ottdmk's page

True Debilitating Bomb gives a upgrade for every effect of Greater Debilitating Bomb, except Clumsy 1.

Might be intentional, might be a oversight, bringing it to attention either way.

Pretty sure it's intentional. Clumsy 2 would allow an Alchemist to swing an opponents AC 4 points with a single Action (Quick Bomber with Greater Debilitating throwing a Bottled Lightning) with only a simple failure on the Fort Save. Even the mighty Skunk Bomb requires a Crit Fail to impose a -2 Status Penalty on AC.

Not a fan of the official ruling on Sticky Bomb... quite unsure if Persistent Damage of 2-4 points (4-6 for a Crystal Shards Bomb) is worth an 8th level Feat.

Quite ok with Investigators not getting Precision Damage with Bombs. Would be a fan of a similar ruling on Rogues. The image I have of Precision Damage just doesn't fit with a Bomb. It's not precise enough.

I played a Core Rulebook Warpriest of Cayden Cailean through Extinction Curse, Levels 1-20. I had a fantastic time with Ellisar. He was always in the thick of it, usually as the flanking buddy of our resident Animal Instinct Barbarian. Started Str +3/Wis +3 and some Charisma for Healing Font.

He did a lot of damage with that rapier. Soaked a lot of damage with Shield Block and Replenishment of War. Buffed when the opportunity presented itself. Healed when the party needed it.

Player Core has some nice improvements for Warpriest Dedication. I would've loved Raised Symbol. Although I got some use out of Charisma skills, not needing Charisma for Font would be great. Master rapier Proficiency would've been really a really nice capper to a very fun career.

Thanks! I really like this! Then what do you recommend for 12-20 feats?

You're welcome, glad you like it! As for higher level Feats, shroudb and I are of similar mind.

Alchemist Feats:

• 12th Level: Uncanny Bombs. Shortbow Range, cover mitigation and auto-success on concealed (for throwing Bombs, at least.) Get rid of those Alchemist Goggles; why bother for just a little Splash on a miss?

• 14th: Dip back for Extend Elixir. 2 hour Quicksilver? Yes please!

• 16th: I lean more towards Advanced Efficient Alchemy (not Expanded, Efficient, oops), because there's no room in my build for Combine Elixirs but shroudb is right: Eternal Elixir is the stronger choice even so. (Eternal + Combine is really, really strong.)

• 18th: Improbable Elixirs all the way. Fly when you need it? Advanced Alchemy Haste? Survive forever on Ration Tonics? Yeah, great Feat.

• 20th: If Core Rulebook is allowed in your campaign, yeah, Perfect Mutagen is fantastic. If not, Mega Bomb is very thematic, and very useful in the right circumstances. While Alchemical Revivication is really cool, I'm not really into a Capstone that may never get used.

As for the Free Archetype stuff: My only really "gotta Take" is Dual Onslaught from Dual Weapon Warrior at 14th. If you miss with both Dual Thrower Bombs... no you didn't! Choose which one actually hit. (Hint: go for the Create Consumable Bomb if you threw one. :) )

Dual Blitz isn't really worth it, IMHO, As you need to use Quick Alchemy to load up your hands, it isn't an action saver Feat. You can just Stride, Quick Bomber, Quick Bomber in any order instead. And for a number of reasons Flensing Strike just doesn't work with Bombs.

I am a fan of Master Spotter (Investigator Archetype 12th) as Alchemists don't get Master Perception without Canny Acumen, later. Also, Skill Mastery (Investigator Archetype again) is a bit complicated, but more Master level Skills is cool. You can spare the Feats to take it a few times (you can take it up to 5.)

11-20 Bomber Alchemist with Free Archetype? That's an interesting idea.

Attributes:

• Str +0
• Dex +4 (partial)
• Con +3
• Int +5
• Wis +3

Alchemist Feats:

• 1st: Quick Bomber
• 2nd: Far Lobber
• 4th: Expanded Alchemy
• 6th: Directional Bombs
• 8th: Sticky Bomb
• 10th: Expanded Splash

Free Archetype Feats:

• 2nd: Investigator Dedication
• 4th: Investigator's Stratagem
• 6th: Basic Deduction for Known Weakness
• 8th: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
• 10th: Dual Thrower

So, 11th level is a good level for Alchemists. Major Bombs and Major Mutagens are available. Bombers get their Special Materials Versatile Vials at this level. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of stuff like Adamantine Fire or Dawnsilver Cold.

As for damage? Well, at 11th, my favourite opener, Acid Flask, is doing 1 pt Acid on a hit, with 10 points of Splash to everything within 10' or in a 15-20' Cone (I love Directional Bombs.) The Persistent Damage to the primary is 3d6+10, and the odds are good it lasts at least three rounds. Alchemist's Fire? 3d8+10 Splash for an average 23 pts on a hit with 13 pts Persistent. Frost Vial? Make the target off-guard for everybody while doing an average of 20 pts Cold (3d6 + 10 Splash.)

