Last session I played in, my rogue1/druid6 cast a Summon Nature's Ally III and dropped five stirges on a tough enemy. The way this played out, it ruled school. All five hit with their touch attacks and dropped the enemy's Con by 5 very quickly. The enemy had to concentrate on killing the stirges if it didn't want to continue taking deadly Con damage. I shut down a serious threat with one spell. I ended up doing 9 Con damage in all, which seems magnificent for a third level druid spell.
To this point, I've been sort of the party lump; good for dialogue and plot points, but sort of just a warm body in combat. I've been making a concerted effort to try to be more clever with my spells.
And then suddenly there was this new feeling. The other players looked at me as if seeing me for the first time as a credible power. The DM furrowed his brow and checked the Bestiary before nodding sagely and begrudingly, "I'll allow it." And suddenly I have a very powerful trick in my arsenal.
... but I feel like I have some sort of... "winner's guilt." I wanted to bounce this off of these boards. Has any part of this been errata'ed? Am I cheesing too hard? As far as I can tell, even DR doesn't stop this. If the enemy is vulnerable to ability drain, this spell can hit a single target like a truck. Am I wrong? Mechanically or in sportsmanship?
Sounds to me like it works.
Just remember, sometimes you'll only get two stirges (about 25% of the time, actually, which is pretty much the same chance of getting five stirges).
And some monsters are immune, such as undead or constructs. And some monsters might have a bit of an AE attack, even a 2nd level burning hands could eliminate your entire army of stirges.
Your DM should also remember that a tiny creature like a stirge must enter the enemy's square to attack, which provokes an AoO. So some of your proboscoid pets might get hacked out of the air before they ever land a hit.
And finally, for intelligent enemies, the way to handle stirges is to ready an action to kill/detach any stirge that attaches. So maybe you summon three stirges. They attack. The AoO kills one. The other two make attack rolls. One hits, one misses. The victim now gets his readied action to attack the one that just attached. If he can do 5 HP to it, it will die without ever draining him. Next round, the one remaining stirge attacks and the AoO kills it, and now you're out of stirges.
Yes, you can get the enemy to give up attacks against you in order to deal with your stirges, which is still a very good thing.
Even taking all the above into consideration, it sounds like a great tactic.
So you've come into your own and the DM acts like you're being a over-powered munchkin Druidzilla?
Oh, no no no, he did check it out and raise an eyebrow, but he hasn't complained! I just had some weird guilt over rocking for once. Which I'm getting over.
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It happens sometimes when you feel like you've *outshone* the other players. Just remember that each character has its moments to shine, give the other players their dues when they do something equally awesome, and enjoy it when your turn comes around :)
Nice feeling though, right? So good you feel like you should have done something wrong :D
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Bah, don't sweat, at least in my opinion it is the player's job to "raise the DM's eyebrow" I know I thought I gave my DM a stroke one time when I hit the enemy that he had planned out to be a recurring villain and I knocked it down from full hp to -9 hp (this was 3.5) in a single blow. And it wasn't even the frail spellcaster, it was the full plate + Shield Blackguard.
And I know when I have DM'ed that I have had more than a few moments where I was completely caught off guard by the player's actions, but speaking from both sides of the screen, those are the best moments quite frankly. You're all heroes, you all ought to get your 5 minutes of fame fairly regularly.
but I also applaud Paizo for removing the 1d4 con drain from stirges.
they used to be pure death to low level parties...
Only question I would have would be summoning them into the square of the enemy, otherwise I'm sure the rest is completely valid.
The closest answer I can find in the RAW is this:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
While this does not explicitly prohibit summoning a creature into another creature's space, it does say "It must arrive in an open location" which I take to mean an unoccumpied space.
Open space sounds like an empty square to me.
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Open space sounds like an empty square to me.
Open space sounds like an empty square to me for creatures of size Small or Medium. A Large creature should require 4 open squares, while Tiny creatures (which can fit multiple to a square) can, in my opinion, share a square and consider it 'open'.
