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ottdmk wrote:

I rather like Assurance: Arcana for Wizards. You can generally auto-learn max Rank spells one level after they become available, starting at Level 3. The two exceptions are Rank 4 spells, which you can Assurance Learn right from Level 7, and Rank 6 spells, which you can't Assurance Learn until L15. Understandably, you cannot Assurance Learn a Rank 10 spell either.

This assumes you're bumping Arcana at the earliest opportunity for your entire career.

Combined with Magical Shorthand, you auto-crit succeed and get spells at half price too, though not max rank ones.

It even works with Max Rank spells... most of the time. It's just delayed a level.

For example: I plan for my PFS Wizard (currently 1st level) to take Assurance: Arcana as his 4th level Skill Feat. At 4th level, he can cast 2nd Rank Spells. The DC to learn such a spell is usually 18. (Player Core pg 231.) Assurance will give you an 18 at this level (4 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so you can auto-learn the Spell (for half price if you have Magical Shorthand, as you mention.)

5th level, you gain access to 3rd Rank Spells, but the DC is 20 and Assurance only gives you 19 (5 (level) + 4 (Expert) + 10) so it doesn't work... but it will at 6th level.

This holds true for most of your career, with the following exceptions:

• The DC for Rank 4 Spells is 23, which Assurance gives you at 7th level when they become available.
• The DC for Rank 7 Spells is 31. You can't auto-learn a 7th Rank Spell until you hit 15th level. If it followed the trend it would be doable at 14th level.
• With a DC of 41, you will never Assurance auto-learn a Rank 10 spell.

I rather like Assurance: Arcana for Wizards. You can generally auto-learn max Rank spells one level after they become available, starting at Level 3. The two exceptions are Rank 4 spells, which you can Assurance Learn right from Level 7, and Rank 6 spells, which you can't Assurance Learn until L15. Understandably, you cannot Assurance Learn a Rank 10 spell either.

This assumes you're bumping Arcana at the earliest opportunity for your entire career.

What seems pretty clear to me is that moving away from the static DC would require a massive readjustment of everything. I'm not sure if that's a practical option outside of an Edition change.

Not an argument, really, but a small correction: You can't Channel Smite and Cry of Destruction on the same turn.

Still, if your Warpriest has been spending gold on Property Runes, they could be doing 4d10+9d10+3d6+7 on that Channel Smite (+8 if they have a Str Apex.) Heck, maybe you've got Lasting Armament for another 2d6 Spirit.

I'll admit to preferring Heal for my Font over Harm though.

Anyways, enough Warpriest fanboy'ing for one post...

I've been busier than expected lately... keep meaning to start making a whole bunch of replies to all of this. Been a really interesting round of discussion.

Just wanted to quickly mention this: While not an official source, the Foundry PF2 devs have implemented Sticky Bomb as detailed by Blue_frog: the Bomber's L5 Field Discovery and Expanded Splash both increase the amount of Persistent Damage.

I've run some math on this... it's not exactly world-shaking damage. But it's enough to keep Bombers right in the pack of those who aren't combining Cantrips with Ranged Strikes. Which is decent company to be in, IMHO.

So, as might be expected, Blue_frog's What classes got the biggest buffs in remaster ? thread got a fair amount of Alchemist discussion.

I had meant to chime in with my experiences, but I didn't get to it, and the Alchemist discussion wasn't really fitting with the original topic. So I thought I'd create my own thread.

I play two Alchemists in PFS, a L12 Bomber and a L11 Mutagenist. I've converted both of them to PC2 rules.

Generally speaking, the Class is still fun for me. I do miss being able to make a lot of stuff every daily prep, but with some adjustment the fun is still there.

The Bomber: I make four Quicksilvers, a Darkvision Elixir, an Antiplague, and a couple of Antidotes every day. As I didn't need Calculated Splash anymore, took Efficient Alchemy as the L4 Feat, so 11 AA items each day. The three left over? Those I'm open to what the party needs, but I've tended towards Bravo's Brews.

Versatile Vials? Out of Combat, Versatile Vials are amazing. However, if an Encounter seems likely, I hoard them. Can't use Additives without VVs, and the Boss fights at these levels tend to go pretty long. Almost ran out a couple of times.

While I'm not terribly thrilled with Quick Vials, I gotta admit that the addition of Special Materials has helped.

As for the Mutagenist: I have a rather different approach with him. Namely, making him really, really hard to kill. I'm regularly burning three Versatile Vials every ten minutes (thank you, Powerful Alchemy) to keep up Bravo's Brew, Eagle-Eye Elixir and Cheetah's Elixir all the time. Start of combat, hit the Collar for a thirty minute Bestial Mutagen and ten temp HP. I do like the Mutagenist Field Benefit.

Start of Combat is usually a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing super Tonic. Then it's into the fight.

I haven't used the Field Discovery yet, but I'm glad it's there. Failing a Fort Save can often ruin the encounter. As for the Field Vials ability (and the advanced effect: I haven't really used it yet.

