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I want a level 1 ability that can be used to direct attacks from party members, using their skills and stats but my actions. Like ready! Aim! Fire! But at level 1 as a built in alternative to attack.
I'd rather direct allies like I'm playing chess with my allies than actively participate in the fighting.
This would actively rub me the wrong way entirely - like I'm basically just a pawn for this person playing the Commander. I would much rather the Commander actively also be putting themselves in danger than just telling me what to do.
I feel like there's room for something between the power level of Strike Hard and the master tactics (Ready, Aim, Fire and Demoralizing Charge). Maybe adding another charge or attack command with a rider as an expert tactic.
I know this will probably be the case, but I'm hoping for more expert tactics once the book releases.
Design Manager
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I feel like there's room for something between the power level of Strike Hard and the master tactics (Ready, Aim, Fire and Demoralizing Charge). Maybe adding another charge or attack command with a rider as an expert tactic.
I know this will probably be the case, but I'm hoping for more expert tactics once the book releases.
There will definitely be more tactics of every tier in the final release; the playtest is just a data collection baseline.
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Is the banner required to be on hand? Cant you mount it on your armor like the woman image in the playtest page?
More specifically, you are supposed to be a 1-handed martial, like the thaumaturge? Or you are supposed to rely on plant banner to use 2-handed weapons?Speaking of which, what are the statistics for the banner, object wise? Suppose someone fireball the square with the banner, for example. It's just destroyed?
I agree that we should have something stats-wise for the banner since it's so important to the class functioning. The Thaumaturge's Esoterica trait works the same way, but there it's easier to justify not having specific stats as it represents a menagerie of trinkets and baubles as opposed to a single tangible banner that can be planted or stolen.
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Guess I should post my first impressions here.
I really like what you are trying to do with the class, but it looks very rough around the edges.
> Drilled Reactions is a bit wonky because lots of the tactics available don't even use them in the first place. I also think it is a wasted opportunity, having a class that can give proper, non-limited extra reactions would be amazing, both fun to play with and it would give the class a very strong niche.
> I'm fine with heavy armor because I think the class is more fit for ranged combat anyway, it is just a needed help for melee commanders. I like the current overall proficiencies too. I'm also a big fan of Warfare Expertise. If I could add something, it would be that for skill checks caused by your tactics, your allies can use your Warfare Lore stat with a penalty (something like a -2 or a -4) instead of their regular skill stat if it is lower. That way, even if your allies are not that well prepared to take advantage of your tactics, they get to do something thanks to your instruction. Sort of a consolation prize.
> Tactics in general are all over the place in value, but I like the general design. One thing I want to say, though. I hope for the final release we don't see a slighly too efficient Trip or Grapple tactic due to the lack of testing.
> I'm generally fine with the design of feats, but there are a few that worry me. First is Defiant Banner. It is alright for the most part, but it needs a smoother scaling. 5 resistance to physical damage is not that much by level 13 and 12 is a bit too much by 14 I feel like. Another that worries me is Fortunate Blow, I just think it is too good to not have a once per 10 min CD instead of flourish (of course, I might change opinions if I get to test it).
> Why does the AC get a delayed proggression? Once you released both the Cavalier and Beastmaster dedications it stopped making any sense. Just give it full proggression, it is IMO a very important part of the classes flavor, you should not need to ignore the in-class version and pick an archetype instead.
> A weaker version of Pennant of Victory early on would be neat.
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Okay so I want to point out but Paizo why do you keep excluding Kineticist from being able to get support from most support abilities. Ready, Aim, Fire! Tactic is a example of how every other class can benefit from it outside of Kineticist, it can allow you to Reaction to fire a ranged weapon OR a Cantrip of 30ft or longer but no Kinetic blast? Did you forget Kinetic blast is not a ranged strike nor a cantrip?
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As written feels like it has kind of the same problem the PF1 Skald did where party dynamics are too important.
