement and abilities per round. But it could be done in 3 second intervals for half actions to better real time play etc.