Unlimited credits during character creation?


General Discussion

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Starfinder core rulebook, page 168:
"Weapons that use standard ammunition (arrows, charges, darts, mini-rockets, petrol, rounds, scattergun shells, etc.) are sold preloaded"

Would this not mean that a character could purchase a 100-credit scattergun to gain a 330-credit high-capacity battery?

Starfinder core rulebook, page 218:
"Items specified with a usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices)."

Is the battery a maximum capacity possible for the item, or a regular battery?

If the former is the case, then would that not mean that a character could purchase a 7-credit personal comm unit, which comes with a 390-credit super-capacity battery that can be sold for 39 credits? Is this not an infinite loop?

If the latter is the case, then you could purchase 1-credit flashlights/lanterns that come with 60-credit batteries, and then sell off the batteries for 6 credits each. This is an uncontestable, infinite loop.

There is now a method of gaining unlimited credits right from character creation.

Now, there is one thing I see stopping this infinite loop: flashlights/lanterns have a capacity of 10.

Does that mean that they come with a regular, 20-charge battery with some sort of "only 10 charges can be stored in this while in the flashlight/lantern" limitation?

Does that mean they come with a "special edition" 10-charge battery that cannot be sold due to no price being listed for them? If so, then does that mean that the other technological items come with batteries of the maximum capacity, such as a 390-credit, 80-charge battery for a 7-credit personal comm unit? Or, to put it in another way, if a 10-capacity flashlight comes with a 10-charge battery, does an 80-capacity personal comm unit come with an 80-charge battery?


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Colette Brunel wrote:
Now, there is one thing I see stopping this infinite loop:

Your GM?


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Can the batteries be removen without destroying the item? The weapons have magazines, but does the comm unit, flashligh and the rest of the items say if it's bateries can be removed?

But thanks for pointing it so the people in charge of Starfinder Society can put a clausule to avoid this (and some discussions in my lodge)


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Oykiv wrote:

Can the batteries be removen without destroying the item? The weapons have magazines, but does the comm unit, flashligh and the rest of the items say if it's bateries can be removed?

But thanks for pointing it so the people in charge of Starfinder Society can put a clausule to avoid this (and some discussions in my lodge)

The batteries in question are interchangeable, as per page 218:

"Items specified with a usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices)."


Would be sold at second hand prices i.e. 10%. So you would get 33 credits not 330.

Probably would also invalidate your manufacturers warrantee.


If you're willing to play in a group that allows this sort of thing, why even play with money to begin with? Just have infinite credits.


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Fardragon wrote:

Would be sold at second hand prices i.e. 10%. So you would get 33 credits not 330.

Probably would also invalidate your manufacturers warrantee.

That is not where the potential infinite loop comes from.

Personal comm units and flashlights/lanterns are where the potential infinite loop come from, depending on the type of batteries they come with.


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Borigrad wrote:
If you're willing to play in a group that allows this sort of thing, why even play with money to begin with? Just have infinite credits.

I don't think that's the point. It's obviously not something that's going to see practical use, at least not with any frequency. But it does point out a bizarre flaw with the rules that ought to be fixed.

Aside from just needing to have conversations about it with some players (which sucks), it also makes no sense in-world, since it enables characters to buy batteries for a fraction of their price. If maintaining a sci-fi setting where tracking individual fractions of a charged battery and paying for them is critical to your enjoyment (as Starfinder is built), that needs to go- probably by lowering prices and having items come uncharged, or increasing the cost of items by the price of their associated battery.

Silver Crusade

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In pathfinder society all free equipment is 0 cost to be sold.

Im think will be same, prob all free full battery Will be 0 cost to be sold (if isnt its this atm)


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It actually happens in RL. Ink cartridges can cost more than some printers (as the printer is sold as a loss leader). The printer ships with ink cartrages included...

The reason this kind of thing can happen is there are very high mark-ups over the manufacturing cost.

In a pseudo-medieval economy mark-ups are lower because supply chains are shorter.