I concur. Like the Commander's various "enable range tactics" are incredibly effective in a party designed to take advantage of it, but aren't something you're going to want to choose for one of your limited "tactics known" choices for like a pickup game (e.g. PFS.)
As little as possible, we should try to avoid making "guess what's going to happen in the future" a thing in CharGen (this is why it's good Rangers don't have favored enemies anymore.)
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Also Commander does not support casters which is pretty silly, I expected it to be able to support Casters and Kineticists more. Give the Shield Up! Tactic the ability to cast Shield if you know the Cantrip.
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This class does a lot to get other players involved in their turns, but doesn't really do much on other players turns. It's a bit ironic that they give others a use for their reactions, while not having many for themselves if they're ranged (which as action starved as they are seems like the way to go).
I really wish they had some built in, or at least feat options, for Aid. Something like using a tactic also counts as preparing to Aid allies effected by the tactic. Maybe a level 10 feat for an extra reaction that can only be used to aid.
Or really absolutely anything else you can do with a reaction (preferably from range), even if it's just being able to use your reaction to make an ally responding to a tactic be able to not require a reaction (helpful at low level, pretty pointless once you get the higher level reflex feat).
Other than that, it does feel like some of the options are a lot stronger than others.
I also really like the idea of planting the banner, as others have said it scales strangely. It could probably just be int + half level at 5 to fix that. I'm also not sure what to do about it if my banner is on/is my weapon or shield. It's kind of a hefty price to pay to lose the weapon, but you kind of need it to be your weapon to use anything with the banner trait. Right now the obvious choice is to ignore the one option that's bad to use if it's your weapon. Long story short, I'm not convinced the banner trait is a good idea.
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I feel like the commander should be able to command their horse, but the minion rules don't seem to allow that. If that is the case, and the commander can command their horse, then I can see why their mount animal companion progression would be somewhat delayed, because they would have the action compression of moving their mount and using a tactic on their allies from level 1.
I feel like being able to move around to use tactics on allies is exactly the point of having a horse.
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Please change the name of BATTLE-TESTED WAR HORSE to BATTLE-TESTED WAR MOUNT (or STEED). I have been in groups where someone will see the feat as written and insist the mount must be a horse, even though the prerequisite feat (Commander's Steed) just says "young animal companion". On the other end, "Typically, the steed is an animal companion with the mount ability" suggests this is not always true, so any young animal companion large enough to bear a rider would work even if it doesn't have the mount ability (Ex: catfolk warriors who ride lions and tigers as mounts).
Is it possible to train an animal to be a mount and give it that ability?
I am guessing yes, but not sure where to find the rules for that in the Remaster edition
Having some Tactics with multiple actions could help.
Stealth Tactics wouldn't hurt either.
Dissappear: 2 or 3 actions.
A squadmate can Stide, Hide, and Sneak as a reaction. If you used 3 actions, you and each Squadmate can do it.
Special
If you have this Tactic Prepared, you can use Warfare Lore for your Stealth Checks.
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I feel like the commander should be able to command their horse, but the minion rules don't seem to allow that. If that is the case, and the commander can command their horse, then I can see why their mount animal companion progression would be somewhat delayed, because they would have the action compression of moving their mount and using a tactic on their allies from level 1.
Why can't they?
Minion Trait definition in Other Spell Traits in Player Core page 301 wrote:
"A minion has only 2 actions and 0 reactions per turn, though certain conditions (such as slowed or quickened) or abilities might give them a reaction that they can use. Alterations to a minion's actions occur when they gain their actions for the round. A minion can't control other creatures."
How does Tactics work with Eidolons? No like this is a serious question.
How does Tactics work with Eidolons? No like this is a serious question.
Exactly like they would otherwise: they share actions with the summoner. "Each round, you can use any of your actions (including reactions and free actions) for yourself or your eidolon."
Am I missing a limit on the number of banners you can have?
I assume your not intended to walk around planting banners evey 40', but I don't see where it says you can't...
Am I missing a limit on the number of banners you can have?