With the Free Archetype feats, you can be doing a Free Action Devise to get a sense of how that first Strike is gonna go. Going to miss? Use a free Quick Vial, get the 10 pts of Splash in anyways. Going to Crit? Pick a Bomb that will take advantage of that like a Dread Ampoule or a Glue Bomb.

And with Dual Thrower, if you don't have to move, you can QA two Bombs into your hands and then take advantage of it, getting to throw the 2nd Bomb (probably a Quick Vial) with a MAP of -2 instead of -5.

ottdmk wrote:

with Combine Elixirs apparently allowing combined Mutagens,

Wait, what?

What part of Combine Elixirs overrides the restrictions in the Mutagen trait or the included Polymorph trait?

Yes, you can combine Elixirs... with the Combine Elixirs feat.

If you have more than one drawback due to Combine Elixirs or a similar ability, drinking

the vial suppresses one drawback of your choice.

So yeah, apparently Combine Elixirs allows dual Mutagens.

Makes sense, when I think about it. It specifically creates a hybrid concoction. It's one Elixir that grants the effect of both, not an action compresser that lets you down two separate Elixirs at once.

Oh yeah, one last thing: All Mutagens are Elixirs. Every one of them has that trait. It's just that not all Elixirs are Mutagens. **grin**

One of the amusing notions I came up with from Player Core 2: with Combine Elixirs apparently allowing combined Mutagens, a 13th level Mutagenist could go into a fight with just Handwraps (for property runes) and nothing else.

I play a Starlit Span Magus in SoT, and it was quite mediocre before i got Imaginary Weapon online.

See, I find the difference in perspectives quite astonishing sometimes.

I did my own analysis of a bunch of ranged strike builds a while back, and the Starlit Span Magus beat them all, easily, with just Gouging Claw. So I find myself wondering, what's the point of comparison? A Giant Instinct Barbarian with a d12 two-handed weapon?

I play a couple of Magi in PFS. One's a Sparkling Targe, the other's an Inexorable Iron.

With both, I generally use the spellslots for buffs and utility, and Spellstrike with Cantrips. Gouging Claw mostly, that persistent bleed is something. I really, really like Dive and Splash. From experience with my Warpriest, it'll be great to get back to Blink Charge.

Even at L20 I'm getting 6 from Str and 8 from Legendary greater weapon specialization.

It would probably be 7 from Str with some kind of Str Apex item. Still, your point is well-taken 45 points is not 100.

The group I run in Abomination Vaults uses Recall Knowledge a lot, and has found it really, really useful. I mostly try to abide by this suggestion from the GM Core:

General vs. Unique: Some elements, such as creatures or items, might require you to draw a distinction between a general concept and a unique individual, such as “pirates” vs. “Tessa Fairwind, the Hurricane Queen” or “a harrow deck” vs. “the Deck of Harrowed Tales.” When a PC tries to Recall Knowledge, let them choose whether to ask about the general category or the unique person or item, and determine the DC and specifics based on that choice. If the unique character or item is famous enough, the DC might even be easier than for the general topic!

I find most things my players run into have something general to fall back on.

We enjoy it, if only for the comical value of having a PC claim something truly outrageous and we all get the chance to play along. So our arcane expert RK'd the dragon and found out it's a vegetarian. That's good for at least a half hour of ribbing the player who failed while our characters act out believing it.

My group is much the same way.

I think Crashing Slam is a decent upgrade to Slam Down. I have a hard time comparing it to other Feats, but I will say this: If two-handed is your main Combat Style, Crashing Slam is definitely of interest. The Fighter in the Abomination Vaults campaign I run has made a lot of use of Slam Down... I would not be surprised to see him take Crashing Slam at 10th.

Seriously, SEVERAL cantrips lost the Attack trait with the Remaster, so might have well rectify this for an explosive result.

Well, that's one way. The other way would be to create some new Defense: AC spells in Impossible Magic.

If you compare the average Critical damage of a Deadly d10 weapon and a Fatal d10 weapon of the same base damage size, the Fatal weapon will usually reliably out-perform the Deadly one.

Compare, for example, the Short Bow (Deadly d10) with the Dueling Pistol (Fatal d10). This is just base weapon damage with the expected potency runes.

From levels 1-3 the bow averages 11 to the gun's 15.
L4-11, 19 bow - 27 gun.
L12-18, 31 bow - 37 gun.
L19-20, 44 bow - 49 gun.

Now,the bow has a faster firing rate, so it will probably outdamage the gun in the long run. But on an attack by attack basis, the gun will match or outperform the bow.