Since the Starfinders often supply members with casual amenities and travel costs there is a good chance that in SFS your batteries will be filled at the start of each adventure. Technomancer has a 0th level spell that can transfer charges from 2 batteries of the same size so if an enemy has a 40 capacity battery it could be drained as well.

So at home the GM can just houserule something and for SFS it either won't be an issue at all or will be a slightly cheaper way to power a couple of weapons that you won't be able to buy before the loophole is closed anyway.


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The simple rule is that items come preloaded with the standard battery or magazine. IF you want a big one, you have to buy it yourself.


gigyas6 wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
Now, there is one thing I see stopping this infinite loop:
Your GM?

Abadaran cooperate hitman killing you for screwing up the market.

He's lawful neutral, not lawful good.


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Philo Pharynx wrote:
The simple rule is that items come preloaded with the standard battery or magazine. IF you want a big one, you have to buy it yourself.

If this is the case, then it creates an infinite loop due to flashlights and lanterns being battery-powered, yet costing only 1 credit.

A flashlight or a lantern has merely capacity 10; what sort of battery does it come with?


Honestly the 10% sell back pretty much takes care of the issue. Spending 100 creds to make 44 for selling back gun and battery is not gaining money.


kaid wrote:
Honestly the 10% sell back pretty much takes care of the issue. Spending 100 creds to make 44 for selling back gun and battery is not gaining money.

It's the 1 credit items with charged batteries that are the problem.

Well, the whole economy is the problem but specifically 1 credit charged items cause the infinite loop with the RAW.


My guess is all items come with the smallest possible battery and that there is supposed to be a 10 charge battery for flashlights, but they didn't include it on the ammunition table because no weapons take it. Just an oversight.

But as per raw, it seems the flashlight trick works. The question then becomes which merchant is giving you free money?


If a flashlight or a lantern comes with a 10-charge battery (its maximum capacity), then does a personal comm unit come with an 80-charge battery (its maximum capacity)?


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To me, the problem isn't the infinite loop, but the fact it makes charging a waste of money.

A new battery is 330 credits, and can be recharged for half, so 165 credits.

You can buy a pulse caster rifle, which comes with a full battery, for 100 credits.

Why would anyone recharge that battery? Buy a new gun, pop the battery and throw the gun in storage. Use it for trade with local thugs. Donate it to the local orphans. Heck, throw the gun away and you are still ahead financially.


nowa wrote:
kaid wrote:
Honestly the 10% sell back pretty much takes care of the issue. Spending 100 creds to make 44 for selling back gun and battery is not gaining money.

It's the 1 credit items with charged batteries that are the problem.

Well, the whole economy is the problem but specifically 1 credit charged items cause the infinite loop with the RAW.

Yes I did not see those and yes that is unusual that such a cheap item has an expensive battery. Seems odd something like a flash light is using batteries capable of powering hand weapons though hehe.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

But what sort of battery does a flashlight have by default? The equipment list does not have any batteries that hold no more than 10 charges.


David knott 242 wrote:

But what sort of battery does a flashlight have by default? The equipment list does not have any batteries that hold no more than 10 charges.

Hopefully a battery that cost 1 credit


The rabbit hole of batteries runs quite deep; apparently, while all other weapons and technological items are powered by interchangeable batteries, computers are not. They work on their own poorly-explained battery life mechanic, which has to be upgraded with the "self-charging" upgrade.

Did the person writing the computer rules never get in touch with the person writing the battery rules?


Batteries are outsourced.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Fardragon wrote:
In a pseudo-medieval economy mark-ups are lower because supply chains are shorter.

So the way it goes from medieval to today, in a future economy, marketing guys will go totally crazy and will just play with numbers unrelated to costs of production.

It actually makes sense if I see what's happening today.

Programmed obsolescence.

Today a device that does TV+Web+camera+phone+text+... costs less than a phone or a TV.

So I don't see your point: in the future, parts will cost more than full objects. They will be just bought by rich guys enjoying memorabilia.

Just forget batteries even exist in the game, that will just make it easier to run :-)

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Note that capacity means different things for tech items than for weapons.