I assume your not intended to walk around planting banners evey 40', but I don't see where it says you can't...
As many as you can carry? Knight's Standards are cloth flags or banners and are listed as 1 bulk.
As many as you can carry? Knight's Standards are cloth flags or banners and are listed as 1 bulk.Am I missing a limit on the number of banners you can have?
I assume your not intended to walk around planting banners evey 40', but I don't see where it says you can't...
so I can just plant them all over town and everyone would constantly have THP?
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Also why does the Banner Trait and the Commander's Banner ability contradict itself?
Commander’s Banner
Your banner can be affixed to a weapon or shield you are
wielding, or held in one hand and attached to a simple
pole. Feats and abilities with the banner trait require
you to be holding your banner or wielding a weapon or
shield it is attached to.
Banner: The banner trait indicates an ability that
involves you waving or otherwise actively displaying your
banner. To use an ability that has the banner trait, you
must be holding your banner in one hand or wielding a
weapon it is attached to.
If I know Pathfinder 2E and how specific trumps general, Commander's Banner is overcceding the Banner Trait....! I am joking but so to use any Banner abilities you need to ignore portions of your Commander's Banner ability that says I can have it placed on a shield?
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so I can just plant them all over town and everyone would constantly have THP?As many as you can carry? Knight's Standards are cloth flags or banners and are listed as 1 bulk.Am I missing a limit on the number of banners you can have?
I assume your not intended to walk around planting banners evey 40', but I don't see where it says you can't...
As long as you can carry hundreds of bulk around and pay 5gp per extra around one, sure go for it. This also means that is any one within 30' that's destroyed/taken makes you frightened 1 and taking one ends this effect and preventing you and your allies from gaining any of your banner’s other benefits until you have successfully retrieved it. So, an enemy picking up any of them would prevent you from using your abilities and if you are close enough you're afraid...
I'm not overly worried about people covering the town with banners. :P
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My problem with the class in a nutshell: if I'm giving up my almost entire turn and my chassis mostly lacks defense or direct contribution, then I want a lot more than "my friend can make 1 more basic Strike" as one of my two special abilities I can prepare. Because if the result is not at least as good as the sum of its parts, what is the point of playing a support? In this case I could just build an actual martial character and achieve a vastly superior result for my party.
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One of the issue I see with the Commander is that tactics are very poorly balanced.
Many tactics are circumstantial and you can only prepare very few of them. For example, Passage of Lines can be sometimes handy, but no one will ever prepare it as it's way too circumstantial. Same for Defensive Retreat, Coordinating Maneuvers and Double Team. It's a third of the first level tactics that are purely pointless.
Also, Strike Hard! should be baseline as it's really your bread and butter tactic. And you should be able to prepare more tactics. Actually, I absolutely don't understand the point of knowing a tactic but not preparing it. Why does this limitation exist? It makes tactics like Naval/Mountainous Training a must have because they are the only tactics that will give you ten minutes to make the switch.
The result is that there's not much choice in tactics at first level. Strike Hard is too obvious to pass, Naval and Mountainous Training will also be basic choices for your unprepared tactics of the day. I feel 70% of Commanders will have these three tactics.
I'd really remove the concept of "prepared" tactics and consider they are all prepared. I'd also increase the number of tactics you have access to, maybe not at first level but with an extra tactic every 2 levels for example. If I want to play a character who uses always the same routine every round, I'd look at Barbarian or Fighter. As a Commander I don't expect to be a one or 2-trick poney.
Also why does the Banner Trait and the Commander's Banner ability contradict itself?
Commander’s Banner
Your banner can be affixed to a weapon or shield you are wielding, or held in one hand and attached to a simple pole. Feats and abilities with the banner trait require you to be holding your banner or wielding a weapon or shield it is attached to.Banner: The banner trait indicates an ability that
involves you waving or otherwise actively displaying your
banner. To use an ability that has the banner trait, you
must be holding your banner in one hand or wielding a
weapon it is attached to.If I know Pathfinder 2E and how specific trumps general, Commander's Banner is overcceding the Banner Trait....! I am joking but so to use any Banner abilities you need to ignore portions of your Commander's Banner ability that says I can have it placed on a shield?
