Can grenades be retrieved?


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TL;DR Can grenades be recovered like other thrown weapons?

Explanation of all my confusion:
I was looking through the equipment rules and I noticed how expensive grenades are. I expected for grenades to be consumable, but at the prices that the grenades are at, them being consumable would be ridiculous. Let's compare it to a heavy explosive weapon:

Frag grenade III is level 8 and does 4d6 damage in a 15 ft radius and costs 2560

The Red Star Plasma Canon is level 8, does 2d10 in damage in a 5ft radius and costs 8650

If I use 4 frag grenades III I just spent 2000 more credits than the plasma canon's cost and what did I get out of it. An average of 14 damage in 15 feet 4 times rather than an average of 11 damage in 5ft for as many times as I have charged batteries, and you can charge them on your ship.

If they're expendable, the only character that would use them is a bombard soldier.

Now I know Paizo wouldn't make a mistake this obvious, however it is not stated explicitly that grenades can be recovered. But, in the thrown weapon quality it says thrown weapons can be retrieved, but a grenade isn't said to have the thrown property, but it does say ranged weapons that need to be thrown are in the category so I'm very confused.


So you want one of those re-usable frag grenades where all the shrapnel is attached by elastic?


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The costs are one thing but the logic of what you're suggesting is insane. Explosive grenades are destroyed by use, by definition.

For a house rule you might drop the cost of grenades by a factor of 10, or maybe add a feat to never run out of grenades or something.


Eh. It isn't remotely difficult to think of reusable.
more so with high tech.
Frag ? Well you just refill it with sand.
Elemental? even easier fuels.

I could really see the actual mechanism costing a bit. then cheap refuelers. Or "condenses stuff from the air" making it so it can only be used once every hour or two or something.

Liberty's Edge

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Doesn't seem like good practice to just compare the average damage when grenades cover 6 times as many squares as a plasma shot. The value you're getting out of a grenade is going to go up massively the more targets you're facing.


The section on thrown weapons says that thrown weapons are retrievable, there is no clause that says grenades are exempt.


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I'd say they work like Phaser Grenades in Star Trek. They can be recharged/refueled/rearmed given time outside of battle (Like on your ship).

That's purely 'What I think' though. I imagine we'll get an official ruling that they are 1 shot before long.


I hope they are rechargable considering their cost.


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I think the writers thought it was so obvious that a grenade is destroyed when used that they didn't think it was necessary to state it.

They are meant to be expensive, because they are powerful. Making them cheep would be equivalent to giving out unlimited fireballs.

GM: "you reach a door."
Player 1: "I open the door and toss in a grenade."
Player 2: "I toss in a grenade too."
Player 3: "My character also tosses in a grenade."
GM: "The room is empty, apart from the debris from your grenades. Across the room you see another door."
Player 1: "I cross the room, open the door, and toss in a grenade."
.
.
.
etc

I do think is was a design error to really so heavily on currency to limit character power, but that is very much the path that has been chosen, and we are pretty much stuck with it.


Ikiry0 wrote:

I'd say they work like Phaser Grenades in Star Trek. They can be recharged/refueled/rearmed given time outside of battle (Like on your ship).

That's purely 'What I think' though. I imagine we'll get an official ruling that they are 1 shot before long.

The problem with this is that because the text trumps the table, grenades have the thrown property and can thus have the Returning weapon fusion applied to them.


The Lost King wrote:
a grenade isn't said to have the thrown property
Colette Brunel wrote:
grenades have the thrown property

Someone is wrong here?


I am working off the description of the thrown property, which prescribes that all thrown weapons must have the thrown property.


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"Once detonated, the weapon is destroyed, just like a grenade."

This should be spelled out in the grenades section, but for now Mechanic has an entry covering how they work.


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QuidEst wrote:

"Once detonated, the weapon is destroyed, just like a grenade."

This should be spelled out in the grenades section, but for now Mechanic has an entry covering how they work.

I'm guessing they never in a million years thought they had to spell out that grenades explode.