For weapons, capacity is the biggest battery it can slot. Batteries are roughly analogous to clips.

But for tech items (like flashlights), capacity is the amount of energy the item itself can hold.

"Capacity: This lists the maximum capacity for an item that requires charges to function. An item that holds electrical charges can be replenished with a battery (see page 190)."

So when you buy a personal comm, it doesn't actually come with a battery. (I mean, it likely has an internal battery of some kind, but it doesn't have a "battery" in the sense of the game items found on page 179). Think like an iPhone.


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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Note that capacity means different things for tech items than for weapons.

For weapons, capacity is the biggest battery it can slot. Batteries are roughly analogous to clips.

But for tech items (like flashlights), capacity is the amount of energy the item itself can hold.

"Capacity: This lists the maximum capacity for an item that requires charges to function. An item that holds electrical charges can be replenished with a battery (see page 190)."

So when you buy a personal comm, it doesn't actually come with a battery. (I mean, it likely has an internal battery of some kind, but it doesn't have a "battery" in the sense of the game items found on page 179). Think like an iPhone.

This is inconsistent with the following passage:

Starfinder core rulebook, page 218:
"Items specified with a usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices)."

The battery of a personal comm unit can, in fact, be replaced by the same batteries used as ammunition.


Colette Brunel wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Note that capacity means different things for tech items than for weapons.

For weapons, capacity is the biggest battery it can slot. Batteries are roughly analogous to clips.

But for tech items (like flashlights), capacity is the amount of energy the item itself can hold.

"Capacity: This lists the maximum capacity for an item that requires charges to function. An item that holds electrical charges can be replenished with a battery (see page 190)."

So when you buy a personal comm, it doesn't actually come with a battery. (I mean, it likely has an internal battery of some kind, but it doesn't have a "battery" in the sense of the game items found on page 179). Think like an iPhone.

This is inconsistent with the following passage:

Starfinder core rulebook, page 218:
"Items specified with a usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices)."

The battery of a personal comm unit can, in fact, be replaced by the same batteries used as ammunition.

That might have a been a left over since it contradicts the Capacity entry.

Reading the Capacity entry it makes more sense to go with that interpretation, also adding to this there's two pieces of equipment that have a capacity that does not match any of the listed batteries' capacities so there's effectively no way to replace those (The Detonator has a Capacity of 5 and the Signal Jammer has a Capacity of 12).


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Colette Brunel wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Note that capacity means different things for tech items than for weapons.

For weapons, capacity is the biggest battery it can slot. Batteries are roughly analogous to clips.

But for tech items (like flashlights), capacity is the amount of energy the item itself can hold.

"Capacity: This lists the maximum capacity for an item that requires charges to function. An item that holds electrical charges can be replenished with a battery (see page 190)."

So when you buy a personal comm, it doesn't actually come with a battery. (I mean, it likely has an internal battery of some kind, but it doesn't have a "battery" in the sense of the game items found on page 179). Think like an iPhone.

This is inconsistent with the following passage:

Starfinder core rulebook, page 218:
"Items specified with a usage use a battery that comes fully charged when purchased. Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices)."

The battery of a personal comm unit can, in fact, be replaced by the same batteries used as ammunition.

Personal comm unit would not, in fact, be replaced by the same batteries as ammunition.

First of all, as stated before, some items have battery/charge capacities that don't line up with the list on the Ammunition page. Secondly, that doesn't even make a lick of sense, since even in our day and age you can't shove a car battery into an iPhone/smartphone. Do they both hold charge? Yes. Is it still electricity? Yes. Can they both be charged? Yes. Are they the same? Hell no.

Use some common sense. This type of RAW loophole-finding is ridiculous.

Moreover, as listed in the quote above, it comes fully charged but that does NOT implicitly state that it can be removed. It states "Such batteries can be recharged as normal using generators or recharging stations (see Professional Services on page 234), or they can be replaced (see Table 7-9: Ammunition for battery prices)."