Then there is the section in Commander’s Banner that talks about the Banner being visible for example being “worn attached to a pole alongside your backpack”. So I’m confused as to what is a) necessary/required for both Tactics and the general visual-aided buff and b) just a good idea for how to “wield/operate” the banner generally to take advantage of everything the banner can do, or might be capable of doing in future.
The trope of the back-mounted flag/banner/standard seems to be entirely missing as an auto-option, and I feel this really leans toward a one-handed weapon style a la Thaumaturge.
I was reading the Warfare Expertise ability and its basically allows to use Warfare Lore as like Esoteric Lore but a bit less defined:
...You can use Warfare Lore to Recall Knowledge about most creatures regardless of type, but typically only to determine whether they can be reasoned with, their most notable offensive abilities[/b[, and whether one of their [b]saving throws is particularly weak. The GM can decide to allow additional questions to be answered when Recalling Knowledge with Warfare Lore as appropriate to the situation...The problem is while a Thaumaturge can you use the Esoteric Lore to recall about everything of every creature (supernatural or not) while Warfare Expertise is restricted to "offensive abilities" and "saving throws" and some other thing that depends from the GM fiat.
So please add more clear specific and less interpretative things related to battle and tactical abilities of the creatures too as immunities, weakness, resistances, defensive actions/activities and any other tactical related abilities too to ensure it effectiveness.
I know that the GM can allow additional questions but having these things explicitly declared will give the Warfare Expertise a better "legal security" between tables and different GMs to allow Commander's players to know what to expect.
When I read this ability I felt that the very things you want added were conspicuous by their absence and thus *intentionally* left out.
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Love the flavour of the Commander but feel it is yet another class focussed on supporting martials. It would be nice to have a support class with a greater balance between martial and caster support. This makes sense in Golarion where casters should be as much a part of tactics and war as martials.
I like there is support for ranged (martial) characters.
Tactics are all over the shop, some are so niche as to never see play or mostly trap options. I would suggest maybe Tactics be grouped into - supports melee, supports ranged, supports casters, general support. If Commanders need to specialise in supporting a particular group to help balance than so be it.
A Commander in the party right now is strong benefit to Melee and Ranged martials so will do well in those parties but offer very little to parties where they are the only martial.
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Love the concept and the current execution looks to be on the right track. My first blush feedback would be:
Drilled Reactions: Fantastic, love it and the expansion feat.
Warfare Expertise: Love it as well. I would maybe consider a bit of a re-jig however with the Deceptive Tactic's feat.
Warfare Expertise has 3 components:
1) Autoscaling of Warfare Lore
2) Specalised Recall Knowledge option
3) Warfare for initiative
Deceptive Tactic's is great in and of itself, but I think I would like to see it bundled with Warfare Expertise and maybe have either the Recall Knowledge component or the initiative component as the seperate feat instead.
Reason being that deceptive tactics are really a part and parcel of warfare, whereas something like having good knowledge of your enemy isn't always needed. So maybe breaking it out that the deception portion is baked in while the Knowledge is the optional feet aspect. Feels like the more flavourful configuration.
Breaking the knowledge part out into a feat also gives the option for it to be an attractive part of the multi-class for any class that like's Warfare lore but isn't already inclinded towards Knowledge. I could see a figther grabbing it from the dedication, even if their int is only so-so.
Tactics: In general are a mixed bag of good, meh and situational. The layout for some reason also suggested to me that their would be "Defensive" tactics as well and I was just tabbing over them.
I'm not wild on the grouping concept as it stands.
If we want to mark out Tactics into different sections and have options that play off that, maybe having something like Mobility, Support, Offense and Defence would be the categories and have different numbers of each be allowed per preparation.
Combat Medic: I'm always a fan of feats like these.