I usually have two Versatile Vials left over once Encounter Mode hits, and I am a firm subscriber to the belief that Versatile Vials are Tools... so I could use one or both for the Field Vials abilities at an Action a pop. Thing is, I'm used to just accepting the Drawback of Bestial... and the Drawback of PC2 Bestial isn't as bothersome as the Core Rulebook variety was. I might run into a situation where the Physical Damage Resistence might be useful though. I dunno... we shall see, I guess. Wish I got to play these characters more often, but high level PFS Scenarios don't grow on trees.

Going forward, it's going to be trickier with the Mutagenist. See, I spent two Class Feats to get Martial Artist Dedication and Follow-Up Strike. Which has been great, don't get me wrong... Follow-Up Strike when you have a 3d12 Astral Shock Deadly d10 Bite attack is absolutely fantastic. Thing is, it leaves him a bit short on Advanced Alchemy items. He has a Familiar, and I do take Extra Alchemy daily, but that's only ten items total. Come L13 I'm going to have to make some adjustments to add a second Mutagen into the routine. Might try to take Efficient Alchemy at L14 to get a couple of more a day.

So yeah, I consider both of those Research Fields to be in a pretty good place. I have some thoughts on Chirurgeon and Toxicologist as well, but I don't actually play them, so I think I'll just leave it at this for now.

Thoughts?

If no one take one of these classes and doesn't take Canny Acumen as perception, the party is unable to detect most hazards after level 10. These hazards usually requires a master in perception in order to notice them.

Canny Acumen won't help with that... at least, it won't help until Level 17. Canny Acumen bumps to Expert on taking it, and then Master at L17.

Having played a high-level Wizard during my last in-person campaign (which we will eventually return to, I'm confident) I swear by index cards for spells. I picked up a bunch of small ones from a dollar store and turned them into my spellbook. Every time I'd cast a spell, I'd just put that card to the side. They can be as detailed or as simple as you want.

It still applies, just not nearly as often. There are occasions where a poison's DC is actually better than an Alchemist's Class DC at that level.

This was a topic on the /r/pathfinder2e sub-Reddit a couple of days ago. So I guess I'll just chime in on my favourite armor property rune: Ready. I've had a few too many middle of the night ambushes I guess.

<Some great analysis work on Mono Wood>

I really enjoyed this, but I feel compelled to point out one flaw in your analysis.

You can't use Weapon Infusion with the free Elemental Blast from Channel Elements.

Your kinetic aura activates, and as a part of this

action, you can use a 1-action Elemental Blast or a 1-action stance impulse.

If your next action is an Elemental Blast, choose a weapon shape for it to take.

The Elemental Blast is a subordinate action of Channel Elements. You can't Weapon Infusion Free Action and then Channel Elements; that doesn't meet the "your next action" clause of Weapon Infusion. And you can't insert Weapon Infusion between Channel Elements and its subordinate Blast either.

I gotta say, looking at a mono Water build... I think there's a lot of potential there. They've got some neat stuff! Throw in some appropriate Class Feats (I see real potential in a Safe Elements/Winter Sleet combo) and yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd have a solid build.

Agonarchy wrote:

Tailwind is powerful enough that many people consider a Wand of Tailwind to be a default part of a loadout, so any expansion of it should be limited. I would nerf the duration to 10 minutes for alternative speeds.

Yeah, it's very common for a character to spend a single general feat on Trick Magic item and invest in having a trained skill in Arcane or Nature in order to be able to activate a wand, with it having a 1 hr duration its on the verge of too good.

Doesn't even need a General Feat. As it has both the General and Skill traits, you can spend a Skill Feat to acquire Trick Magic Item.

While still fun to play, and stronger in some ways, I do kinda mourn the support Alchemist.

At the end of Outlaws of Alkenstar, my Core Rulebook L10 Bomber was handing out 4 Elixirs of Life per day as emergency healing, one for each of us. He was giving 4 Silvertongue Elixirs to the Bard, 4 Numbing Tonics to the Inventor, and a couple of Life Shot bullets to the Vanguard. And he had enough Batches of Infused Reagents leftover to have 4 Quicksilver Mutagens, 9 Bombs and had three Batches left over for Alchemical Rabbits through Quick Alchemy.

(In case you were wondering, he leaned pretty hard on his Perpetual Infusion Bombs with the Sticky Bomb feat. So much fun.)

Just can't do that anymore. I have a PC2 L12 Alchemist Bomber... he can do 11 Items a day in Advanced Alchemy. His Versatile Vials he saves for Sticky Bombs... and he's needed to.

So yeah, RIP support Alchemist.

You've missed my point.

There is no evidence that Mutagens have penalties because they stack with Spells. That is a supposition that you have advanced, repeatedly, with absolutely no evidence.

Never said that, don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm quoting your words.

My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff.

I didn't say that they have negatives because they stack, I argued that whomever says "it's ok to have penalties since they stack" (like you) is flat out wrong.

"Stacking" should never be a base of balance considerations cause it's two-way.

I'm not actually arguing that it's ok to have penalties because they stack.

I'm simply saying it's ok Mutagens have penalties, period. That what they have to offer is worth the tradeoff.

I've also stated that I like that they stack. Something I appreciate every time I'm lucky enough to be in a party that does stuff like Bless or Courageous Anthem.

And again: Heroism.

Still same duration as your Quick Alchemy, still gives you a +1 to ALL saves, not just Reflex. Still gives you +1 to ALL skills not only the 2 out of 3 you use.