Dark Archive

Paizo has a long history of grossly overpricing one-shot items. Why would you assume it was any different this time?

Shadow Lodge

I put the returning property on my grenade...once

Booom!


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If you throw the grenade and it explodes; then its not reusable.

If you throw the grenade and it does not explode; Stay the hell away from it!


Reef wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

"Once detonated, the weapon is destroyed, just like a grenade."

This should be spelled out in the grenades section, but for now Mechanic has an entry covering how they work.

I'm guessing they never in a million years thought they had to spell out that grenades explode.

They (or WotC, I can't remember which) had to once spell out that DEAD PEOPLE can't take actions, so, it's not unexpected.

Unless there's a FAQ or errata that explicitly tells me otherwise, I'm gonna assume that GRENADES ARE DESTROYED UPON USE, by definition. :)


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Colette Brunel wrote:
Ikiry0 wrote:

I'd say they work like Phaser Grenades in Star Trek. They can be recharged/refueled/rearmed given time outside of battle (Like on your ship).

That's purely 'What I think' though. I imagine we'll get an official ruling that they are 1 shot before long.

The problem with this is that because the text trumps the table, grenades have the thrown property and can thus have the Returning weapon fusion applied to them.

HAHAH just because you can have a boomerang grenade does not mean that it is a wise idea to do so. If one of my players wants to do this I will totally let them try. Obvious consequences are obvious.


Depends on the grenade. I could see a fully energy-based one going off like a disco ball, only to be later picked up. Any form of non-explosive chemical load could just be reinserted into the container.


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I could see bringing back an old joke when fighting complete idiots.

"The bad guys threw a grenade at us. I picked it up, pulled out the pin, and threw it back at them."


David knott 242 wrote:

I could see bringing back an old joke when fighting complete idiots.

"The bad guys threw a grenade at us. I picked it up, pulled out the pin, and threw it back at them."

And if they throw a pin at you, duck!


I think grenades obviously aren't reusable, but they really should cost around 10% of what they do. A 20th level Frag Grenade VIII costs 216,000cr and at 20th level your WBL is 3,775,000cr which means a single grenade costs 5% of your 20th level WBL.

Shadow Lodge

The Sideromancer wrote:

Depends on the grenade. I could see a fully energy-based one going off like a disco ball, only to be later picked up. Any form of non-explosive chemical load could just be reinserted into the container.

Spell storing device - insert area effect into sphere. Press button, throw, release, and recover to store again.


That is interesting almost seems like its priced for a box of grenades not a single one. That said it is one way to keep them as something you are not just throwing around willy nilly.


kaid wrote:
That is interesting almost seems like its priced for a box of grenades not a single one. That said it is one way to keep them as something you are not just throwing around willy nilly.

I suspect being a deterrent to throw them around willy nilly is exactly the reason for the outlandish prices. As someone upthread mentioned, otherwise standard procedure would be 'open door, everyone roll in a grenade or two, close door. Repeat as necessary'.

That being said, if that sort of tactic isn't a problem with your group of players (one way or another), price lists are about the easiest thing to houserule there is.


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The posters that are dismissing the OP's question are displaying a lack of imagination considering Starfinder's setting. They don't have to be WW2-style fragmentation grenades.

Many other sci-fi series' make use of rechargeable/re-usable grenades (ex. Star Trek's stun grenade) so I'm not seeing why reusable Electricity (EMP) or Sonic (Stun? Knockback?) type grenades are out of the question.

Dark Archive

Reef wrote:
kaid wrote:
That is interesting almost seems like its priced for a box of grenades not a single one. That said it is one way to keep them as something you are not just throwing around willy nilly.

I suspect being a deterrent to throw them around willy nilly is exactly the reason for the outlandish prices. As someone upthread mentioned, otherwise standard procedure would be 'open door, everyone roll in a grenade or two, close door. Repeat as necessary'.