Dazzling Display: I feel like there should be a Dazzling Display-like feat somewhere in the Commander. Maybe using deception or Warfare, but it really does feel like there should be something like that in here.
Horsey: Should probably count as a sqaudmate for the purposes of Mobility tactics.
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Just allies. Other players.I don't know if anyone has asked this but... What can be a squadmate?
hirelings?
Animal companions?
Familiars?I know they don't get reactions, but could they still be repositioned by these tactics? Could a feat allow you to give a minion a reaction?
My read is that you can already choose to give the reaction from Drilled Reactions to a minion (most notably your mount).
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I don't know if anyone has asked this but... What can be a squadmate?
hirelings?
Animal companions?
Familiars?I know they don't get reactions, but could they still be repositioned by these tactics? Could a feat allow you to give a minion a reaction?
you can give them a reaction.
So I see no reason they couldn't be Squadmates.
Nor do I see it being overpowered to give an animal companion a Strike over the Barbarian.
Sifting a Witch familiar around could be useful.
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Design Manager
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A commander can give reactions to their mount via Drilled Reactions as long as it's one of their squadmates.
There's some confusion because AoN seems to have appended a page attribution pointing to Player Core to the old CRB minion text; the Player Core minion text says-
"Minion
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature.
Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when
you spend an action to issue it commands. For an animal
companion, you Command an Animal; for a minion that’s a
spell or magic item effect, like a summoned minion, you
Sustain the effect (page 419); if not otherwise specified, you
issue a verbal command as a single action with the auditory
and concentrate traits. If given no commands, minions use
no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious
harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute,
mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their
instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.
A minion has only 2 actions and 0 reactions per turn,
though certain conditions (such as slowed or quickened)
or abilities might give them a reaction that they can use.
Alterations to a minion’s actions occur when they gain their
actions for the round. A minion can’t control other creatures."
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I disagree that, in play, the commander is going to be a one trick pony. Strike Hard! only works if you have a squadmate in the exact position where you want them to make a strike, and it is a two action activity that locks that squadmate out of benefiting from any other tactic in the turn.
I know a lot of parties assume that battle lines will keep casters out of front lines, but I see pincer attack being a brutal way to set up casters with decent melee spell attack options, Magi, and Kineticists to have an opponent already offguard and adjacent at the start of their turn, but you can delay and time it so that the opponent doesn't get to start their turn adjecent to your allies before they get their nova attacks off. Paired with Stupefying Raid, I feel like you can have a commander that will work really well with casters to set them up to dominate the battle field on different turns.
There are multiple great mobility tactics that I could see most of my parties using at least once an encounter (love Form up! and passage of lines), and even reload! and shields up! with the right party can be devastatingly more effective than just 1 ally making a strike (although that is probably the most effective tactic for society play with parties you don't know the composition of in advance.
From what I am seeing from building my character and getting ready to play test them at a couple of different levels is:
1. that knowledge of your party is going to be a very important in making this class shine and be more than a one trick pony.
2. You totally can build a commander that uses all of their actions to give the rest of the party more actions...
3. but that combining some tactics with some of your feats that cost an action, your party is going to be capable of doing things in a round that no other party can do, which is a really cool thing to accomplish with a class.
4. Level 1 feats are attempting to provide some unique class direction, but are really going to be much less useful than level 2 feats, and I wonder if tactical expansion and adaptive stratagem need to occupy the same level, as having either one of them makes the other one much much better. At the same time, a character who can recall knowledge and then change a tactic on rolling initiative is pretty cool and totally fitting the class fantasy. I bet it will be interesting to see which level 1 feats commanders are taking and whether the vast majority are going to be human so that they can take two of the feats.
5. Officer's education is a really sly and interesting way to build a rogue/investigator multiclass into the commander's base options. I wonder if the autoscaling warfare lore is enough of a base boost to make the class the skillmonkey/support martial hybrid that I see it as, or if it is going to be competing so hard against things like defiant banner and unrivaled analysis that the classes strongest "be a skill monkey" push gets lost?
