moosher12's page

Biohacker was not released until 2 years after SF1E Core rulebook (4 years for the evolutionist), so it's a similar trend. Otherwise the current class release is mostly stuff from SF1E Core rulebook being modernized as the priority. Can't make the whole previous edition in 1 book.

Where are the starfighter rules?

Starship combat is not going to be present until a later book. It is confirmed to come out, just not yet. I'd expect sometime in 2026? In the meantime, the GM Core will have a cinematic starship combat system that is simplified, but I understand that is not what you mean. I'd rest assured it is confirmed to come.

Where are the computer hacking rules?

The Starfinder GM Core is confirmed to have computer hacking rules. That book is expected in August.

QWhere are the 0-G combat rules?

The Playtest had zero gravity rules, so it should be in the Player Core (there are already spells that affect gravity, anyway). It was likely just not important enough to review. Books gonna be 450 pages, can't review everything. Try posting a response to the video asking about zero g stuff, they just might reply back with something more focused to it.

Where is the SCIENTIST class?

Down the line. Mechanic can work as the engineering side of a scientist theme, and should come out next year. Other scientist coded classes like the Biohacker and Evolutionist will come in due time. Just be patient. Paizo will likely do at least 2 classes a year. 2026 is confirmed to be Mechanic and Technomancer, and both 2027 and 2028 will be choosing from the following list most likely: Biohacker, Evolutionist, Nanocyte, and Vanguard. Then from 2029 onwards it'll be new stuff.

And while Inventor and Alchemist are from Pathfinder, who says they have to be rennaisance? An alchemist can easily become a chemist, and an inventor just needs to change its aesthetic from clockwork to plastic. The effects work universally, just give them the modern equipment, and don't think of the iconic character art. You see an Alchemist's Fire, I on the other hand see a thermite grenade.

If what you want to do is run a custom system the way you describe, I'd recommend just waiting until the system has the content you want. No rush mate. The system will only get more feature complete. And you can always start using it when it has the features you want. Though if you want hard scifi, Starfinder probably isn't for you. It's Science Fantasy. There has always been a lot of magic, and there always will be a lot of magic.

Pathfinder does already have emotion casting, on that note. It's from the Cathartic Mage archetype.

Let's get hype for the Team Go archetype.

Casmaron is a good point. To add to that, Shining Kingdoms had alluded to the plains of Casmaron east of Taldor as well.

I have one concern about making one class that has double the content. I'd worry that that would disincentivize older classes, as giving newer classes greater levels of attention would inherently devalue the worth of earlier classes.

You feel less bad about your favorite class having a finite amount of content when all of the other classes have a similar treatment, you know?

There are a few thematic spells to consider:

Cantrips: Read the Air
Rank 1: Lose the Path
Rank 2: Death Knell, Pack Attack, Paranoia, Silence
Rank 3: Burglar's Blind, Far Sight, Hypercognition, Sculpt Sound, Shadow Rank 4: Honeyed Words, Rewrite Memory, Tortoise and the Hare
Rank 5: Shadow Blast
Rank 6: Blanket of Stars, Blinding Fury
Rank 7: Ethereal Jaunt, Visions of Danger
Rank 8: Hypnopompic Terrors

Though I suppose going arcane this would be a relatively small list of spells to add.

Hm, perhaps an Infiltrator? That's not taken.

I guess the main reason we still gravitate to occult is that no matter how we phrase it, the occult spell list simply is the one that gives us the largest array of the infiltration spells, and Paizo's take on Occultism is designed to allow for it, whether or not it is culturally accurate, it works within the scope of the Lost Omens campaign setting. A character in the Lost Omens setting is not beholden to following the exact rules of Earth lore, especially when Earth bends those rules so often across many permutations off of common origins. So we are trying to work within Paizo's definitions and standards to choose what gets us the most accurate mechanical function. And what matters is if it is consistent within the Lost Omens Setting's lore.

We unfortunately cannot call it an assassin, because we already have the assassin archetype within the Remaster space. Back when I was trying to pitch a non-magical base form, I was pitching calling the ninja the slayer, after the 1E class, but slayer might not invoke the mystical aspects, so another name would probably be needed that can invoke all of the implications of being a ninja, without simply being an assassin. Plus slayer has a largely negative connotation that might not sound as good for a good character, like how we renamed the inquisitor to the vindicator. Plus there is an untold trend that all classes go by a single-word name, so we want to find a single-word name that fits the bill.

Also you are incorrect about Ninjas in Pathfinder 1E/D&D 3.5E being occult. Occultism did not exist in Pathfinder 1E. They were ki users, but ki was not tied to occultism until 2E.

