How will / should spell casting work in Pathfinder Online?

[Justin Tanner]

I have read their blog, but I don't remember seeing them mention how spell casting will work in the game.

Will it be like the tabletop, where you get a certain number per day and have to rest to get them back?

I can see this as being really cool, keeping in tradition with the actual roleplaying game. This could make spell casters a really hard class, knowing when and where to use spells. At the same time, this would seem to make their class boring, and depending on how the game is played, really not an option to wait for an 8 hour period to get spells back.

Will you have mana and spells just have a cost and cool down.

This would play like most other MMO's, something that PFO has tried to stay away from doing as much as possible. Although this does seem to keep them in the right for keeping up in damage output of the other classes.

Of maybe you have your own idea for how it should be done.

My idea would be that spells just have longer cooldowns, based on what spell it is and what level of the spell. Higher level spells would have a longer cooldown, obviously; where simple cantrips would only have a few minutes (in game time).

Different classes would have different ways on choosing spells and such.

Wizards will have their big spell lists, but choose what spells they can cast during the day. Possibly resting, or not getting into combat, for the 8 hours (in game time) will allow you to re-choose your spell outputs.

Sorcerers will have their entire book to sue, but at the same time have a smaller list to choose from.

This could also work towards the other classes that cast spells (clerics/bard/oracle/ect...)

What do you guys think? Should it be one of these ways, or do you have an idea for how spell casting should work?

[Onishi]

Very little has been anounced at the concepts of spells, or really anything on abilities/combat etc...

That being said, I mostly back Nihmon's idea of a universal fatigue. IE one bar specifically tied to all abilities, physical and magical. Stronger abilities fatigue faster etc...

Mainly due to the fact of multiclassing in the game. I greatly dislike the idea of say a wiz/rogue, starting out as a massive burst DPS, throwing in everything he has on spells, and then being able to complete the battle as a slow and steady mellee DPS due to having a seperate bar for his rogue abilities.

[Nihimon]

I'm hoping they use long cooldowns sparingly. I'd much rather see spell-casting be a fatiguing activity, that if done "too much, too fast" will leave me exhausted.

I'd like to see Wizards have to choose which spells they'll prepare, but not be limited by a number of times they can cast it (see above for how I'd like to see this limited). I think, though, that Wizards should be able to change which spells they have prepared fairly easily out of combat, although it should probably take enough time to really irritate your group if you're choosing an entirely new set of spells. Maybe something like 15 seconds per spell level being changed, so that you can spend 1 minute to change one 4th level spell.

[Gruffling]

there's really no way to have a longer set of cooldowns on any sort of powerful magic, and have that be comparable to a more martial character. As such, and because we have no way of dilating time, i highly recommend against any sort of emulation of the tabletop style. Just another example of how some things just don't translate at all to an MMO. With that I'm in favor of a more mana based system.

I can really get behind Prepared Style casters having a short list of "active" spells, and being able to re-prep. I think the act of preparing a list should be short cast if at all (most of the time spent would be on the act of choosing), and upon activation of a Spell List as active, a cooldown is then triggered. While I generally lean away from limiting a player from his character's abilities, I can see how this hybrid mana/spell list thing might accommodate both the flavor of the classes, and the "always on" playstyle of an MMO.

As to the spontaneous casters, i think they should have more frequent use of their spells, but a more dedicated, limited selection. Also, as in the case of sorcerers, they should have an always available low power but useful Bloodline style set of powers. Bards should have limited list balanced out with some martial abilities, much like the tabletop flavor, if not the tabletop mechanics.

Perhaps longer cooldowns have value in the case of some of the really limited casters such as Paladins and Rangers? One thing I dislike about those classes at the table is the relative lack of efficacy those classes have in terms of save DC and the like. Just once i'd like to see a Ranger's entangle be vaguely effective!

[MicMan]

There is one rule that is universal to classical MMO PvP:

Burst damage is king

Really, slow and steady doesn't cut it as this will usually be healed as a sidenote.

If you go with long cooldowns or universal fatigue then you either cripple burst damage (if the char is unable to kill at least 1 other with it before becoming "useless" due to fatigue/cooldown) or you do not hinder it at all!

I think that PFO should capitalize on the fact that in PF mages can not really cast effectively if they are beaten on in close combat. This would balance the higher damage nicely and do away with arkward timers/ability fatigue (ability fatigue is not sprint fatigue).

So there could be a triplet of roles:
High burst ranged damage that is crippled in melee
Medium melee damage that is also quite durable
Utility with low to no damage but healing + cc

[Ryghamoc]

Justin Tanner wrote:

I have read their blog, but I don't remember seeing them mention how spell casting will work in the game.

Will it be like the tabletop, where you get a certain number per day and have to rest to get them back?

I can see this as being really cool, keeping in tradition with the actual roleplaying game. This could make spell casters a really hard class, knowing when and where to use spells. At the same time, this would seem to make their class boring, and depending on how the game is played, really not an option to wait for an 8 hour period to get spells back.