That being said, if that sort of tactic isn't a problem with your group of players (one way or another), price lists are about the easiest thing to houserule there is.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily a problem what-so-ever; using flashbangs in the way pretty much the de rigure way to breach a room these days based on what I understand. The problem with rolling explosive grenades is there is that you risk damaging materials and non-combatants.


It's not displaying a "lack of imagination", it's common sense. Those other settings say the grenades can be reused, Starfinder does not. Reusable grenades are outside the norm and need to be called out they can be reused, not just assumed to be so.

No one is claiming reusable grenades can't be a thing, there's just nothing to suggest these are, EMP or fragmentation or otherwise.


BlackOuroboros wrote:
Reef wrote:
kaid wrote:
That is interesting almost seems like its priced for a box of grenades not a single one. That said it is one way to keep them as something you are not just throwing around willy nilly.

I suspect being a deterrent to throw them around willy nilly is exactly the reason for the outlandish prices. As someone upthread mentioned, otherwise standard procedure would be 'open door, everyone roll in a grenade or two, close door. Repeat as necessary'.

That being said, if that sort of tactic isn't a problem with your group of players (one way or another), price lists are about the easiest thing to houserule there is.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily a problem what-so-ever; using flashbangs in the way pretty much the de rigure way to breach a room these days based on what I understand. The problem with rolling explosive grenades is there is that you risk damaging materials and non-combatants.

It's a problem from the game sense. If the winner of the fight is always whoever kicks the door open and throws in a bunch of grenades, the game gets boring real fast.

Also deadly, since the baddies will do it to you just as happily. Same reason you don't let the casters cast their high level spells every round or even every fight.

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder CRB, page 362 in the Make Whole spell description wrote:

"Make whole can fix destroyed magic items, and it restores the magic properties of the item if your technomancer level is at least twice the item’s level. Items with charges (such as batteries) and single-use items (such as potions and grenades) can’t be repaired in this way. When you cast make whole on a construct, the spell bypasses any immunity to magic as if the

spell did not allow spell resistance.

Emphasis added by me.

At least here, it clearly states grenades are single use items.

Also, all grenades have the Explode Special Property.

Grand Lodge

Now I want to make cursed grenades that DO return when thrown.

If the device releases an energy pulse, sure maybe you can recharge it. A fragmentation grenade doesn't work like that, the casing becomes the shrapnel that does the fragging. Of course that's modern grenades. Nothing says you can't put a few of those universal polymer blocks inside, plug it into the wall for an hour, and be ready to go again.

Of course, depending on where you threw it, you may not want it back.


BlackOuroboros wrote:
Reef wrote:
kaid wrote:
That is interesting almost seems like its priced for a box of grenades not a single one. That said it is one way to keep them as something you are not just throwing around willy nilly.

I suspect being a deterrent to throw them around willy nilly is exactly the reason for the outlandish prices. As someone upthread mentioned, otherwise standard procedure would be 'open door, everyone roll in a grenade or two, close door. Repeat as necessary'.

That being said, if that sort of tactic isn't a problem with your group of players (one way or another), price lists are about the easiest thing to houserule there is.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily a problem what-so-ever; using flashbangs in the way pretty much the de rigure way to breach a room these days based on what I understand. The problem with rolling explosive grenades is there is that you risk damaging materials and non-combatants.

Soldiers can I believe make a level 1 grenade of whatever type they want as one of their abilities. So throwing cheap flash bang type stuff is probably still viable. But if you want max damage heavy fusion mini nuke grenades they appear pricey.

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thejeff wrote:

It's a problem from the game sense. If the winner of the fight is always whoever kicks the door open and throws in a bunch of grenades, the game gets boring real fast.

I agree that the grenade door trick can/will get old fast.

I was lucky enough to play at James Sutter's starfinder game at Paizocon, and the final fight came down to a closed door and both sides opening it and throwing smoke grenades on either side.
The Game ground to a halt until 1 side decided to just barge through and fight in a more standard way if I remember correct.


kaid wrote:
BlackOuroboros wrote:
Reef wrote:
kaid wrote:
That is interesting almost seems like its priced for a box of grenades not a single one. That said it is one way to keep them as something you are not just throwing around willy nilly.