PF2 does not want to give +1s here or there that aren't from proficiency or item bonuses. No class has "extra chance to hit" like that. If you want a +2 to hit, you get the opponent off-guard like anybody else.

Erm Ackchually

Though on the note, identifying a weakness akin to these feats might be thematic on a ninja. It's still infrequent of course.

You raise a valid point PossibleCabbage, perhaps a bounded caster would be acceptable then? A counterpart to the magus that trades off offensive potential and tankiness for stealth and intrigue potential might be another approach then. At the very least that can probably grant us mastery in spellcraft and weapon use to where both are equally viable, if not as good as a focused attention martial or caster. A pivot point can also be granting it the occult tradition instead of the arcane tradition to give it more identity, and then implanting the remaining spells as needed as Paizo says they plan to do for the Necromancer's final version. Reduce HP from 8 to 6. Light Armor training only. Instead of Arcane Cascade it could have a focused attention ability, perhaps setting up a one-sided duel with a single enemy to the detriment of lack of focus against secondary enemies, but you'd gain bonuses against the focused enemy. Just spitballing. Class features could be about satisfying a few gimmicks, poison use, packaging a few key traversal skill feats into one class feat, like the Barbarian does with intimidation feats, Feats that add remaining spells to the occult spell list to help specialize, feats that give bonuses to thrown weapons, quick draw, etc.

Basically, this class would be to the Magus as the rogue is to the fighter.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I always thought that the Warrior muse for the bard was supposed to be the skald replacement.

This is what I thought too.

There are two camps. People that like a caster chassis subclass and people that like a bounded caster chassis. Generally, said camps dont enjoy playing the gish version of the other camp.

I think there have been enough repeated vocal requests (clearly I am one said proponent) for this across the many years of pathfinder 2e that we can stop being "surprised" that people want this. This should be even less "surprising" for 3/4 BAB, 1/2 caster classes from PF1e like the bard, skald, mesmerist, etc.

You dont have to be in the bounded caster "camp" to understand or appreciate that clearly others find value in it and can accurately self identify that they would enjoy it more than the current available options.

So lets stop glossing over the community/customer demand. You can enjoy your warpriest and I can enjoy my Cleric+ armorclad doctrine and we can all exist together and not yuck each others yums.

I am more surprised they didnt just publish a generico caster class archetype that can convert any caster into a bounded caster version with some generic gishy feats. It wouldnt be as satisfying as class specific class archetypes, but it would be future proofed from the masses asking for a class by class bounded caster version. Then we could have a skald, shifter,warpriest, etc. With whatever caster feat list you like most.

I certainly won't mind the option. You've probably seen me fighting for us getting a ninja, so I can understand the want. And a more martial version of a bard with a diminished spell list seems appreciable, especially one that can cast spells while raging, so I do hope Paizo considers. It's not a camp I've got a personal stake in, but I can understand the appeal. I was just pointing out that I thought that that was the original intention of the Warrior muse. Cleric gave us both Warpriest Cleric and Battleharbinger Cleric, so there is precedent for a Warrior Bard and a... Not sure what a more agnostic term for skald would be, Warchanter Bard? Either way, there is probably room for both.

I still feel(and Hope) that Impossible will be an early 2026 release. Just based on how previous playtests corresponded to the release of the book.

And at GenCon they've always announced a new book with a playtest after the con.

Have we ever had a class book get published outside of Gencon release?

I always thought that the Warrior muse for the bard was supposed to be the skald replacement.

I cannot say I'm an expert in Buddhism, as I am not a Buddhist, but I have tried to do research into it in an attempt at making a wuxia themed character a few years back. What I say ahead will probably not be from a place of expertise, as it's referring to religious philosophy, and even in my attempts, the sources I found are often contradicting, as Buddhism is divided into so many split-offs such as chan buddhism, shinto buddhism, and so so many more.

There is a philosophy in place where while yes, mind, body, and soul are the three aspects, but the body is sharpened to keep the mind healthy, and the body needs to keep up with the mind's command.

Then there is the aspect of the soul. If I may get secular, there then lies the question of whether the soul is seperate from the mind, is a medium for the mind, is the home of the mind, or is the mind.

All I can say, is that some media does what it does. And for the sake of my point above, I'll treat mind and soul as a unit, and body as another:

Early Sakura has a weak body, but a powerful mind. Whatever the nature of her chakra, she can manipulate it through the fact her mind and soul are flexible and precise.