The thing is at that point why bother having each ancestry have their own HP boost then? 4 HP is only a noticeable difference at 1st level, could probably save you at 2nd level, and pretty much not matter at all from 3rd level onwards.

Because I have an instinctive hatred of "one true builds", and I don't want the choice of Ancestry to be more impactful. I very much appreciate that you can start off as "the toughest", but that ultimately it doesn't really matter much.

I much prefer the current system, where a Halfling Barbarian is just 4 HP lifetime removed from a Minotaur Barbarian if both invest in the same Attributes and Feats.

For efficiency's sake, the most I'd go for is three: a Collar activation on Initiative followed up by a first round Combine Elixirs.

It does raise the hilarious idea of a Mutagenist entering battle with only Handwraps of Mighty Blows for a magic item.

(Using Bestial for offense with Drakeheart and Sanguine for defense, topped up with two-hour-long Bravo's Brews to handle Will Saves.)

One thing I find quite interesting is that in PF2e Remastered, spontaneous casters can't Counterspell without picking up Witch or Wizard dedication. When they reprinted Sorcerer, they removed Counterspell as a Feat.

(Yes, yes, I know all about the compatibility. However, I do find it interesting that anyone new to the game will not see Counterspell as a built-in option for Sorcerers.)

Rounding You may need to calculate a fraction of a value, like halving damage. Always round down unless otherwise specified. For example, if a spell deals 7 damage and a creature takes half damage from it, that creature takes 3 damage.

Just a FYI.

This got me thinking, what if the Toxicologist had an ability (probably upper level) to create toxins that affect creatures normally immune to poisons. Maybe they could only affect a specific sub-type.

Just a thought.

Field Benefit ... In addition, you flexibly mix acidic and poisonous alchemical compounds. Your infused poisons can affect creatures immune to poison. A creature takes acid damage instead of poison damage from your infused poisons if either the creature is immune to poison or that would be more detrimental to the creature (as determined by the GM). Typically, this benefit applies when the creature has an immunity, resistance, or weakness to one of the damage types.

Interesting. Don't think I'd allow it... even though Extend Blood Magic grants a Spellshape, it's a Focus Spell; i.e. you're still using Cast a Spell, which is a different thing from a Spellshape Action. So I wouldn't let you cast it as a free Action.

Putting all that aside, don't forget that Explosion of Power damage has a Basic Reflex Save. At 20th level, a lot of the time you're going to be getting less than the average damage.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like some of the problems might be to simply remove the following line from Psychic Dedication:

If you already have a focus pool, increase the number of points in your pool by 1.

If you don't have a focus pool, you gain a point. So that way you can use the Amp you've gained. If you do have a pool, you have a new option, but your resources don't go up. Kind of reminds me of how they do the Basic Alchemy Benefits: if you get them from more than one place, you have more ways to use Vials, but you don't increase the number of vials.

On the Magus side: Well, I've never really seen the need for damaging focus spells to use with Spellstrike. Heck, I'd probably go as far as banning the use of focus spells with Spellstrike. Spellstrikes are devastating enough with just Cantrips, IMHO.

ottdmk wrote:

I rather like Assurance: Arcana for Wizards. You can generally auto-learn max Rank spells one level after they become available, starting at Level 3. The two exceptions are Rank 4 spells, which you can Assurance Learn right from Level 7, and Rank 6 spells, which you can't Assurance Learn until L15. Understandably, you cannot Assurance Learn a Rank 10 spell either.

This assumes you're bumping Arcana at the earliest opportunity for your entire career.

Combined with Magical Shorthand, you auto-crit succeed and get spells at half price too, though not max rank ones.

It even works with Max Rank spells... most of the time. It's just delayed a level.

For example: I plan for my PFS Wizard (currently 1st level) to take Assurance: Arcana as his 4th level Skill Feat. At 4th level, he can cast 2nd Rank Spells. The DC to learn such a spell is usually 18. (Player Core pg 231.) Assurance will give you an 18 at this level (4 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so you can auto-learn the Spell (for half price if you have Magical Shorthand, as you mention.)

5th level, you gain access to 3rd Rank Spells, but the DC is 20 and Assurance only gives you 19 (5 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so it doesn't work... but it will at 6th level.

This holds true for most of your career, with the following exceptions:

• The DC for Rank 4 Spells is 23, which Assurance gives you at 7th level when they become available.
• The DC for Rank 7 Spells is 31. You can't auto-learn a 7th Rank Spell until you hit 15th level. If it followed the trend it would be doable at 14th level.
• With a DC of 41, you will never Assurance auto-learn a Rank 10 spell.

I rather like Assurance: Arcana for Wizards. You can generally auto-learn max Rank spells one level after they become available, starting at Level 3. The two exceptions are Rank 4 spells, which you can Assurance Learn right from Level 7, and Rank 6 spells, which you can't Assurance Learn until L15. Understandably, you cannot Assurance Learn a Rank 10 spell either.