And by midlevels, trivial cost to have low-rank slots/scrolls of it and not waste your few Quick alchemy vials on.

You are, in my opinion, over-simplifying. Particularly when it comes to Alchemists.

Firstly, you don't have to use Quick Alchemy for Mutagens. It's just as easy to use Advanced Alchemy, and that is indeed my preferred route. Advanced Alchemy opens up Collar use (although I don't anymore with my Bomber, because I prefer full duration Quicksilver.) The only advantage of using Quick Alchemy is to keep the Mutagen up at all times, and that's not really necessary. On my Mutagenist, I prefer keeping three Elixirs going and saving Bestial for combat with a Collar. My Bomber saves all his Versatile Vials for Sticky Bombs.

+1 to all skills is, indeed, very nice. However, there is a serious question of whether or not the skill is relevant in an Encounter. For example, my Bomber is only Trained in Athletics and is Str +0. So, he's never actually used Athletics for anything in an Encounter. There are a lot more Skills like that than not, to be honest.

Acrobatics, on the other hand, is Dex based. So, while it's only Trained as well, it's come up a bit more often... usually for Balance actions or an occasional Tumble Through. It's still not enough to invest in a pair of Blast Slippers or Greater Arboreal Boots... and thanks to Quicksilver, I don't have to.

Similar for Stealth, which he is a Master in. Yes, you can invest in a Greater Shadow Rune and then get +1 from Heroism... but again, I don't have to.

There is also the problem of how to add Heroism to your routine. The least costly way is Trick Magic Item, as it's just a Skill Feat. Problem there is that using it is a 3-Action activity, which is pretty harsh. Not bad if you have a chance to pre-buff, but that is too rare for my tastes. These days with Quicksilver it's usually 1 Action (have Quicksilver in hand) or 0 Actions (because it's been less than an hour since the last time he took it.) My Mutagenist uses a Collar because of their Field Benefit.

Superior would be something like Witch Dedication with an Occult or Divine Patron. The feat cost is a bit steeper though, as it's a Class Feat.

Then there's the source of the spell. Yes, 30 gp a pop eventually becomes cheap, but the key word is "eventually." The scrolls themselves don't even become available until 5th level. I might be overly cautious, but I prep for four encounters a day. That's potentially 120 gp per day. It's going to be a while for that to become affordable.There are other expenses to consider. My Mutagenist has fully invested Handwraps of Mighty Blows because of access to Property Runes.

Meanwhile, with just the Class Abilities, my Bomber has been on Quicksilver for multiple Encounters per day for no cost in either gold or feats, since L1.

So, am I correct in thinking that the argument is: as a permanent item (weapon rune, skill item) + Heroism is stronger than just a Mutagen, with no Drawback, therefore Mutagens are simply not worth it?

I find that fascinating. I suppose if the choice were either/or, I could understand that.

But despite the theoretical argument that Mutagens are penalized because Item Bonuses stack with Status Bonuses... The fact is, they do stack.

Which is a very nice thing for those of us, like myself, who appreciate Mutagens.

I mean, my Mutagenist is 11th level now. From now on Bestial gives +1 over what any permanent Athletics item can give him. From 15th to 19th, when he catches up Str wise, he'll be the best there is, outside of Status Bonuses. He'll also be better at Striking than anyone other than a Fighter or Gunslinger. So that makes him a pretty decent candidate for Heroism, right? That's the usual strategy: cast Heroism on those who have an edge already, to make that edge even bigger?

I'm not fully qualified to determine whether or not Mutagens are good design. But I've gone over the benefits and Drawbacks a lot, and in most cases, I've decided that they're worth it. In the right circumstances.

I've used Quicksilver and Bestial in dozens of encounters. I've never regretted it. I've never had anyone take me up on it, but Cognitive on Casters can be a good fit. Bards and Swashbucklers love Silvertongue, as long as they aren't big into Recall Knowledge. Frontliners tend to still like Juggernaut, even though Numbing Tonic has ate its lunch a bit. Serene is the only one that I don't think has a niche in Encounters, although I suppose if you knew you were going up against a lot of Mental effects, maybe.

Outside of Encounters... well, I don't think anyone can deny how useful Mutagens are outside of Encounters.

I suppose this is a long-winded way of stating: using Mutagens is a choice. In my experience, when used on the right build, it's a choice that has paid off many, many times. I can't say whether it's good design, but it's effective, it's fun, and I'm glad the option is there.

6. You make the downside a Item penalty, a penalty that is used practically nowhere else (so we keep forgetting about them).

You're mistaken here, btw. Take a closer look... Mutagens generally have Untyped penalties. They're meant to stack with everything.

Ah, a discussion on Mutagen design! It must be my lucky day. Personally, I love, love, love Mutagens... but you have to match the right Mutagen to the right Class.

Let's look at my personal favourite: Quicksilver. Quicksilver is probably the most disparaged Mutagen due to its Drawbacks... and the Drawbacks are substantial, I agree. Where I disagree is whether they're too harsh.