As for Naruto, no matter how many exercises he does, he will still struggle to walk on water when his spirit is out of wack. He has a strong body, and a rich source of spirit to work with, though his mind is often not the most precise. Naruto's usual arcs of growth are developing his faculties until he can use the next major thing. But most of these things are exercises in mental control over a difficult process. How does one will their soul into a vortex? What part of body condition controls the precise flow and and shaping of chakra? Wouldn't that be an aspect of mental exercise?

In the end, most of the epiphanies that lead to a jutsu breakthrough in Naruto, tend to be a mental one. An example is the book, Name of the Wind. A somewhat occultist take on magic by paizo standards. Int hat book, magic users have to do very difficult mental exercises to condition their mind for magic. One mental exercise used, for example, was splitting your mind into two people, having one partition hide an object in an imaginary room, while the other partition tried to search for it, while willing both halves of yourself to not communicate with one another. That's always been the sort of thing I imagined happening with Naruto. Mental exercises that mold willpower into manifestation. And that's what the description of Occultism jived with the most when I read its letter in Secrets of Magic.

To me, occultism is not otherness, it is not stories. To me, occultism is psionics. It is will manfiest, it is self molding of your own life force. To me A bard creates magic not by reciting a story, or singing a song, but by using the performance as a mnemonic to attune and exert their will. A psychic and a monk just use different kinds of mnemonics. The difference is in the ways that they focus their minds.

Occultism is not just connection with stories. Occultism, at least as it was explained in Secrets of Magic in Legacy, is a force of willpower to impose your will upon the universe. It is using your mind and mental control to exert magic. That is why monks have the choice to be occult casters when they take a focus spell, and why psychics are occult, because occultism can take the form of that psionic force where you channel your mana/ki/chi/qi/aether/chakra/etc into a physical manifestation. My only experience with ninja is frankly Naruto, but their chakra manipulation system would not be so different from this aspect of occultism.

But you are right, that arcane has a lot of aspects we'd want. I was considering summon animal for tracking animals like dogs and the like, so that makes sense. And while I don't think it's necessary to make an otherwise very functional ninja, getting some elemental attack spells from the arcane school would also be nice, as that would definitely fulfill some more Naruto specific fantasies for me.

There are two ways we can do that, which have been explored by Paizo, actually. The first is the Magaambyan Attendant's Halcyon casting, and the second is the Red Mantis Assassin.

The Red Mantis Assassin's approach was to give us Divine Casting, and then bring in arcane spells of choice via a spell curriculum.

Meanwhile the Magaambyan Attendant's Halcyon casting is a full combination of arcane and primal magic. And it's Halcyon spell tradition can choose from both freely.

And as a third point, the sorcerer, cleric, and a few other casters have means of implanting spells from other traditions into their respective traditions in limited quantities.

So these can be inspiration points from which to drop in arcane spells into occultism, or vice versa. I'd personally lean occult because occult will give more of that ki/qi/chakra-use feeling that the monk already invokes, and it's spell list is better attuned to intrigue, giving the majority of the core aspects of being a ninja on its own, but from there, arcane spells that are missing can be added to the list as exceptions. Perhaps something akin to wizard spell curriculums to grant bonus spells to reflect different ninja themes? That's how the Red Mantis Assassin implaneted its arcane spells into the divine tradition in the first place. Perhaps there can be a curriculum for beastmastery, one for each element, etc. Or perhaps a full combination of the schools is possible, though I get the feeling that'd be a disproportionate proportion of the power budget.

Plus Burglar's Blind would be the perfect ninja spell, but it is occultism only.

I mean, we're not getting a ninja class anyway. We're getting a Guardian class, we're getting a Commander class, we're getting a Necromancer class, and we're getting a Runesmith class, and there's probably classes after that (not to mention all of the SF2 classes that you could import.)

Always room. Sure, the next two years are booked, but the years after that? In addition, one of the fun things about a class that enables ninja stuff is ninja appear in both olden times fantasy, as well as modern fantasy, and scifi so there is room for Starfinder to do it, too, once they catch up to their missing classes.\

It's important for us to voice what interests us so that it can be a consideration point when the time comes to select the next two classes for Pathfinder. I mean, if there are classes a larger proportion of community as a whole would rather have, of course, do them first. But there is always the year after.

And the way I see it. We have an arcane gish (Magus), and a divine gish (Battle Harbinger Cleric). There is still room for an Occult gish and a Primal gish. A class that can enable the faculties of a ninja, while being more culturally agnostic, can certainly fill the role of the Occult gish. (And not to get too off-topic, but the return of the old shifter can probably tie into the Primal gish). The class itself does not need to be a ninja. But what we want is a class that can easily be a ninja without hiccups. If Paizo could figure out how to give us a jedi in the form of a Solarion, they can probably figure out something that is not specifically a ninja, but can very much be a ninja. If the hangup is that it cannot be too reliant on a culture, then I think the talented writers at Paizo have more than enough capability to make a creative solution that both does the job, and stands on its own.