Thinking about it, I'd say a viable summoning spot (space-wise) is any square the creature could move in to. So Tiny or smaller creatures could be summoned into the same square as another creature, as could any creature 3 sizes smaller than the creature occupying the space.
Similarly, I'd have no issues with summoning a medium creature into a space already occupied by a Tiny Creature
Summoning stirges has the advantages and flaws of any other grapple-type attack: when it works, it seems almost unfair, but there will be fewer situations where it will work as time goes on (because your enemies' CMD bonuses will get higher and higher, for instance).
I'd say enjoy it for now, because it won't always work.
Well, I think you need to switch from looking at your character sheet to looking around the table.
"Are you getting an equal amount of time and spotlight as everyone else?"
If the answer is yes, then you have nothing to feel guilty about. If your other players are looking like they are tired of the "all about you" show, then tone it back a little.
And if you can teach them to look around the table too, then you'll have a really good gaming group.
If it can fly, I would say the air is a surface capable of supporting it.It also says they must be on a surface capable of supporting it. Are you going to say all flying creatures must come into the battle grounded?
Open space sounds like an empty square to me.
So would I.
But that still doesn't allow them to be summoned into the same space that another creature occupies.
Stirges are good for a few levels, and slowly drop out. While they are best for taking down one particular enemy, keep in mind that it (SHOULD) be rare that you only fight one guy at a time.
Mr. Fishy say, "Player use trick, DM copy trick...Party kill player after game."
There is no rule against clever or lucky. Just be careful. Remember the DM has a lot more stirges than you.
I already said I disagree with that call.If it can fly, I would say the air is a surface capable of supporting it.It also says they must be on a surface capable of supporting it. Are you going to say all flying creatures must come into the battle grounded?
Open space sounds like an empty square to me.
So would I.
But that still doesn't allow them to be summoned into the same space that another creature occupies.
Oh, well, OK then. That's different...
Last session I played in, my rogue1/druid6 cast a Summon Nature's Ally III and dropped five stirges on a tough enemy. The way this played out, it ruled school. All five hit with their touch attacks and dropped the enemy's Con by 5 very quickly. The enemy had to concentrate on killing the stirges if it didn't want to continue taking deadly Con damage. I shut down a serious threat with one spell. I ended up doing 9 Con damage in all, which seems magnificent for a third level druid spell.
To this point, I've been sort of the party lump; good for dialogue and plot points, but sort of just a warm body in combat. I've been making a concerted effort to try to be more clever with my spells.
And then suddenly there was this new feeling. The other players looked at me as if seeing me for the first time as a credible power. The DM furrowed his brow and checked the Bestiary before nodding sagely and begrudingly, "I'll allow it." And suddenly I have a very powerful trick in my arsenal.
... but I feel like I have some sort of... "winner's guilt." I wanted to bounce this off of these boards. Has any part of this been errata'ed? Am I cheesing too hard? As far as I can tell, even DR doesn't stop this. If the enemy is vulnerable to ability drain, this spell can hit a single target like a truck. Am I wrong? Mechanically or in sportsmanship?
Sounds like the time I threw a black pudding at my party (they have an inordinately great fear of all things in the ooze category) when we were running 3.5. The player running the druid had a moment of inspiration and summoned a number of thoqqua. Suddenly surrounded by creatures using flaming slam attacks, the pudding was in trouble and the party was ecstatic. As a DM, I was slightly miffed that a terrifying encounter had the wind taken out of its sails, but it was a brilliant strategy. The player had his moment in the sun.
Don't feel guilty, you made a fine tactical choice and it paid off.
stirges are one of my most hated low cr creatures. but i found ways to deal with them.
heres the easy way to kill stirges when multiple gang up on you, drop prone, roll and crush them all under your weight.
I know this fealing.
1st Level Inquisitor against a whole bunch of Goblins, ~ 10 Kills and thanks to Regeneration-Judgment no Damage at the End of the fight.