That very bold-ed statement is undoing. The "or" statement would indicate that you would replace a battery of similar caliber. And it specifically is under the "Ammunition" rules-set. I've never once referred to my mag light as using "ammunition" when I'm changing out those batteries.

Some common sense needs to prevail, dude. If you're GM is letting you run rampant re-selling mag flashlights and buying rifles to strip them of batteries, then there's a bigger problem at play.

Moreover, manufacturing even in today's age matches up with most of the rules listed. It's far cheaper to buy a pre-made computer than individual parts. I can believe some shadier people doing something like this in today's, and Starfinder's, market - but it's not as easy as you might think. You also need to realize not everyone, everywhere, is simply going to buy second-hand flashlights, weapons, etc. off of you, nor will they have the supply to make that type of rapid buy/sell possible. Inventory is still a thing, and no shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

Again, use some common sense.


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The rules (some of which describe how the setting works) say what they say. Claiming it's "common sense" that you're right doesn't really help. Neither does a tortured interpretation of what "or" means.

Hell, if we're going by "common sense", the future batteries in Pathfinder worked this way already- they were totally interchangeable between a laser rifle and a flashlight- so it's a hard sell that with mostly the same text and developers involved it's suddenly different now.

Silver Crusade

Technically only for PFS (though likely for SFS as well, I guess), but:
Relevant FAQ

But yeah this seems a little immersion breaking.


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Drali wrote:
gigyas6 wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:
Now, there is one thing I see stopping this infinite loop:
Your GM?

Abadaran cooperate hitman killing you for screwing up the market.

He's lawful neutral, not lawful good.

in the grimdark future of starfinder, the invisible hand has become the shadowy fist


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th3razzer wrote:
This type of RAW loophole-finding is ridiculous.

I would argue that these "RAW loopholes" are being found due to poorly written rules, and a very strange and arbitrary energy economy. And that's not even getting into the economics-breaking of having a god-particle UPB...

Quote:
Moreover, manufacturing even in today's age matches up with most of the rules listed. It's far cheaper to buy a pre-made computer than individual parts.

People build their own computers precisely BECAUSE it's cheaper to get the parts and build it themselves.

While I can see your earlier point regarding "different batteries", I feel that Paizo specifically added their 10% sell rule to try to fix the batteries-costing-more-than-the-finished-product rule.

Its like they're adding arbitrary rule on top of arbitrary rule to try to hide how broken the economy is in the game.


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nowa wrote:

Quote:
Moreover, manufacturing even in today's age matches up with most of the rules listed. It's far cheaper to buy a pre-made computer than individual parts.

People build their own computers precisely BECAUSE it's cheaper to get the parts and build it themselves.

Exactly sure if your just wanting a word processing facebook farmville machine that can do card games yeah it will be cheaper. But if you want power you are so much better off buying and building than you are buying.


The rule could be read as
batteries can be recharged (in some devices), or replaced (in other devices)
rather than
batteries can be recharged or replaced (in all devices)


Quote:
Inventory is still a thing, and no shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

What? Uh... no. All shops do this. I've never wandered into a shop with empty shelves, barring going out of business sales or hurricane days.

I've come across hobby stores that keep a minimal amount of stock for tabletop miniatures games, but that pretty much immediately drives a lot of potential customers to the internet.

Having more stock than regular customers will buy is absolutely normal, otherwise you quickly end up with walk-in customers and nothing to sell them.


Voss wrote:
Quote:
Inventory is still a thing, and no shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

What? Uh... no. All shops do this. I've never wandered into a shop with empty shelves, barring going out of business sales or hurricane days.

I've come across hobby stores that keep a minimal amount of stock for tabletop miniatures games, but that pretty much immediately drives a lot of potential customers to the internet.

Having more stock than regular customers will buy is absolutely normal, otherwise you quickly end up with walk-in customers and nothing to sell them.

...oh my word, really? You don't say? Wouldn't you argue, then, that having stock - on hand - to meet the supply/demand of that particular item as stocking in relation to the regular influx of customers?