I suspect being a deterrent to throw them around willy nilly is exactly the reason for the outlandish prices. As someone upthread mentioned, otherwise standard procedure would be 'open door, everyone roll in a grenade or two, close door. Repeat as necessary'.

That being said, if that sort of tactic isn't a problem with your group of players (one way or another), price lists are about the easiest thing to houserule there is.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily a problem what-so-ever; using flashbangs in the way pretty much the de rigure way to breach a room these days based on what I understand. The problem with rolling explosive grenades is there is that you risk damaging materials and non-combatants.
Soldiers can I believe make a level 1 grenade of whatever type they want as one of their abilities. So throwing cheap flash bang type stuff is probably still viable. But if you want max damage heavy fusion mini nuke grenades they appear pricey.

Much better- they can make one up to their level. Mechanics have their own grenade-production option in a fashion.


kaid wrote:


Soldiers can I believe make a level 1 grenade of whatever type they want as one of their abilities. So throwing cheap flash bang type stuff is probably still viable. But if you want max damage heavy fusion mini nuke grenades they appear pricey.

Only if you have the Bombard fighting style.

Grumpus wrote:
thejeff wrote:

It's a problem from the game sense. If the winner of the fight is always whoever kicks the door open and throws in a bunch of grenades, the game gets boring real fast.

I agree that the grenade door trick can/will get old fast.

I was lucky enough to play at James Sutter's starfinder game at Paizocon, and the final fight came down to a closed door and both sides opening it and throwing smoke grenades on either side.
The Game ground to a halt until 1 side decided to just barge through and fight in a more standard way if I remember correct.

The thing is you can do the same thing in pathfinder with an eversmoking bottle/horn of fog and goz masks/fog-cutting lenses, but I've never heard of any group using that combo much less abusing it.


Surely the obvious GM deterent to repeated use of the door/grenade tactic is collatoral damage, both to innocents as mentioned earlier and to machinery/equipment the players proably want, you know just like when the Wizard casts fireball into every room because they can and then finds out it was the library with all the Spell books and scrolls they wanted!


Khali937 wrote:
Surely the obvious GM deterent to repeated use of the door/grenade tactic is collatoral damage, both to innocents as mentioned earlier and to machinery/equipment the players proably want, you know just like when the Wizard casts fireball into every room because they can and then finds out it was the library with all the Spell books and scrolls they wanted!

Except the wizard doesn't cast fireball (and more importantly doesn't cast 4 or 5 fireballs) into every room because he doesn't have enough fireballs.

Make grenades cheap and you can do that.

Sure, it can be a deterrent, but we still don't just let everyone have cheap high end fireballs in PF.


thejeff wrote:
Except the wizard doesn't cast fireball (and more importantly doesn't cast 4 or 5 fireballs) into every room because he doesn't have enough fireballs.

You're playing the wrong sort of wizard than.

xD


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I can't believe this discussion actually happened.

Liberty's Edge

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I can. Just look at airsoft grenades. Completely re-usable, just need to be refilled with gas and pellets. Don't know why in a world with space ships and laser weapons they wouldn't be able to create a weapon capable of dispersing shrapnel in a 360 degree area around itself after being throw. It's not crazy to think that a weapon that costs about a third of a weapon that can be used almost continuously would be recoverable and made to be used again in another combat. That is, of course if you don't already know how much Paizo overvalues single use items.


It also doesn't help that Grenades are not honestly that damaging. They compare roughly with the blast heavy weapons but those weapons are infinite use.


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Ikiry0 wrote:
It also doesn't help that Grenades are not honestly that damaging. They compare roughly with the blast heavy weapons but those weapons are infinite use.