This assumes you're bumping Arcana at the earliest opportunity for your entire career.

What seems pretty clear to me is that moving away from the static DC would require a massive readjustment of everything. I'm not sure if that's a practical option outside of an Edition change.

Not an argument, really, but a small correction: You can't Channel Smite and Cry of Destruction on the same turn.

Still, if your Warpriest has been spending gold on Property Runes, they could be doing 4d10+9d10+3d6+7 on that Channel Smite (+8 if they have a Str Apex.) Heck, maybe you've got Lasting Armament for another 2d6 Spirit.

I'll admit to preferring Heal for my Font over Harm though.

Anyways, enough Warpriest fanboy'ing for one post...

I've been busier than expected lately... keep meaning to start making a whole bunch of replies to all of this. Been a really interesting round of discussion.

Just wanted to quickly mention this: While not an official source, the Foundry PF2 devs have implemented Sticky Bomb as detailed by Blue_frog: the Bomber's L5 Field Discovery and Expanded Splash both increase the amount of Persistent Damage.

I've run some math on this... it's not exactly world-shaking damage. But it's enough to keep Bombers right in the pack of those who aren't combining Cantrips with Ranged Strikes. Which is decent company to be in, IMHO.

So, as might be expected, Blue_frog's What classes got the biggest buffs in remaster ? thread got a fair amount of Alchemist discussion.

I had meant to chime in with my experiences, but I didn't get to it, and the Alchemist discussion wasn't really fitting with the original topic. So I thought I'd create my own thread.

I play two Alchemists in PFS, a L12 Bomber and a L11 Mutagenist. I've converted both of them to PC2 rules.

Generally speaking, the Class is still fun for me. I do miss being able to make a lot of stuff every daily prep, but with some adjustment the fun is still there.

The Bomber: I make four Quicksilvers, a Darkvision Elixir, an Antiplague, and a couple of Antidotes every day. As I didn't need Calculated Splash anymore, took Efficient Alchemy as the L4 Feat, so 11 AA items each day. The three left over? Those I'm open to what the party needs, but I've tended towards Bravo's Brews.

Versatile Vials? Out of Combat, Versatile Vials are amazing. However, if an Encounter seems likely, I hoard them. Can't use Additives without VVs, and the Boss fights at these levels tend to go pretty long. Almost ran out a couple of times.

While I'm not terribly thrilled with Quick Vials, I gotta admit that the addition of Special Materials has helped.

As for the Mutagenist: I have a rather different approach with him. Namely, making him really, really hard to kill. I'm regularly burning three Versatile Vials every ten minutes (thank you, Powerful Alchemy) to keep up Bravo's Brew, Eagle-Eye Elixir and Cheetah's Elixir all the time. Start of combat, hit the Collar for a thirty minute Bestial Mutagen and ten temp HP. I do like the Mutagenist Field Benefit.

Start of Combat is usually a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing super Tonic. Then it's into the fight.

I haven't used the Field Discovery yet, but I'm glad it's there. Failing a Fort Save can often ruin the encounter. As for the Field Vials ability (and the advanced effect: I haven't really used it yet.

I usually have two Versatile Vials left over once Encounter Mode hits, and I am a firm subscriber to the belief that Versatile Vials are Tools... so I could use one or both for the Field Vials abilities at an Action a pop. Thing is, I'm used to just accepting the Drawback of Bestial... and the Drawback of PC2 Bestial isn't as bothersome as the Core Rulebook variety was. I might run into a situation where the Physical Damage Resistence might be useful though. I dunno... we shall see, I guess. Wish I got to play these characters more often, but high level PFS Scenarios don't grow on trees.

Going forward, it's going to be trickier with the Mutagenist. See, I spent two Class Feats to get Martial Artist Dedication and Follow-Up Strike. Which has been great, don't get me wrong... Follow-Up Strike when you have a 3d12 Astral Shock Deadly d10 Bite attack is absolutely fantastic. Thing is, it leaves him a bit short on Advanced Alchemy items. He has a Familiar, and I do take Extra Alchemy daily, but that's only ten items total. Come L13 I'm going to have to make some adjustments to add a second Mutagen into the routine. Might try to take Efficient Alchemy at L14 to get a couple of more a day.

So yeah, I consider both of those Research Fields to be in a pretty good place. I have some thoughts on Chirurgeon and Toxicologist as well, but I don't actually play them, so I think I'll just leave it at this for now.

Thoughts?

If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them.

Canny Acumen won't help with that... at least, it won't help until Level 17. Canny Acumen bumps to Expert on taking it, and then Master at L17.

Having played a high-level Wizard during my last in-person campaign (which we will eventually return to, I'm confident) I swear by index cards for spells. I picked up a bunch of small ones from a dollar store and turned them into my spellbook. Every time I'd cast a spell, I'd just put that card to the side. They can be as detailed or as simple as you want.