You twisted my words - bravo? Would you like a slow-clap? Perhaps an evil swivel-chair turn, evil cat on my lap, gasping that you've "sussed out my evil ploy"?

Extra inventory is essential to meeting demand, but you wouldn't argue that, say, if I keep 400,000 flashlights on hand (to use the earlier product example) when I sell only close to 100 or so monthly, that I was keeping "extra just in case"? Just so that I don't "have empty shelves"? It's not a 1:1 deal here, guy, it's a projection.

Of course the shop/store is going to have (at least, most shops should have) at least double, if not normally triple, the stock on-hand to meet any potential spike/fall in demand.

That was my whole point. The shop is not going to have an endless supply of item B so that you can rip item A out of it and then sell it right back to them, to repeat the process infinitely until the player feels they have just enough credits.

So yes, let's go back to my statement: No shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

Perhaps look up the word influx, then attach the word "regular", apply some common sense, then rinse and repeat until the definition of the sentence I constructed hits home.


th3razzer wrote:
Voss wrote:
Quote:
Inventory is still a thing, and no shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

What? Uh... no. All shops do this. I've never wandered into a shop with empty shelves, barring going out of business sales or hurricane days.

I've come across hobby stores that keep a minimal amount of stock for tabletop miniatures games, but that pretty much immediately drives a lot of potential customers to the internet.

Having more stock than regular customers will buy is absolutely normal, otherwise you quickly end up with walk-in customers and nothing to sell them.

...oh my word, really? You don't say? Wouldn't you argue, then, that having stock - on hand - to meet the supply/demand of that particular item as stocking in relation to the regular influx of customers?

You twisted my words - bravo? Would you like a slow-clap? Perhaps an evil swivel-chair turn, evil cat on my lap, gasping that you've "sussed out my evil ploy"?

Extra inventory is essential to meeting demand, but you wouldn't argue that, say, if I keep 400,000 flashlights on hand (to use the earlier product example) when I sell only close to 100 or so monthly, that I was keeping "extra just in case"? Just so that I don't "have empty shelves"? It's not a 1:1 deal here, guy, it's a projection.

Of course the shop/store is going to have (at least, most shops should have) at least double, if not normally triple, the stock on-hand to meet any potential spike/fall in demand.

That was my whole point. The shop is not going to have an endless supply of item B so that you can rip item A out of it and then sell it right back to them, to repeat the process infinitely until the player feels they have just enough credits.

So yes, let's go back to my statement: No shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

Perhaps look up the word influx, then attach the word "regular", apply some common sense, then rinse and repeat until the definition of the sentence I constructed...

Just to add to this: I'm a business major and have had to do several problems on supply and demand. It's extremely annoying and no store ever gets it right especially when you factor in costs to hold inventory. Those 400k flashlights? Might cost 20k+ creds per month in inventory, so you need to sell them in what? 20 months? Maybe less? And that's not counting other items being held (Note all figures made up but semi-realistic). Usually, what actually happens is that the store will hold what they can sell in 2-3 weeks worth of time and order more when they run low or every 1-2 weeks if they go below a certain percentage... and gee, stores still do mess up from time to time and end up with no stock.

Yeah, business might be evil, but it's stuff like this that actually can be important because inventory can be more costly than employees or entertainment expenses or taxes. If I GM for Starfinder, I wouldn't let players cause an infinite loop of buying and selling, because nothing works that way, even in fantasy or sci-fi novels.


th3razzer wrote:
Voss wrote:
Quote:
Inventory is still a thing, and no shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

What? Uh... no. All shops do this. I've never wandered into a shop with empty shelves, barring going out of business sales or hurricane days.

I've come across hobby stores that keep a minimal amount of stock for tabletop miniatures games, but that pretty much immediately drives a lot of potential customers to the internet.

Having more stock than regular customers will buy is absolutely normal, otherwise you quickly end up with walk-in customers and nothing to sell them.

...oh my word, really? You don't say? Wouldn't you argue, then, that having stock - on hand - to meet the supply/demand of that particular item as stocking in relation to the regular influx of customers?