This, honestly, is the biggest thing in my mind that leads me to think that at least some of these should be considered reusable. An Alchemist's Fire costing as much as it does makes a sort of sense for the time period Pathfinder found itself in because there's more that one can be used for other than merely combat situations, but a grenade is literally ONLY going to be used for combat, so it makes no sense for it to be so expensive for such little relative payoff.

Like the person above said, a level 20 character buying the most expensive grenade would have to spend a whopping 5% of their gold just to buy it, what self respecting army would actually use these in a combat situation if they're so expensive?!


They wouldn't, they would buy level 1 grenades.

This is something that has been missed in the soldier vs solarion debates too: you are not always going to be able to afford to have all your gear at your level or higher. You are expected to continue to use lower level gear.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Don't forget the Grenade Expert (Ex) ability. Soldiers can always produce self-generated methane and tape grenades.

If you want to save money, make your own grenades. Just don't tell the party how you did it.


Matthew Downie wrote:
So you want one of those re-usable frag grenades where all the shrapnel is attached by elastic?

...well now that you mention it.


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Fardragon wrote:
you are not always going to be able to afford to have all your gear at your level or higher. You are expected to continue to use lower level gear.

The issue is, the intent seems to be that item your average item level is supposed to, roughly, equate to your level. They're meant to be items equivalent to the expected power level at that stage of play.

If you're meant to be using earlier grenades, then perhaps the item levels are not properly stated, rather than the credit value. I can't imagine a Level 10 character lobbing level 1 grenades over and over, for a whopping 1d6+10 damage at best, when compared to a tactical magnetar rifle that deals 2d8+10 damage to up to 6 targets for nearly half the cost of *even the level 1 grenade* in ammunition. Yeah, the grenade can hit up to like 30+ people, but that's only if everyone is packed-in incredibly close, and if you're even fighting that many people to begin with. Against single targets, it's worse, especially given you can double attack with that rifle, but not with the grenade.

Using a grenade of the same level is 6d6+10, but then you've spent 5,750 credits on that one attack. This, compared to your technomancer who can deal 9d6 fire from a longer range for a wider area of effect, and they can do that 4 times per day if they want for free if at the same level.

Unless you're specializing, and then constantly facing large squads of enemies at once, there's not much use to purely damage grenades. Status grenades? Maybe. Otherwise, they seem extremely situational, or require special abilities to use well (like Grenade Expert). Beyond that, I can't see why classes that either get them for free or get their own powerful AoE (which covers at least 4 classes) would ever want to buy them at any level - and even then.

But, that's all going off of what's on paper right now. In practice they may work out way better, which may be why they're so expensive.


gigyas6 wrote:
Unless you're specializing, and then constantly facing large squads of enemies at once, there's not much use to purely damage grenades. Status grenades? Maybe. Otherwise, they seem extremely situational, or require special abilities to use well (like Grenade Expert). Beyond that, I can't see why classes that either get them for free or get their own powerful AoE (which covers at least 4 classes) would ever want to buy them at any level - and even then.

You can't get specialisation in grenades, which drops the ability to use low level ones a lot.

My general ruling would be something like (And I'll freely admit, this is houserules): Grenades can be recharged/rearmed/replicated when you recover resolve (So functionally they are 1/day items). The exception to that is the soldier who has that 'once every 10 mins grenade' (So 1/encounter more or less)


gigyas6 wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
you are not always going to be able to afford to have all your gear at your level or higher. You are expected to continue to use lower level gear.

The issue is, the intent seems to be that item your average item level is supposed to, roughly, equate to your level. They're meant to be items equivalent to the expected power level at that stage of play.

My reading is you are expected to have about one item at or slightly above your level, with the rest of your gear lagging behind. Hence the low resale values on gear to discourage replacing it, and the money-sink ammunition.

Easy enough to check. Look at the "expected" credits at each level and compare it to the cost of fully equipping a character - I suggest a soldier - with a full set of equal level gear. You will find you don't have enough.

I don't like it - it puts a big load on the GM to keep dealing out the "correct" amount of wealth each adventure - but it's a clear design decision at the heart of Starfinder gameplay.

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