Will you have mana and spells just have a cost and cool down.

This would play like most other MMO's, something that PFO has tried to stay away from doing as much as possible. Although this does seem to keep them in the right for keeping up in damage output of the other classes.

Of maybe you have your own idea for how it should be done.

My idea would be that spells just have longer cooldowns, based on what spell it is and what level of the spell. Higher level spells would have a longer cooldown, obviously; where simple cantrips would only have a few minutes (in game time).

Different classes would have different ways on choosing spells and such.

Wizards will have their big spell lists, but choose what spells they can cast during the day. Possibly resting, or not getting into combat, for the 8 hours (in game time) will allow you to re-choose your spell outputs.

Sorcerers will have their entire book to sue, but at the same time have a smaller list to choose from.

This could also work towards the other classes that cast spells (clerics/bard/oracle/ect...)

What do you guys think? Should it be one of these ways, or do you have an idea for how spell casting should work?

The first thing that should be obvious and noted is this. DON'T BE LIKE WARCRAFT (Not entirely anyhow). Areas that theme park MMO's had that destroyed them please throw them out. Now that that is out of the way one thing MMO's should always stick with and that is their roots. Specially when considering this MMO is originating from such a book as Pathfinder. The one thing I've never seen MMO that actually stuck to traditional pen and paper style. If they took this path it would be a very refreshing change from the well known sell-outs of today. It would be the first proper modern MMO I've seen. However we all know this is extremely difficult as there is a balance to such things. Though I believe that people in the game could actually balance themselves out others believe otherwise.

So Instead perhaps the best course of action is to create a revised version of the Pen and Paper rpg. Though I have not played this rpg before it seems in Golarion, from what you've stated, that magic isn't easy. Depending on if this game is played like Elder Scrolls this rule should apply.

This, I believe are the following of what should happen in this instance:

Magic should have effects on the body depending on how strong the spell or how much is needed to be used.

Magic should cause something on your person and how strong effects should be depend on yourself (Race, Stat Levels, Alignment, Etc).

Spells should be strong difficult and at times take multiple people to perform. Consider summoning an avatar of a god-like being. It would be a doubt some people would make it out of that ritual alive. Or at least have extreme injuries.

Spells that are simple should be somewhat difficult to learn but harder to master. Say you healed a buddy then need to fire a blast of flame at an enemy. You can be better at the blast of flame at an enemy and just have wasted using mana on a friend as the enemy already killed him.

Time for regeneration for minor spells shouldn't be exactly as extreme as 8 hours, however, they should have a fair time. A spell for an extreme one should have an effect such as that, if not something a tad worse.

Medium or In-between spells should have a fair balance between the two. While a large fire blast should be able to roast your enemies you are also liable to burn your arms. Though I don't know exactly if that would work I think it's worth a try on a special server.

However if you're going down the path of theme park the above would definitely not work. Best solution is to do what all theme parks do then. Which I really hope this game will not do.

[ricardopituski]

At this point there is no information from GoblinWorks on magic mechanics. Any information would be a suggestion, or speculation. Having said that, I can envision a system which utilizes several aspects of the table top version, and several MMOs.

I suspect there will be a certain number of spell slots (Active spells), and a list of known spells. A Wizard will have a few spell slots, and a lot of known spells. A sorcerer will have more spell slots, and fewer known spells. The character must be in a ‘Safe Area’ to change out spells in their spell slots. I put safe area in quotes, because once you get beyond the NPC towns, nowhere will be truly safe; However, I suspect that a town, or fort will be considered safe enough.

I expect the use on individual spell cooldowns. This will prevent the caster from casting the same spell over and over. This cool down will not necessarily prevent casting other spells.

The overall casting may be mana based. However, if it self regens, I expect it to regen slowly. That is because GoblinWorks has expressed a true desire to have a real functioning economy, and a potion of mana would be a consumable, which would have massive demand if it was necessary for the effective return of mana. If that is the case, then the potion needs to be easy to make (just a few ingredients) and those ingredients are common. Then early farmers could easily create many potions of mana to keep the price very low. They could also make more powerful mana potions from more rare ingredients, and harder to make; Yet, to create demand for those more expensive potions they would need to add in a restriction like, you can only drink 1 mana potion during combat. With that in place, there would be a high demand for the ultra cheap potions, to refill mana outside of combat, and an equally high demand for the more effective potions.

One problem with a dedicated caster, is that I suspect they will be difficult to play solo. They will really need martial characters to be effective. If a spell caster takes a few skills as rogue or fighter, then they might survive solo easier, but would be less effective as a spell caster. This would make it reasonable for the capstone skill for the pure spell caster to be phenomenal. The player will have deserved it.

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

Nihimon wrote:

I'm hoping they use long cooldowns sparingly. I'd much rather see spell-casting be a fatiguing activity, that if done "too much, too fast" will leave me exhausted.