It still applies, just not nearly as often. There are occasions where a poison's DC is actually better than an Alchemist's Class DC at that level.

This was a topic on the /r/pathfinder2e sub-Reddit a couple of days ago. So I guess I'll just chime in on my favourite armor property rune: Ready. I've had a few too many middle of the night ambushes I guess.

<Some great analysis work on Mono Wood>

I really enjoyed this, but I feel compelled to point out one flaw in your analysis.

You can't use Weapon Infusion with the free Elemental Blast from Channel Elements.

Your kinetic aura activates, and as a part of this

action, you can use a 1-action Elemental Blast or a 1-action stance impulse.

If your next action is an Elemental Blast, choose a weapon shape for it to take.

The Elemental Blast is a subordinate action of Channel Elements. You can't Weapon Infusion Free Action and then Channel Elements; that doesn't meet the "your next action" clause of Weapon Infusion. And you can't insert Weapon Infusion between Channel Elements and its subordinate Blast either.

I gotta say, looking at a mono Water build... I think there's a lot of potential there. They've got some neat stuff! Throw in some appropriate Class Feats (I see real potential in a Safe Elements/Winter Sleet combo) and yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd have a solid build.

Agonarchy wrote:

Tailwind is powerful enough that many people consider a Wand of Tailwind to be a default part of a loadout, so any expansion of it should be limited. I would nerf the duration to 10 minutes for alternative speeds.

Yeah, it's very common for a character to spend a single general feat on Trick Magic item and invest in having a trained skill in Arcane or Nature in order to be able to activate a wand, with it having a 1 hr duration its on the verge of too good.

Doesn't even need a General Feat. As it has both the General and Skill traits, you can spend a Skill Feat to acquire Trick Magic Item.

While still fun to play, and stronger in some ways, I do kinda mourn the support Alchemist.

At the end of Outlaws of Alkenstar, my Core Rulebook L10 Bomber was handing out 4 Elixirs of Life per day as emergency healing, one for each of us. He was giving 4 Silvertongue Elixirs to the Bard, 4 Numbing Tonics to the Inventor, and a couple of Life Shot bullets to the Vanguard. And he had enough Batches of Infused Reagents leftover to have 4 Quicksilver Mutagens, 9 Bombs and had three Batches left over for Alchemical Rabbits through Quick Alchemy.

(In case you were wondering, he leaned pretty hard on his Perpetual Infusion Bombs with the Sticky Bomb feat. So much fun.)

Just can't do that anymore. I have a PC2 L12 Alchemist Bomber... he can do 11 Items a day in Advanced Alchemy. His Versatile Vials he saves for Sticky Bombs... and he's needed to.

So yeah, RIP support Alchemist.

You've missed my point.

There is no evidence that Mutagens have penalties because they stack with Spells. That is a supposition that you have advanced, repeatedly, with absolutely no evidence.

Never said that, don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm quoting your words.

My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff.

I didn't say that they have negatives because they stack, I argued that whomever says "it's ok to have penalties since they stack" (like you) is flat out wrong.

"Stacking" should never be a base of balance considerations cause it's two-way.

I'm not actually arguing that it's ok to have penalties because they stack.

I'm simply saying it's ok Mutagens have penalties, period. That what they have to offer is worth the tradeoff.

I've also stated that I like that they stack. Something I appreciate every time I'm lucky enough to be in a party that does stuff like Bless or Courageous Anthem.

And again: Heroism.

Still same duration as your Quick Alchemy, still gives you a +1 to ALL saves, not just Reflex. Still gives you +1 to ALL skills not only the 2 out of 3 you use.

And by midlevels, trivial cost to have low-rank slots/scrolls of it and not waste your few Quick alchemy vials on.

You are, in my opinion, over-simplifying. Particularly when it comes to Alchemists.

Firstly, you don't have to use Quick Alchemy for Mutagens. It's just as easy to use Advanced Alchemy, and that is indeed my preferred route. Advanced Alchemy opens up Collar use (although I don't anymore with my Bomber, because I prefer full duration Quicksilver.) The only advantage of using Quick Alchemy is to keep the Mutagen up at all times, and that's not really necessary. On my Mutagenist, I prefer keeping three Elixirs going and saving Bestial for combat with a Collar. My Bomber saves all his Versatile Vials for Sticky Bombs.

+1 to all skills is, indeed, very nice. However, there is a serious question of whether or not the skill is relevant in an Encounter. For example, my Bomber is only Trained in Athletics and is Str +0. So, he's never actually used Athletics for anything in an Encounter. There are a lot more Skills like that than not, to be honest.