There are always such situations, especially with character which were weak, in the eye of the other party members.
Spellcasters, especially druids, have a whole bunch of very specific spells, if you use the right spell at the right time it's a hardcounter, but if you use the wrong, it's like trowing paperballs at a tank.
Last session I played in, my rogue1/druid6 cast a Summon Nature's Ally III and dropped five stirges on a tough enemy. The way this played out, it ruled school. All five hit with their touch attacks and dropped the enemy's Con by 5 very quickly. The enemy had to concentrate on killing the stirges if it didn't want to continue taking deadly Con damage. I shut down a serious threat with one spell. I ended up doing 9 Con damage in all, which seems magnificent for a third level druid spell.
To this point, I've been sort of the party lump; good for dialogue and plot points, but sort of just a warm body in combat. I've been making a concerted effort to try to be more clever with my spells.
And then suddenly there was this new feeling. The other players looked at me as if seeing me for the first time as a credible power. The DM furrowed his brow and checked the Bestiary before nodding sagely and begrudingly, "I'll allow it." And suddenly I have a very powerful trick in my arsenal.
... but I feel like I have some sort of... "winner's guilt." I wanted to bounce this off of these boards. Has any part of this been errata'ed? Am I cheesing too hard? As far as I can tell, even DR doesn't stop this. If the enemy is vulnerable to ability drain, this spell can hit a single target like a truck. Am I wrong? Mechanically or in sportsmanship?
That reminds me of something hilarious. This wizard in one of the games I play in. Summoned five octupus. The little ones. The was one creature left. The dm said we each get our own octupus to control.
It was seriously one of the more hilarious moments of the game as we aided another and grappled down a chuul to death. Very slowly, but we cheered on with our beaked mouths.
Try that. Offer the others to play as the stirges.
Hell, put on Ride of the Valkyries when you do it too.
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... but I feel like I have some sort of... "winner's guilt." I wanted to bounce this off of these boards. Has any part of this been errata'ed? Am I cheesing too hard? As far as I can tell, even DR doesn't stop this. If the enemy is vulnerable to ability drain, this spell can hit a single target like a truck. Am I wrong? Mechanically or in sportsmanship?
Dude, relax!
I'm the OP's DM, by the way. :)
I did furrow my brow, but only because I hadn't read the new stirge yet and it's very different than the old. I simply wanted to make sure I understood how they work.
That said, I had no problem with it and I think the OP needs to not worry about it!
The enemy in question had already used his one available AoO that round, so that wasn't an issue. I understand the arguments surrounding whether a sufficiently small creature could be summoned into another creature's space. I rule that they can't. It's not about size, it's about the magic having room to work. It's a bit of hand waving but I figure it will head off arguements and cheese attempts down the road. That said, I do make exceptions in special cases from time to time.
In any case, good use of SNA.
heres a way to kill stirges
if you have multiple stirges attached to your, here is how you kill them all.
Step 1. Drop Prone
Step 2. Roll over and crush the little bastards under your weight
Step 3, if you are trained in acrobatics, exploit it.
Funny Thing, Rolling is a move action.
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On the other hand, the Giant Frilled Lizard you summoned with SNA3 we're going to have to talk about. :)
For benefit of the rest of the posters: The SNA3 summon list includes 'Giant Lizard', but there is no such specific creature in the Bestiary. Examining the CRs of other creatures on the SNA3 list (all CR2) makes it clear that the Monitor Lizard (CR2) is the appropriate creature, rather than the Frilled which is CR5.
On the other hand, the Giant Frilled Lizard you summoned with SNA3 we're going to have to talk about. :)
For benefit of the rest of the posters: The SNA3 summon list includes 'Giant Lizard', but there is no such specific creature in the Bestiary. Examining the CRs of other creatures on the SNA3 list (all CR2) makes it clear that the Monitor Lizard (CR2) is the appropriate creature, rather than the Frilled which is CR5.