I'd like to see Wizards have to choose which spells they'll prepare, but not be limited by a number of times they can cast it (see above for how I'd like to see this limited). I think, though, that Wizards should be able to change which spells they have prepared fairly easily out of combat, although it should probably take enough time to really irritate your group if you're choosing an entirely new set of spells. Maybe something like 15 seconds per spell level being changed, so that you can spend 1 minute to change one 4th level spell.

I really, REALLY, like this idea.

[Nihimon]

MicMan wrote:

ability fatigue is not sprint fatigue

No reason it shouldn't be...

MicMan wrote:

So there could be a triplet of roles...

I hope not.

One thing that's very important to keep in mind is that PFO will be Skill-based, not Class-based, and not Role-based.

Thankfully, it won't really be possible for them to pigeon-hole us into the kinds of roles you're proposing. Although I imagine there will be a lot of effort put into balancing things like Fatigue costs.

[Onishi]

MicMan wrote:

There is one rule that is universal to classical MMO PvP:

Burst damage is king

Really, slow and steady doesn't cut it as this will usually be healed as a sidenote.

If you go with long cooldowns or universal fatigue then you either cripple burst damage (if the char is unable to kill at least 1 other with it before becoming "useless" due to fatigue/cooldown) or you do not hinder it at all!

The point of universal fatigue, is keeping everyone on an even playing field. It is universal because it will effect the fighters, rogues, clerics etc...

I also have to note that goblinworks specifically is attempting to eliminate the trinity of roles for both PVE and PVP.

[Gruffling]

Use Cases for Spellcasting
Mikey the Master Mage has been training for 6 months, and has some decent high level spells for combat. Muttonhead the barbarian has been training for 2 months, and basically knows how to overhand smash with a big axe over and over. Mikey and Muttonhead get together, and look to go adventuring.

Vancian system: Mikey and Muttonhead go into the woods, find an Orc camp, and get to work. Muttonhead charges in, chops orcs the entire time, and generally has a good time. Mikey drops 4-5 spells, does most of the heavy lifting as far as controlling the baddies, and does some damage as well. The orc camp is cleared, Muttonhead is fired up, but now Mikey is worried. He's down to half resources. They keep going, deeper, and discover Gruffling's Camp of Banditry and Nefarious Niceties. Gruffling's guards are lazy and fat off a recent haul of ill-gotten raw metals, and not paying proper attention, so Muttonhead goes to town on em, but Mikey spends only 1-2 spells, and uses his weak wand of weakness a lot. Now the camp is alert, Muttonhead drops a few more, and Mikey uses the last of his spells to decimate the bandits. They decide to retreat away from the camp and look for easier fair. Now Mikey has to go back home, spend 8 hours (!!!) sitting around staring at walls and watching grass grow, while Muttonhead runs around the country side generally causing axe inspired havoc.

Clearly Mikey finds this "unfair", he's paid his dues for 6 months, but can't have as much fun as someone who created a different class. Mikey's player eventually drops the wizard for its onerous burden and creates a rogue to go join Gruffling's Bandit camp.

Long cooldowns: Much as above, at the end of Mikeys cooldowns, he's combat ineffective for great lengths of time, whereas Muttonhead is still out there, doing his thing, having a good time chop chop chopping. Maybe Mikey logs onto a new character, or just sits staring at this cooldown timers. Either way to group up with Muttonhead, he either has to be exceedingly judicious with his spells, while Muttonhead can chop all day long, or if the two get into something deep and dangerous Mikey empties his arcane can of awesome all over the bad guys, and then has to sit on his hands for a while.

Fast Recharging Resource, Short cooldowns(with or without spell list swapping): Mikey and Muttonhead log in at server open, and play together until external forces shut them down (wife/parents/restroom break/food/server maintenance). They play differently, but on equal footing. They put an end to the claim jumping ways of the Nefarious Gruffling the Greedy. They find dungeons, slay monsters, find and sell rare resources non-stop.

[DeciusBrutus]

MicMan wrote:

There is one rule that is universal to classical MMO PvP:

Burst damage is king

Really, slow and steady doesn't cut it as this will usually be healed as a sidenote.

If you go with long cooldowns or universal fatigue then you either cripple burst damage (if the char is unable to kill at least 1 other with it before becoming "useless" due to fatigue/cooldown) or you do not hinder it at all!

I think that PFO should capitalize on the fact that in PF mages can not really cast effectively if they are beaten on in close combat. This would balance the higher damage nicely and do away with arkward timers/ability fatigue (ability fatigue is not sprint fatigue).

So there could be a triplet of roles:
High burst ranged damage that is crippled in melee
Medium melee damage that is also quite durable
Utility with low to no damage but healing + cc

I disagree with you with regards to burst damage versus long term damage, but only because burst healing and long term healing should both be options. Burst damage versus burst healing leaves an exhausted attacker and an exhausted healer, if they are evenly matched.