Acrobatics, on the other hand, is Dex based. So, while it's only Trained as well, it's come up a bit more often... usually for Balance actions or an occasional Tumble Through. It's still not enough to invest in a pair of Blast Slippers or Greater Arboreal Boots... and thanks to Quicksilver, I don't have to.

Similar for Stealth, which he is a Master in. Yes, you can invest in a Greater Shadow Rune and then get +1 from Heroism... but again, I don't have to.

There is also the problem of how to add Heroism to your routine. The least costly way is Trick Magic Item, as it's just a Skill Feat. Problem there is that using it is a 3-Action activity, which is pretty harsh. Not bad if you have a chance to pre-buff, but that is too rare for my tastes. These days with Quicksilver it's usually 1 Action (have Quicksilver in hand) or 0 Actions (because it's been less than an hour since the last time he took it.) My Mutagenist uses a Collar because of their Field Benefit.

Superior would be something like Witch Dedication with an Occult or Divine Patron. The feat cost is a bit steeper though, as it's a Class Feat.

Then there's the source of the spell. Yes, 30 gp a pop eventually becomes cheap, but the key word is "eventually." The scrolls themselves don't even become available until 5th level. I might be overly cautious, but I prep for four encounters a day. That's potentially 120 gp per day. It's going to be a while for that to become affordable.There are other expenses to consider. My Mutagenist has fully invested Handwraps of Mighty Blows because of access to Property Runes.

Meanwhile, with just the Class Abilities, my Bomber has been on Quicksilver for multiple Encounters per day for no cost in either gold or feats, since L1.

So, am I correct in thinking that the argument is: as a permanent item (weapon rune, skill item) + Heroism is stronger than just a Mutagen, with no Drawback, therefore Mutagens are simply not worth it?

I find that fascinating. I suppose if the choice were either/or, I could understand that.

But despite the theoretical argument that Mutagens are penalized because Item Bonuses stack with Status Bonuses... The fact is, they do stack.

Which is a very nice thing for those of us, like myself, who appreciate Mutagens.

I mean, my Mutagenist is 11th level now. From now on Bestial gives +1 over what any permanent Athletics item can give him. From 15th to 19th, when he catches up Str wise, he'll be the best there is, outside of Status Bonuses. He'll also be better at Striking than anyone other than a Fighter or Gunslinger. So that makes him a pretty decent candidate for Heroism, right? That's the usual strategy: cast Heroism on those who have an edge already, to make that edge even bigger?

I'm not fully qualified to determine whether or not Mutagens are good design. But I've gone over the benefits and Drawbacks a lot, and in most cases, I've decided that they're worth it. In the right circumstances.

I've used Quicksilver and Bestial in dozens of encounters. I've never regretted it. I've never had anyone take me up on it, but Cognitive on Casters can be a good fit. Bards and Swashbucklers love Silvertongue, as long as they aren't big into Recall Knowledge. Frontliners tend to still like Juggernaut, even though Numbing Tonic has ate its lunch a bit. Serene is the only one that I don't think has a niche in Encounters, although I suppose if you knew you were going up against a lot of Mental effects, maybe.

Outside of Encounters... well, I don't think anyone can deny how useful Mutagens are outside of Encounters.

I suppose this is a long-winded way of stating: using Mutagens is a choice. In my experience, when used on the right build, it's a choice that has paid off many, many times. I can't say whether it's good design, but it's effective, it's fun, and I'm glad the option is there.

6. You make the downside a Item penalty, a penalty that is used practically nowhere else (so we keep forgetting about them).

You're mistaken here, btw. Take a closer look... Mutagens generally have Untyped penalties. They're meant to stack with everything.

Ah, a discussion on Mutagen design! It must be my lucky day. Personally, I love, love, love Mutagens... but you have to match the right Mutagen to the right Class.

Let's look at my personal favourite: Quicksilver. Quicksilver is probably the most disparaged Mutagen due to its Drawbacks... and the Drawbacks are substantial, I agree. Where I disagree is whether they're too harsh.

For one thing, I see a lot of "you're tanking your fort save" comments. I disagree. From levels 1-8 a lot of Classes are only Trained in Fort Saves. Which is the same level of Fort Save of an Alchemist on Quicksilver. Levels 9-10 are a bit harsh... lowest Fort Saves in the game, unfortunately. But then you hit 11th level, and you end up with Expert Fort saves with a Success->Crit Success bump built in. 10.3 Classes have Expert Fort saves from 11-20, barring Canny Acumen investment... pretty decent company, IMHO. Only the Rogue gets the same Bump.

As for the damage, well, it takes you from an 8 HP/level Class to a 6 HP/level. So, the same as Psychics, Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards. However do they survive? </sarcasm>. If you're using Quicksilver, you should be Ranged. Unless you're a Dex based Fighter, I suppose. Or maybe a Raging Thrower Barbarian. Going from a 10 HP to 8 HP is ok... I play a Melee Mutagenist, after all, and survive just fine. (12 to 10 would be easy.)