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heres a way to kill stirges
if you have multiple stirges attached to your, here is how you kill them all.
Step 1. Drop Prone
Step 2. Roll over and crush the little bastards under your weight
Step 3, if you are trained in acrobatics, exploit it.
Funny Thing, Rolling is a move action.
That's an interesting tactic [which you'd already posted once by the way. :) ], but I wouldn't allow it. Simply rolling over a creature doesn't do measurable damage. I could see specifically crushing one particular stirge in that fasion, but it would be an unarmed attack, heck you could do multiples if you have that many attacks. Merely rolling wouldn't get you anywhere though. Heck, falling from 10 feet only does 1d6 damage, which might not be enough to kill a stirge (with 5 hp). There's no way just rolling on one is going to do more than inconvenience it.
That's an interesting tactic [which you'd already posted once by the way. :) ], but I wouldn't allow it. Simply rolling over a creature doesn't do measurable damage. I could see specifically crushing one particular stirge in that fasion, but it would be an unarmed attack, heck you could do multiples if you have that many attacks. Merely rolling wouldn't get you anywhere though. Heck, falling from 10 feet only does 1d6 damage, which might not be enough to kill a stirge (with 5 hp). There's no way just rolling on one is going to do more than inconvenience it.heres a way to kill stirges
if you have multiple stirges attached to your, here is how you kill them all.
Step 1. Drop Prone
Step 2. Roll over and crush the little bastards under your weight
Step 3, if you are trained in acrobatics, exploit it.
Funny Thing, Rolling is a move action.
weight is a factor too.
Look for the Falling objects table according to the table; a small creatures does 2d6 and a medium creature does 3d6. from size and weight alone. that is enough to reliably kill a bunch of stirges. even if the results are halved from falling less than 30 feet. a medium character can relaibly AoE kill stirges. AoE stirge kill is far more efficient than you realize.
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Sorry, I wasn't talking about a 10 foot fall killing a stirge. They can fly anyway. I was comparing the damage a 10 foot fall does (1d6) to the hp of a stirge (5) and then comparing that fall to the force apply by just rolling around. Falling applies substantially more destructive force than rolling on the floor.
My point being: rolling on a stirge is not an effective means of killing it.
Heck, let's look at a long sword at 1d8 damage. You're suggesting that rolling on a creature can do 5 hp of damage while a sharp pointy thing does 1d8. I'll give you a choice, I can roll on you, or stab you with a sword. Keep in mind that I weigh > 300 lbs. Which do you choose?
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That's an interesting tactic [which you'd already posted once by the way. :) ], but I wouldn't allow it. Simply rolling over a creature doesn't do measurable damage. I could see specifically crushing one particular stirge in that fasion, but it would be an unarmed attack, heck you could do multiples if you have that many attacks. Merely rolling wouldn't get you anywhere though. Heck, falling from 10 feet only does 1d6 damage, which might not be enough to kill a stirge (with 5 hp). There's no way just rolling on one is going to do more than inconvenience it.heres a way to kill stirges
if you have multiple stirges attached to your, here is how you kill them all.
Step 1. Drop Prone
Step 2. Roll over and crush the little bastards under your weight
Step 3, if you are trained in acrobatics, exploit it.
Funny Thing, Rolling is a move action.
weight is a factor too.
Look for the Falling objects table according to the table; a small creatures does 2d6 and a medium creature does 3d6. from size and weight alone. that is enough to reliably kill a bunch of stirges. even if the results are halved from falling less than 30 feet. a medium character can relaibly AoE kill stirges. AoE stirge kill is far more efficient than you realize.
Don't forget that those figures are for falls of minimum 30ft, halved if it's less (but still must be at least 10ft). Try modeling the "roll" after a non-proficient "crush" attack (see natural attacks of the bestiary). You may have to scale the listed damage down a couple size categories, not sure if it bothers with creatures < huge on that one.