For one thing, I see a lot of "you're tanking your fort save" comments. I disagree. From levels 1-8 a lot of Classes are only Trained in Fort Saves. Which is the same level of Fort Save of an Alchemist on Quicksilver. Levels 9-10 are a bit harsh... lowest Fort Saves in the game, unfortunately. But then you hit 11th level, and you end up with Expert Fort saves with a Success->Crit Success bump built in. 10.3 Classes have Expert Fort saves from 11-20, barring Canny Acumen investment... pretty decent company, IMHO. Only the Rogue gets the same Bump.

As for the damage, well, it takes you from an 8 HP/level Class to a 6 HP/level. So, the same as Psychics, Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards. However do they survive? </sarcasm>. If you're using Quicksilver, you should be Ranged. Unless you're a Dex based Fighter, I suppose. Or maybe a Raging Thrower Barbarian. Going from a 10 HP to 8 HP is ok... I play a Melee Mutagenist, after all, and survive just fine. (12 to 10 would be easy.)

And what do you get in return? Well, there's that Item Bonus to Dex Based Strikes. Everybody knows that one.

There's the Speed bonus. Don't hear as much about that one. Most folks dismiss it because, well, Tailwind wands. I tend to look at it differently... I'm using Quicksilver. I don't need to invest in Trick Magic Item. Besides, my Bomber is 12th level now. Quicksilver is faster.

There's the Item Bonus to Acrobatics, Stealth & Thievery. Which are, generally, just better than alternatives. They come in earlier, they're +1 stronger, they apply to all uses of the Skill instead of just a subset... you get the picture.

And finally, there's the bonus to Reflex Saves. I almost never hear people discussing that one. I mean, it's +2 better than anything else for 11 out of 20 levels. The rest of the time it's +1.

Forget tying to use them in Soceity Play.

You & I have vastly different experiences with Mutagens and Society Play. Especially since Remaster.

Cognitive Mutagen basically steals the show in Society Play. +X Bonus to any Recall Knowledge Skill. Plus, you cannot Crit Fail the check. There's always a lot of RK checks in every Scenario. And that's just levels 1-10.

Level 11+, Greater Cognitive comes into play, along with being able to customize it on the spot with Quick Alchemy. Last time I played my Bomber, we ran into a Void Energy effect. So I whipped up at QA Greater Cognitive, and informed the GM I was now trained in Void Energy Lore for then next 10 minutes. With a +5 Int Bonus and a +3 Item Bonus, plus I could not Crit Fail. The entire table was laughing with glee at that one.

Funnily enough, as much as I hate the duration nerf of Quick Alchemy'd Elixirs, the change has actually increased the popularity of Mutagens in the Society games I've played and run. People seem to be more ok with Drawbacks if they only last ten minutes, it seems.

One of my favourite examples of game concepts combining in unexpected ways with "the real world" (or stuff like kingdom building) is the Bottled Monstrosity Worm Vial.

This thing can create a 40' tunnel through solid rock in two Actions. The applications in construction are enormous. I consider it to be the biggest argument against Alchemists being able to use Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy to create Bottled Monstrosities.

Our forever GM wanted to try 2nd Edition, so we agreed... and ported over our party of L12 D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder 2e.

We enjoyed it, so we decided to stick with it. Then I decided to try out Pathfinder Society 2e play.

Pathfinder has been my main hobby ever since.

When I wrote my Alchemical Items guide, I decided to go with a common sense approach. If it's a food item, and it's Alchemical, it counts as an Alchemical Food.

So, IMHO, Bravo's Brew is the first Alchemical Food (from Core Rulebook), as it it has the line "This Flask of foaming beer.

So, I count the following as Alchemical Foods (outside of Treasure Vault and the Tian Xia Character Guide.):

• All the Alchmical Tapas from The Mask & Mirror in Lost Omens: Grand Bazaar
  
• Boulderhead Bock
• Bravo's Brew
  
• Dark Pepper Powder
  
• Grindlegrub Steak
  
• Lastwall Soup
  
• Moon Radish Soup
  
• Saboteur's Friend
  

I find myself thinking that the reason it ultimately will never happen is that a 15th level Runelord, having indulged the Sin of Greed for so, so long... would just find the rate of return too low.

RAW? Nothing. On a practical basis? Time.

Chrysopoetic Curse is a 7th Rank Spell, meaning a Wand of Chrysopoetic Curse is a 15th Level item costing 6,500 gp.

As the Curse leaves behind 2d6 gp worth of gold flakes and dust (unless the target Critically Succeeded on the Saving Throw), at an average of 7 gp per Casting you would need to cast the Curse 929 times to afford a Wand. At 15th level you could cast the Spell 8 times a day with Drain Bonded Item. So, that's 116 days, with you devoting all your Rank 7 and Rank 8 spellslots, plus your use of Drain Bonded Item, every day.

Is it doable? Yes. Seems like a really boring way to live your life though.

The benefit is that you can be casting the Composition Cantrip while doing any Exploration Activity. So you don't have to be using Repeat a Spell... You can do this while using Defend, or Search, or even Avoid Notice (although I wouldn't blame any GM for disallowing that one.)

Errenor wrote:

Easl wrote:

My money's on them getting it from ... PFS feedback...

As a reminder, PFS reports include nothing about characters, not even their level. Well, yes, there's a name.

Really?

Every time I sign up to play PFS I have to give:
Character Name
Character Class
Character Level
Character's Faction
Character's PFS #

Now I don't know if anything except the PFS# is reported.
I've only ever played, so it may be that the GM only needs to report the #

I GM PFS2e. When you report, it's Character Name, Faction, PFS Player # and Character #.