And what do you get in return? Well, there's that Item Bonus to Dex Based Strikes. Everybody knows that one.

There's the Speed bonus. Don't hear as much about that one. Most folks dismiss it because, well, Tailwind wands. I tend to look at it differently... I'm using Quicksilver. I don't need to invest in Trick Magic Item. Besides, my Bomber is 12th level now. Quicksilver is faster.

There's the Item Bonus to Acrobatics, Stealth & Thievery. Which are, generally, just better than alternatives. They come in earlier, they're +1 stronger, they apply to all uses of the Skill instead of just a subset... you get the picture.

And finally, there's the bonus to Reflex Saves. I almost never hear people discussing that one. I mean, it's +2 better than anything else for 11 out of 20 levels. The rest of the time it's +1.

Forget tying to use them in Soceity Play.

You & I have vastly different experiences with Mutagens and Society Play. Especially since Remaster.

Cognitive Mutagen basically steals the show in Society Play. +X Bonus to any Recall Knowledge Skill. Plus, you cannot Crit Fail the check. There's always a lot of RK checks in every Scenario. And that's just levels 1-10.

Level 11+, Greater Cognitive comes into play, along with being able to customize it on the spot with Quick Alchemy. Last time I played my Bomber, we ran into a Void Energy effect. So I whipped up at QA Greater Cognitive, and informed the GM I was now trained in Void Energy Lore for then next 10 minutes. With a +5 Int Bonus and a +3 Item Bonus, plus I could not Crit Fail. The entire table was laughing with glee at that one.

Funnily enough, as much as I hate the duration nerf of Quick Alchemy'd Elixirs, the change has actually increased the popularity of Mutagens in the Society games I've played and run. People seem to be more ok with Drawbacks if they only last ten minutes, it seems.

One of my favourite examples of game concepts combining in unexpected ways with "the real world" (or stuff like kingdom building) is the Bottled Monstrosity Worm Vial.

This thing can create a 40' tunnel through solid rock in two Actions. The applications in construction are enormous. I consider it to be the biggest argument against Alchemists being able to use Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy to create Bottled Monstrosities.

Our forever GM wanted to try 2nd Edition, so we agreed... and ported over our party of L12 D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder 2e.

We enjoyed it, so we decided to stick with it. Then I decided to try out Pathfinder Society 2e play.

Pathfinder has been my main hobby ever since.

When I wrote my Alchemical Items guide, I decided to go with a common sense approach. If it's a food item, and it's Alchemical, it counts as an Alchemical Food.

So, IMHO, Bravo's Brew is the first Alchemical Food (from Core Rulebook), as it it has the line "This Flask of foaming beer.

So, I count the following as Alchemical Foods (outside of Treasure Vault and the Tian Xia Character Guide.):

• All the Alchmical Tapas from The Mask & Mirror in Lost Omens: Grand Bazaar
  
• Boulderhead Bock
• Bravo's Brew
  
• Dark Pepper Powder
  
• Grindlegrub Steak
  
• Lastwall Soup
  
• Moon Radish Soup
  
• Saboteur's Friend
  

I find myself thinking that the reason it ultimately will never happen is that a 15th level Runelord, having indulged the Sin of Greed for so, so long... would just find the rate of return too low.

RAW? Nothing. On a practical basis? Time.

Chrysopoetic Curse is a 7th Rank Spell, meaning a Wand of Chrysopoetic Curse is a 15th Level item costing 6,500 gp.

As the Curse leaves behind 2d6 gp worth of gold flakes and dust (unless the target Critically Succeeded on the Saving Throw), at an average of 7 gp per Casting you would need to cast the Curse 929 times to afford a Wand. At 15th level you could cast the Spell 8 times a day with Drain Bonded Item. So, that's 116 days, with you devoting all your Rank 7 and Rank 8 spellslots, plus your use of Drain Bonded Item, every day.

Is it doable? Yes. Seems like a really boring way to live your life though.

The benefit is that you can be casting the Composition Cantrip while doing any Exploration Activity. So you don't have to be using Repeat a Spell... You can do this while using Defend, or Search, or even Avoid Notice (although I wouldn't blame any GM for disallowing that one.)

Errenor wrote:

Easl wrote:

My money's on them getting it from ... PFS feedback...

As a reminder, PFS reports include nothing about characters, not even their level. Well, yes, there's a name.

Really?

Every time I sign up to play PFS I have to give:
Character Name
Character Class
Character Level
Character's Faction
Character's PFS #

Now I don't know if anything except the PFS# is reported.
I've only ever played, so it may be that the GM only needs to report the #

I GM PFS2e. When you report, it's Character Name, Faction, PFS Player # and Character #.