You twisted my words - bravo? Would you like a slow-clap? Perhaps an evil swivel-chair turn, evil cat on my lap, gasping that you've "sussed out my evil ploy"?

Extra inventory is essential to meeting demand, but you wouldn't argue that, say, if I keep 400,000 flashlights on hand (to use the earlier product example) when I sell only close to 100 or so monthly, that I was keeping "extra just in case"? Just so that I don't "have empty shelves"? It's not a 1:1 deal here, guy, it's a projection.

Of course the shop/store is going to have (at least, most shops should have) at least double, if not normally triple, the stock on-hand to meet any potential spike/fall in demand.

That was my whole point. The shop is not going to have an endless supply of item B so that you can rip item A out of it and then sell it right back to them, to repeat the process infinitely until the player feels they have just enough credits.

So yes, let's go back to my statement: No shop stocks more than its regular influx of customers.

Perhaps look up the word influx, then attach the word "regular", apply some common sense, then rinse and repeat until the definition of the sentence I constructed...

This is all wrong, but only because of the improper use of the words "no," "regular," and "influx."

A better formulation would be that most shops stock more than their projectd sales, adjusted by the cost of filling orders, which is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike what you wrote.

I don't expect you to take a supply chain management class before arrogantly and confidently proclaiming on subjects where you have only a dim understanding (it's the internet), but you might productively educate yourself by googling "economic order quantity" with particular attention paid to shortage costs and why you want to have more than you expect to sell on average.


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You can't use realistic economics when your scenario involves a flashlight that cost more to make than it sells for.


Another interesting thing is that singular charges have a different cost depending on the battery capacity/price.
Fully recharging the cheapest battery cost 3 credits per charge, while the more expensive ones cost range from 4 to 8 credits per charge.
(Not completely sure about the prices atm.)

So you better charge a few cheap batteries and transfer the charges to bigger ones later to save money ...


It's 10' poles and ladders in spaaace!

Easily fixed, gun batteries don't work in flashlights, and vice versa (though some skill rolls could probably do it), and for the stuff like phones and lamps that are cheaper than the battery, just say they're non-removable.


Pax Rafkin wrote:
You can't use realistic economics when your scenario involves a flashlight that cost more to make than it sells for.

The flashlight doesn't cost more to make than it sells for, it costs more for a single person to make than they can sell it for. I can go down to my local farmers' market and get a handmade satchel from a stall, or I can get a cheap factory version. How many people will buy a slightly more robust flashlight rather than just go to Abadar-Mart?


The funny part is that we're talking about the planned obsolence and e-waste problems as applied to Starfinder. I play my games to escape, not simulate! :)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
d'Eon wrote:
Pax Rafkin wrote:
You can't use realistic economics when your scenario involves a flashlight that cost more to make than it sells for.
The flashlight doesn't cost more to make than it sells for, it costs more for a single person to make than they can sell it for. I can go down to my local farmers' market and get a handmade satchel from a stall, or I can get a cheap factory version. How many people will buy a slightly more robust flashlight rather than just go to Abadar-Mart?

That is a point. The (player character based) equipment creation system assumes you are going to use UPBs, which I imagine are expensive to manufacture. Most factories, on the other hand, will probably be using specifically raw foods, metals and polymers, which will drive down costs a huge amount.


Comm Units do not use ammunition batteries because they are computers:

Self-Charging Page 216 wrote:
While most computers can operate for up to 24 hours on internal batteries ...
Comm Unit page 218 wrote:
A personal comm unit is pocket-sized device that combines a minor portable computer (treat as a tier-0 computer ...


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

One of the devs assured me that they had some people with actual classes in economics involved in the game creation this time. *facepalm*

Obviously I got my hopes up for nothing.


mdt wrote:

One of the devs assured me that they had some people with actual classes in economics involved in the game creation this time. *facepalm*

Obviously I got my hopes up for nothing.

Unfair critique. I mean I have had econ classes, doesn't mean I am an expert or I can't miss things same with the people they brought in.

It could have been an oversight, OR those people know something you don't that makes it correct.

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