Class is never mentioned in the Reporting. Sign-up sheets ask for it because it helps the GMs prep for the games.

I have a Level 15 Wizard in a friend's homebrew campaign. Started him at Level 12... we brought the campaign over from D&D 3.5 at that level (the GM wanted to try Pathfinder, and, well, keeping the GM happy is a priority when he's been running for 10+ years.)

I've been giving a lot of thought to playing a Wizard in PFS. Kinda based on my other Wizard, but making some different choices. For one thing, I went Rogue Dedication with the other guy. I think I'd like to go straight Wizard this time.

One thing I've noticed: For the early levels, I think Wizards have the edge on Cantrips. For the first few levels Cantrips are, IMHO, pretty important.

Any Wizard can, of course, swap out their Prepared Cantrips every day. They share that capability with the Witch. The Sorcerer can't do that, at least not until later levels (when they're able to rely more on Spell Slots anyways.)

I mean, I like Eat Fire... Fire damage is common, it's a Cantrip that uses a Reaction (and a 1st level Wizard doesn't have a lot of uses for Reactions, usually), it has a fun secondary effect... what's not to like? Still though, if I know I'm going to be facing the zombie master, I'd rather slot something else.

By a strict reading, Spell Substitution doesn't work with Cantrips, as it specifies spell slots... but really, I think it's not a big stretch for the Thesis that enables swapping prepared spells to be able to swap a prepared Cantrip.

Spell Blending? While yes, it doesn't work to get high level slots for a while, you can still trade any slot to prepare two additional Cantrips that day. I can see value in the early levels for doing that.

Staff Nexus: While I agree with everyone who thinks that the whole "spend a 1st Rank slot to charge a single 1st Rank spell from the Staff" is pointless... it still will give an additional Cantrip (and you don't have to charge the Staff for that.)

The other two Theses don't really help in that way. I'm not a big Familiar fan, so I've never really examined what Improved Familiar Attunement really gives you.

I think though, that I'm going to stick with Experimental Spellshaping. I like starting with Reach Spell (going to go Human and grab Spellbook Prodigy as well.) My 15th level guy has gotten a lot of use out being able to swap between Spellshaping Feats. So that'll be fun at 4th.

So I'm looking at going Ars Magica, and I think it will work out quite well. Command is a fun School spell. Never noticed before that it shuts down Reactions until the Command is obeyed. Kinda cool.

One thing I do like about the new Schools over the old: the old Schools didn't give you free Spells in your Spellbook. The new ones do. I can appreciate that.

Third action, I have some options. Move, as always. Cast Shield if I prep it. (I do like Shield.) If I'm stuck close to the action, Protective Wards is there. Want to keep my distance? Reach Spell.

Anyways, I'm rambling.

Ok, this sounds decent. A Munitions Crafter without access to normal firearm supplies can make 16 Black Powder rounds a day from 1st level. That's plenty for a single day... heck, 12 would probably be more than enough. Then options increase with level, allowing the use of Alchemical Ammunition in more circumstances.

I'm ok with that. The Alchemical Ammos are neat; somebody should be using them. Not like Alchemists are going to.

(IMHO, any Alchemist going Ranged should simply focus on Bombs.)

I'm unsure of Munitions Machinist. Adding in Quick Alchemy seems sure to disrupt a Gunslingers action economy.

My big question is: Does Munitions Crafter have a larger batch size for Level 0 Black Powder rounds?

If not, making 4 pieces of ammo at first, ramping up to 14 at twentieth... it's in an odd place.

I started playing PFS games online during the Pandemic. I've really enjoyed the experience, for a number of reasons.

1) It's hard to get into a long running campaign. I'm lucky... I've been in two so far.

2) I got into my second long running group (we played through Extinction Curse and Outlaws of Alkenstar over a couple of years) because I met the GM through online PFS play.

3) Fitting in a 4-5 hour gaming session every now and then has been relatively painless.

4) I usually enjoy the plotlines.

5) I've "met" some genuinely imaginative, out of the box players. PFS tends to encourage trying out different concepts, ones that might not hold up over a long campaign but are really, really fun.

6) I enjoy GM'ing, and PFS Scenarios fit my GM'ing style quite well. I like bringing life to NPCs, but I suck at coming up with plots. Making homebrew campaigns is not for me.

I owe a lot to online PFS. I credit it with contributing significantly to my continued sanity during the height of the Covid pandemic.

Edited to add: While I realize it can contribute to "roll play", I like that PFS puts a lot of emphasis on Skill Checks and Recall Knowledge Checks. You don't want to neglect either Combat or Out of Combat abilities, no matter what you're playing, because both will definitely come up.

Though I do believe Shove technically does let you choose a direction, As long as the creature ends up further away.

That's always been my interpretation. Away on a diagonal is still away (as one example.)

No, the High DC at level 4 is 21 (20 at level 3). And High DC is what you generally face, spellcasters often even get closer to Extreme DC.

As pointed above, Caster Enemies usually use at least the High DC for their abilities. For their more signature abilities that often come with the debilitating effects, they sometimes even use the Extreme DC.

So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract.