Class is never mentioned in the Reporting. Sign-up sheets ask for it because it helps the GMs prep for the games.

I have a Level 15 Wizard in a friend's homebrew campaign. Started him at Level 12... we brought the campaign over from D&D 3.5 at that level (the GM wanted to try Pathfinder, and, well, keeping the GM happy is a priority when he's been running for 10+ years.)

I've been giving a lot of thought to playing a Wizard in PFS. Kinda based on my other Wizard, but making some different choices. For one thing, I went Rogue Dedication with the other guy. I think I'd like to go straight Wizard this time.

One thing I've noticed: For the early levels, I think Wizards have the edge on Cantrips. For the first few levels Cantrips are, IMHO, pretty important.

Any Wizard can, of course, swap out their Prepared Cantrips every day. They share that capability with the Witch. The Sorcerer can't do that, at least not until later levels (when they're able to rely more on Spell Slots anyways.)

I mean, I like Eat Fire... Fire damage is common, it's a Cantrip that uses a Reaction (and a 1st level Wizard doesn't have a lot of uses for Reactions, usually), it has a fun secondary effect... what's not to like? Still though, if I know I'm going to be facing the zombie master, I'd rather slot something else.

By a strict reading, Spell Substitution doesn't work with Cantrips, as it specifies spell slots... but really, I think it's not a big stretch for the Thesis that enables swapping prepared spells to be able to swap a prepared Cantrip.

Spell Blending? While yes, it doesn't work to get high level slots for a while, you can still trade any slot to prepare two additional Cantrips that day. I can see value in the early levels for doing that.

Staff Nexus: While I agree with everyone who thinks that the whole "spend a 1st Rank slot to charge a single 1st Rank spell from the Staff" is pointless... it still will give an additional Cantrip (and you don't have to charge the Staff for that.)

The other two Theses don't really help in that way. I'm not a big Familiar fan, so I've never really examined what Improved Familiar Attunement really gives you.

I think though, that I'm going to stick with Experimental Spellshaping. I like starting with Reach Spell (going to go Human and grab Spellbook Prodigy as well.) My 15th level guy has gotten a lot of use out being able to swap between Spellshaping Feats. So that'll be fun at 4th.

So I'm looking at going Ars Magica, and I think it will work out quite well. Command is a fun School spell. Never noticed before that it shuts down Reactions until the Command is obeyed. Kinda cool.

One thing I do like about the new Schools over the old: the old Schools didn't give you free Spells in your Spellbook. The new ones do. I can appreciate that.

Third action, I have some options. Move, as always. Cast Shield if I prep it. (I do like Shield.) If I'm stuck close to the action, Protective Wards is there. Want to keep my distance? Reach Spell.

Anyways, I'm rambling.

Ok, this sounds decent. A Munitions Crafter without access to normal firearm supplies can make 16 Black Powder rounds a day from 1st level. That's plenty for a single day... heck, 12 would probably be more than enough. Then options increase with level, allowing the use of Alchemical Ammunition in more circumstances.

I'm ok with that. The Alchemical Ammos are neat; somebody should be using them. Not like Alchemists are going to.

(IMHO, any Alchemist going Ranged should simply focus on Bombs.)

I'm unsure of Munitions Machinist. Adding in Quick Alchemy seems sure to disrupt a Gunslingers action economy.

My big question is: Does Munitions Crafter have a larger batch size for Level 0 Black Powder rounds?

If not, making 4 pieces of ammo at first, ramping up to 14 at twentieth... it's in an odd place.

I started playing PFS games online during the Pandemic. I've really enjoyed the experience, for a number of reasons.

1) It's hard to get into a long running campaign. I'm lucky... I've been in two so far.

2) I got into my second long running group (we played through Extinction Curse and Outlaws of Alkenstar over a couple of years) because I met the GM through online PFS play.

3) Fitting in a 4-5 hour gaming session every now and then has been relatively painless.

4) I usually enjoy the plotlines.

5) I've "met" some genuinely imaginative, out of the box players. PFS tends to encourage trying out different concepts, ones that might not hold up over a long campaign but are really, really fun.

6) I enjoy GM'ing, and PFS Scenarios fit my GM'ing style quite well. I like bringing life to NPCs, but I suck at coming up with plots. Making homebrew campaigns is not for me.

I owe a lot to online PFS. I credit it with contributing significantly to my continued sanity during the height of the Covid pandemic.

Edited to add: While I realize it can contribute to "roll play", I like that PFS puts a lot of emphasis on Skill Checks and Recall Knowledge Checks. You don't want to neglect either Combat or Out of Combat abilities, no matter what you're playing, because both will definitely come up.

Though I do believe Shove technically does let you choose a direction, As long as the creature ends up further away.

That's always been my interpretation. Away on a diagonal is still away (as one example.)