EDIT: @OP: Hi-five! *BAM*
Sorry, I wasn't talking about a 10 foot fall killing a stirge. They can fly anyway. I was comparing the damage a 10 foot fall does (1d6) to the hp of a stirge (5) and then comparing that fall to the force apply by just rolling around. Falling applies substantially more destructive force than rolling on the floor.
My point being: rolling on a stirge is not an effective means of killing it.
Heck, let's look at a long sword at 1d8 damage. You're suggesting that rolling on a creature can do 5 hp of damage while a sharp pointy thing does 1d8. I'll give you a choice, I can roll on you, or stab you with a sword. Keep in mind that I weigh > 300 lbs. Which do you choose?
A medium creature (your average PC) is 2 size categories larger than a stirge, dragons of huge size or larger can do things to them such as crushing or swallowing them whole. by extension, since a medium humanoid is 2 size categories larger then a stirge (like a dragon compared to a human) that medium creature should be able to effectively crush the tiny (or smaller) stirge rather effeciently and effortlessly.
Open space sounds like an empty square to me.Open space sounds like an empty square to me for creatures of size Small or Medium. A Large creature should require 4 open squares, while Tiny creatures (which can fit multiple to a square) can, in my opinion, share a square and consider it 'open'.
Thinking about it, I'd say a viable summoning spot (space-wise) is any square the creature could move in to. So Tiny or smaller creatures could be summoned into the same square as another creature, as could any creature 3 sizes smaller than the creature occupying the space.
Similarly, I'd have no issues with summoning a medium creature into a space already occupied by a Tiny Creature
furthermore, since a 5 foot "step" does not trigger an attack of oppurtunity does it really matter ?
just summon the stirges next to the target and move in for the attack.
Lame-oh FTW!
I'm the OP's boyfriend...
Griffin, you son of a...
RE: Attacks of opportunity against stirges: While the stirge is "effectively grappling its prey", its attack is not a grapple itself, and creatures using natural weapons to attack are considered armed so normally don't provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking. This is not the same as unarmed attacks: natural weapons are considered weapons, not unarmed, and creatures with natural weapons are considered trained in their use. Likewise, moving into a threatened square does not provoke an attack of opportunity unless the occupant of that square has taken a ready action to attack anything entering that square, which does not actually give the occupant an AoO, but allows him/her to use an initiative action to strike before his/her foe does. A couple of my players use this action a LOT when going up against foes they know little about.
RE: SNA: You want effective? Try summoning spiders: They can cast a web as a ranged touch attack that entangles and effectively immobilizes an opponent, at least for one round (often longer) unless said opponent can make a Strength or Escape check to get out of it. Had my druid delaying ghouls this way to give the party a chance to take them down and avoid being paralyzed by the ghouls' attacks. It's especially effective when you have multiple spiders gang up on one opponent.
Best Summoning moment so far: I set up an encounter with an animated two-handed sword flying around the room attacking from above, and the summoner used his SLA to summon in an eagle to grapple the sword. I missed with the AoO (eagles have a very good AC due to size), and the eagle succeeded in its grapple, effectively neutralizing the threat for a couple rounds while the two struggled. Two bad nobody in the room at the time could do enough damage to get past the sword's toughness to destroy it, but the eagle did give another character a chance to grapple the sword and swing it under a falling block trap that DID do the trick.
All my love and oral exercises....
I beleive the direction of the entire thread just changed.
RE: SNA: You want effective? Try summoning spiders: They can cast a web as a ranged touch attack that entangles and effectively immobilizes an opponent, at least for one round (often longer) unless said opponent can make a Strength or Escape check to get out of it....
I hate it when people come up with simple ideas I never thought of, but I thank them anyway.
Now I need to find some players to use this against.
RE: SNA: You want effective? Try summoning spiders: They can cast a web as a ranged touch attack that entangles and effectively immobilizes an opponent, at least for one round (often longer) unless said opponent can make a Strength or Escape check to get out of it.
How do you get that it immobilizes the opponent? As far as I can tell, it just entangles your opponent like a net.