This is absolutely not the case.

All Easytools Monsters isn't quite as comprehensive as it once was, but it's still a great starting point for most general trends. The Modal (or most common) Spell DC per Creature Level matches the High DC from GM Core. So, add +2 to all my numbers from my previous post.

Rolls of 11+ or 14+ are not the same as needing a Nat 20 90% of the time. Should Extreme DCs come into play, 15-16+, or 19-20. Still not Nat 20 90% of the time, especially as the Extreme DCs aren't supposed to be common until L15+... and even then, they're not especially common if All Easytools can be believed.

Now, is the capability provided by the Invigorating Elixir feat superior? Absolutely, as it should be. Investing three (possibly four, if you get both versions of Improved Invigorating Elixir) Class Feats should be considerably more potent than baseline Alchemical Items.

Still, having capability of removing conditions, even on a roll of 14+, basically for free... this is not a bad thing, in my opinion. Not something to be using on a regular basis, but good to have in the toolkit in case of emergency.

Back in the Core Rulebook era, my Bomber got hit with a Clumsy 2 condition, with a duration of 1 minute. Basically, a really annoying full fight Debuff. So I took a chance, spent a Batch on a Sinew-Shock Serum... and it worked. Made all the difference in that fight, and played really well into my Class Fantasy for Alchemist... the right tool, at the right time, always.

On a different topic...

Yeah, the healing from a Versatile Vial is completely underwhelming, even if it can be Ranged with no chance of missing. Only real use case, in Encounter Mode, is if you need to stabilize someone and you're out of better options.

Even out of Encounter Mode, adding 1 or 2 d6 to your Treat Wounds routine is pretty meh.

The only point where it gets interesting, is when Chirurgeons get their Advanced Vial ability at 11th.

Being able to heal to half at a rate of 40d6 hp (avg 140) per minute, for free, has a use case. I've been in situations where time between encounters is at a premium. Going to half for no resources that quickly... there've been times I would've liked that. At 12th level, with Greater VVs, it goes up to 60d6 per minute, or averaging 210.

Go to half with VVs, then throw in a Soothing Tonic to add in 50 hp over half in a just another minute... that's a lot of healing in a very short period of time.

Definitely not your usual set of circumstances, but I still find it interesting that the capacity is there.

So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract.

It's not quite that bad.

Bottled Catharsis and its counterpart, Surging Serum, got their mechanics smoothed out a bit over their APG versions, Focus Cathartic and Sinew-Shock Serum with the addition of an 8th level version.

2nd Level: Counteract Level 1, Check Modifier +6, can Counteract anything with a CL of 1 or 2 on a success. Typical DC of a CL1 effect is 15, meaning a 9 or better works. CL2 is 18, so a 12 would be needed.

4th Level: CL 2, CM +8. Counteracts CL2 or 3 on a success. CL2 still 18, so 10+. CL3 DC 20, so again 12+.

8th level: CL 4, CM +14. CL4 or 5 on a success. CL 4, DC 23, so 9+. CL 5, DC 26, 12+.

12th level: CL 6, CM +19. CL 6 or 7 on a success. CL 6 DC is 28, so 9+; CL 7 DC 31, so 12+.

Now, by this pattern, there really ought to be a 16th level version. There isn't. So, until L18, if you want to Counteract a L8 Condition, you need a Crit Success with this serum... which means a Nat 20.

18th level: CL 9, CM +28. CL 9 or 10 on a success. CL 9 is DC 36, so an 8+ will work. DC for CL10 is 39, so 11+.

So really, if you can use the at-level stuff, this isn't too bad. There are awkward levels, of course, because CLs increase on odd levels, and this Serum increases on even ones. So 7th and 11th levels, if you need to Counteract a CL 4 or CL 6, you'll need Nat 20s. It's worst for levels 15-17... yes, in theory, Greater Bottled Catharsis can Counteract CLs 8 or 9, but again, Nat 20s.

Invigorating Elixir will generally be better, because the Class DC - 10 formula will almost always be better, and (Class Level / 2, Round Up) for Counteract Level increases on the odd levels.

Contagion Metabolizer, the general anti-Disease/anti-Poison Elixir, is a bit more awkward. It only has three Tiers, not five... but its Counteract Level is (Item Level/2 round up), not (Item Level/2).

So the L5 version has CL3, meaning it works on a success for CLs 3 & 4... which generally will handle up to Level 9 when CL 5 shows up. The +11 check means a success on 9 (CL3) or 12 (CL4) before starting to need Nat 20s for CL5 at Levels 9 & 10.

Level 11, things start to work as expected again with Moderate. CL 6 and 7 on a Success, +19 on the roll is as strong as the L12 Bottled Catharsis... so rolls of 9 or 12 again. Gets awkward at 15th, just like Bottled Catharsis, but stays so for an additional level, because Greater Contagion Metabolizer is L19.

The advantage there being, Contagion Metabolizer finishes with a CL of 10, which makes CL 9 Counteracted on a Failed roll. The Modifier (+30) is also stronger.

I've currently only played my 10th Level Mutagenist under the PC2 rules. I'm looking forward to playing my 11th level Bomber later this month (if I can grab a spot when 6-09, The Power of Legends drops.)