There are a lot of intriguing higher level feat options too that look really cool, but I will wait to comment on them until I see the class in action with the lower level stuff first.
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1. that knowledge of your party is going to be a very important in making this class shine and be more than a one trick pony.
I definitely agree with the first part of the sentence but not the second. From level 1 to 6 the Commander has literally only 2 tactics. So you can't be anything but a 2-trick poney. Sure, you can change them between fights but as you won't change party it's pointless. Overall, you'll use the same routine (ok, routines as you may have 2 of them) over and over again. That doesn't sound like a "Commander" to me, I expect Commanders to adapt their strategy not to use the same one always.
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So minions can be squadmates is what I'm hearing, and with the Drilled Reactions feature you can give them a reaction (I hadn't thought of that feature with my initial post) But no matter what when it's "As a free action" they can just do that. That makes the the Squad limit increase make more sense.
Well, if you have adaptive stratagem, you get to change 1 out at the start of every combat. So, for example, “oh it is an encounter against a bunch of mobile enemies,” vs “oh there is only one higher level enemy,” is already something you can switch around. And if you have an AoE blaster in the party, then tactics that let people in the party move around and reposition could end up doing way more damage than a single ally strike, but you would never want to be stuck with that as a default because it would be difficult to use effectively vs a solo target.
I'd really remove the concept of "prepared" tactics and consider they are all prepared. I'd also increase the number of tactics you have access to, maybe not at first level but with an extra tactic every 2 levels for example. If I want to play a character who uses always the same routine every round, I'd look at Barbarian or Fighter. As a Commander I don't expect to be a one or 2-trick poney.
I honestly think tactics feats would be much more appropiate than the current tactics subsystem. Like a kineticist, a commander starts with two tactics feats and one commander feat at 1st level. A commander can use their feats to take more tactics feats, but at certain levels (3, 7, 15?) they would receive an extra tactics feat for free. No need to prepare them.
If you want to keep the "prepared" feel, make those extra tactics feats you receive from your class progression work like a fighter's Combat Flexibility. Probably not the first two you receive at 1st level, but those from 3rd level onwards could easily be flexible feats you choose everyday.
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Well, if you have adaptive stratagem, you get to change 1 out at the start of every combat. So, for example, “oh it is an encounter against a bunch of mobile enemies,” vs “oh there is only one higher level enemy,” is already something you can switch around. And if you have an AoE blaster in the party, then tactics that let people in the party move around and reposition could end up doing way more damage than a single ally strike, but you would never want to be stuck with that as a default because it would be difficult to use effectively vs a solo target.
I'll test the Commander (at level 1 unfortunately) soon. Just for fun. But I really feel you are using always the same tactics over and over again. As you say: "If you have an AoE blaster". Roughly, if you have a heavy hitter and not a lot of other melee martials you'll use Strike Hard! all the time. If you have a large group or a Rogue you'll use Pincer Attack. If you have a lot of blasts you'll use Form Up! or Pincer Attack (a Step is in general all you need to properly position a blast). And that's it, mostly.
1. that knowledge of your party is going to be a very important in making this class shine and be more than a one trick pony.I definitely agree with the first part of the sentence but not the second. From level 1 to 6 the Commander has literally only 2 tactics. So you can't be anything but a 2-trick poney. Sure, you can change them between fights but as you won't change party it's pointless. Overall, you'll use the same routine (ok, routines as you may have 2 of them) over and over again. That doesn't sound like a "Commander" to me, I expect Commanders to adapt their strategy not to use the same one always.
agreed
Though another way to boost flexibility is to make tactic themselves more flexible.
Basic Command. 1,2 or 3 actions
1 action, a squadmate can step or shift
2 action, a squadmate can make a Strike
3 action, a squadmate can make a stride and a strike
Alternatively. Meta-Tactics, similar to meta magic.
Skirmish 1 action
If your next action is to use a Tactic, the targeted squadmate's can Step immediately afterwards.