So, Norm Waglan, my Mutagenist, has Int +5 but doesn't have Efficient Alchemy. So, 9 Advanced Alchemy Items a day. He also has an Alchemical Familiar, and usually will take Extra Alchemy & Extra Vial.

4 doses of Bestial Mutagen.
1 Darkvision Elixir
2 Antidotes
1 Antiplague
1 Soothing Tonic in case he's out of Versatile Vials.
1 Mistform Elixir

He has 7 regenerating Versatile Vials, with an additional once-per-day one from Jeeves (his familiar.)

I've only played him twice. However, the following regimen has worked quite well:
Every ten minutes: Cheetah's Elixir, Bravo's Brew, Eagle-Eye Elixir.

I'm not a huge fan of the "drink your regen limit every ten minutes" strategy, but I've gotta admit, it's effective.

Roll Initiative: Hit the Collar, take a point of Piercing, gain 10 temp HP from the Bestial.
First round of the fight: Combine Elixirs Soothing & Numbing Tonics, Stride or Raise Shield (usually Raise Shield).
Rest of the fight: Two Versatile Vials in reserve.

Last game, was able to pre Buff, which I find pretty rare usually. So, used the one-a-day to add in Chromatic Jellyfish Oil and burnt the final two Versatile Vials on Rainbow Vinegar and Iron Wine. Still spent the first round on Soothing & Numbing.

Advanced Alchemy: During your daily preparations, you spend some time to create alchemical items that can be used over the course of the day. You don't need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, you can use an alchemist's toolkit instead of an alchemist's lab, and you ignore both the number of days typically required to create the items and any alchemical raw materials requirements. You can Craft a number of alchemical items up to 4 + your Intelligence modifier. Each item must be in your formula book, have an item level equal to or lower than your level, and have the consumable trait. These items have the infused trait and remain potent for 24 hours or until your next daily preparations, whichever comes first.

So a Wizard with a Spellbook can prepare their Spells. An Alchemist without either a Toolkit or a Lab cannot do any Alchemy, period, even with a Formula Book.

Still, I don't think it's much of a hassle, barring a scenario like the postulated (PCs are imprisoned without gear.) Worst case, if the Alchemist can get ahold of the right tools, they can make a Toolkit in two days with a roll of 7+.

Errata gets incorporated when a book gets reprinted. At that time the PDF will be updated for no additional cost for those who own an earlier edition in that format.

I've been meaning to chime in on this for a while.

I think there's a real place for this Archetype.

I think it scratches a different itch than Warpriest. I played a Core Rulebook Warpriest for 20 levels through Extinction Curse. I did so partly because of the poor online reputation of the Doctrine, and I never regretted it. Loved the character & loved the Doctrine.

This would be different. There's a real psychological benefit, IMHO, to getting your Expert Proficiency with Strikes at the same time as everyone else. I imagine it will be most pronounced in 1-10 campaigns. I know the Warpriest player in my Abomination Vaults campaign has been eagerly waiting to catch up with the others at L7.

Not as strong a Spellcaster, to be sure, but I think that's ok. You still have four strong slots on top of your Battle Auras, and then there's the Creed Magic slots. To be honest, when I was playing Ellisar, my Warpriest, a lot of times I wasn't casting all that many spells in an Encounter.

Also, I like the mechanic. Put up a Bless (something Ellisar did a lot), and then start hitting things.. and starting at 4th the Emanation will increase 10'.

I like Empowered Onslaught as well. The idea that a Crit can start a slippery slope is pretty cool. Because with Bless, a Crit leads to an equal Status Bonus to Strike as Rank Six Heroism... For everybody in the party, including yourself. Which makes a second Critical just that much more likely... And that's Rank 9.

About the only thing I really don't like is that Aura Expertise doesn't play well with Empowered Onslaught if you only have one Aura up.

If this had been around when I played Extinction Curse, I might've chosen it. No regrets at all, but still, maybe.

"Sacrificing thralls... is there anything it can't do?" - To paraphrase a certain lich.

You're a bit off with Alchemist accuracy. The big thing is, Alchemists have Mutagens, and Mutagens help.

I have a Bomber in PFS, currently 11th level. With the Remaster rules, his accuracy compared to a Rogue looks like this:

-2: 13 & 14
-1: 2, 5, 6, 10
Even: 1, 3, 4, 11, 12, 16, 20
+1: 7, 8, 9, 15, 17, 18, 19

I tend to discount the -1 levels. I've played through them three times so far, pre-Remaster. It really doesn't make much of an impact.

So that leaves 13 & 14 as the only truly painful levels. Which sucks, but at least it's only two levels.

This reminds me of Raise a Tome. the L2 Magus feat. My Sparkling Targe Magus has that one; it's fun!

I take full credit. I upped my pledge by $31 (CDN) this morning.

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

(But seriously, it's weird to think that if I didn't do that, on a whim, it would've finished just short.)

They broke $610,000 by eighteen dollars (Canadian)!!! Which means the campaign met the Multiclass Archetyping Stretch Goal!!!

Talk about every dollar pledged counting! Heck, I upped my own pledge this morning on a whim by $31! (Went from Early Bird Digital with a dice set to Digital Deluxe with three dice sets.)

While it is rather silly, by RAW you cannot just throw a Bomb at the ground. The definition of Strike specifies a Creature as the Target, and a Strike is how you Activate a Bomb.

It also occurs to me that things like the somewhat unique design space of Skunk Bombs may be why Paizo decided to end area Splash on a miss.

Hasn't Paizo been fairly clear that Starfinder 2e is only balanced internally? That while yes, the underlying rules are compatible, bringing content from one game to the other is not for the faint of heart?

I've written "An Alchemist's Guide to Alchemical Items", and I've included a section that deals with Alchemical Foods. Please download it... the Google Drive PDF viewer is definitely not the best.

I haven't updated it to Player Core 2 yet, and definitely not the Tian Xia Character Guide (which I don't own yet.) But it's reasonably complete. Hopefully you can find it useful. Feedback is always welcome.

And no matter how little investment the Alch has in bomb-throwing as a specialization, the comparison is clear.

Trip, you are putting way too much value on action compression here.

Yes, you are correct: with Quick Bomber, any Alchemist doing a Double Brew could make a Quick Vial Strike for free.

The question for Strength builds is: Why bother?

Let's take my 10th level Mutagenist as an example. He is now Dex +2. So, you're suggesting that it's worth it to trade my Alchemical Familiar (his original Level 1 Feat) for Quick Bomber.

As Norm is -3 behind where my Bomber was at 10th, the most likely outcome of this free Strike is a simple miss, at 45% (at-level Opponent, High AC, 0 MAP). Overall miss chance, counting critical miss, is 60%. So I've spent my 1st level Feat for the opportunity to do 2 points of Acid Splash, with a chance to do absolutely nothing with a roll of 1-3.

So no, Quick Bomber is not a feat tax. It's great if you're a Bomber... it may even be worth it if you're going Ranged but not using Bombs as your primary attack. For other builds, there are much better things to spend your 1st level Class Feat on.

I play two Alchemists in PFS. The first is a Bomber, and yeah, I have Quick Bomber (although I only took it at L5 through a Halfling Ancestry Feat.)

The second is a Mutagenist, who only just got Dex +2 at 10th level. He's thrown a Bomb maybe once in his entire career.

So, I'm deeply glad it's a Feat, not a Class Feature. I don't need anything in there that says "You should always be throwing Bombs!" No, with the Mutagenist, I prefer ripping things to shreds.

The archetype is stronger in some ways, weaker in others. The Core Rulebook archetype could, by 20th, make 40 Items each day, while the Player Core 2 version tops out considerably lower, and somewhere between four-seven of them have to be made with Quick Alchemy.

On the other hand, the Item Level progression in Core Rulebook was horrible, and topped out at 15, while the Items created with Player Core 2 can be your Level or lower.

The new archetype is strongest for someone who can keep a hand free (for Quick Alchemy) and wants to use an Elixir of some kind (Mutagen or other) every combat. There is a lot of potential there.

I have a flurry Ranger in PFS that uses a Clan Dagger with Doubling Rings. The Dagger has the Runes, and his main weapon is either a Short Sword or a Light Hammer. It's been a lot of fun.

I like the Clan Dagger for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it has Parry, and my guy has Twin Parry building towards Twin Riposte. Secondly, it has Bludgeoning. Thirdly, it's just thematic as anything.

Does that familiar versatile vial replenish along with the others?

Extra Vial: Your familiar accretes alchemical liquids in its body. Once per day, you can Interact when your familiar is adjacent to you to gain a versatile vial. You must have the versatile vials ability to select this ability.

Given the specific wording, I would say the answer is no.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but literally the only thing your research field is doing for you in your level 10 example is granting some temp HP which wouldn't stack with your numbing elixir.

Don't underestimate the strategic value of the the Mutagen Temp HP. Its a great buffer until you get the opportunity to use something like a Numbing Tonic.

Numbing is fantastic, but it can be rather impractical. It's a one minute duration Buff, which means that you basically cannot use it in advance unless you are positive that hostilities will ensue immediately after.

So, Levels One to Four, you carry your Mutagen in your hand and chug it. Now, you might have a Numbing in your other hand to activate in the same round. You might not. The 3 or 4 temp HP from the Mutagen will beat the 2 HP from a minor Numbing regardless.

Fifth level it becomes even more strategic. You activate a Collar on Initiative and gain the temp HP (usually 6.) If you take a hit between Initiative and your first Action, it's definitely served a good purpose.

I'll admit the Field Vial benefits leave something to be desired, at least until 17th. Although I keep having this picture in my head of having a VV in hand in order to pull off something ridiculous while under the effect of Choker-Arm Mutagen. I also keep thinking that a two-hand-free Build could get some mileage out of keeping a VV in hand to gain the Advanced Vials ability in an emergency.

Man, now that I think about it, it's a shame you can't use Combine Elixirs to combine a Quick Vial with an Elixir. I can definitely think of some situations that would come in handy.

So can versatile vials be used for their alternate function without quick alchemy first? If I'm playing a toxicologist, does that mean I can use a VV directly from my stash to poison an attack and then make a strike?

If so, that changes my mind quite of bit on them from what I saw on the YT vids that seemed to imply that you had to QA the item and them apply it and then strike

Absolutely. You can hold a VV in your hand and just use it for your Research Field ability for one action should you wish.