As an example, let's look to the Starfinder team, they just did an AMA while playing Warframe, the game about biomechanical space ninja surrogates. Warframes do not call themselves ninja, they call themselves Warframes (well, they call themselves other things sometimes, but spoilers), but they move, sneak, ambush, and do a lot of ninja stuff on top of their own brand of cool seemingly magical powers. They also use guns, gun ninja is actually a pretty popular scifi ninja trope, to show that a class that lets you be a ninja does not have to be only katanas and kunai. Paizo I trust is more than capable of making something that can be a ninja, and can be a ninja well, but is its own thing, that expands upon the capabilities of a ninja beyond its trappings of origin, as many other creators have done already.

moosher12 wrote:

I wonder how much extra martial capability you could balance in if you used a 2 spell slot per rank arrangement like the psychic (though with normal cantrips). The warpriest is a 3 spell slot per rank allotment, after all. Another potential balance point is making them a glass cannon, and using a 6 HP scale instead of an 8 HP scale. Making them squishy as such could also incentivize adjusting their kit to encourage playing to enemy weaknesses, staying stealthy, and using their ninjutsu to get close and get away.

Cutting to 2 spells per level is probably a good idea, but it also leaves the ninja behind the regular magus in spell slots until 5th level which is awkward. Not sure what to do about that. Cutting HP is definitely another lever that can be pulled, and is smoother.

Actually 2 spell slots per rank would be equivalent to a Magus from levels 1-4, and would exceed a magus from level 5 onward.

Both a magus and the psychic have 1 spell slot at level 1, 2 spell slots at level 2, 3 at level 3, and 4 at level 4. The magus however stays at a static 4, while from level 5 on, the psychic starts to gain more spell slots. There is technically the studious spells bonus slots, but that won't be enough to pull a magus ahead.

I wonder how much extra martial capability you could balance in if you used a 2 spell slot per rank arrangement like the psychic (though with normal cantrips). The warpriest is a 3 spell slot per rank allotment, after all. Another potential balance point is making them a glass cannon, and using a 6 HP scale instead of an 8 HP scale. Making them squishy as such could also incentivize adjusting their kit to encourage playing to enemy weaknesses, staying stealthy, and using their ninjutsu to get close and get away.

I do like your approach, Ryangwy.

At this point, you are making a class archetype for the magus, though, and that's a good thing.

Because a class archetype can grant benefits from level 1, you can grant the monk trait to weapons at that point. Then you can grant the thrown weapon range increase during the dedication feat at level 2.

Additionally, there are opportunities to generalize the theme culturally. It does not need to be Japanese swords only. And in addition to the weapons you listed, I'd like to suggest the shortsword and possibly the rapier. Following that, in addition to daggers and throwing knives, I'd recommend the corset knife. But ultimately, it might be a to find an acceptable rule for a blanket list of weapons by qualities, rather than listing specific weapons, such as perhaps Agile or Finesse trait with 1d6 base damage dice or less, for example. (On the Agile side, weapons like the Sap, Dart, and Blowgun might be thematic, while on the Finesse side are various permutations of knives, the shortsword, the rapier, and the wakizashi lie. Perhaps a ninja does not need a full sized katana anyway, that would probably skew slightly more samurai coded for the fighter anyway. Though it can always be added as an exception if really needed. Either way, using a generalized trait set will reduce the amount of specific exceptions that have to be added, while letting a lot of loosely related weapons fall under the umbrella for the purpose of future books)

From there, other feats would start to kick in at level 4, such as for Magical Surprise, Spellstriker, and a smattering of other thematic feats.

I'd use the approach of a personal blessing from a god, like in the event of Wrath of the Righteous. Think of it as a deluxe level Champion or Oracle. You can also probably call it a freak over-injection of otherworldly energies in what would be a geniekin or a nephilim, such that your lineage is tied to a particularly potent entity.

moosher12 wrote:

Bluemagetim wrote:

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.

I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

Except it's not doing exactly what other classes do, because other classes cannot even do it good. It's okay for there to be ven diagrams of strategic and tactical overlap. If the best one can say is "You can kind of be a ninja with all these concessions with this class," that's not "what other classes already do." That's "what other classes can partially do"

what you are describing sounds more like it would be best done with archtype that can be taken by any class to take on the ninja like skills and abilities.

One that prereqs stealth acrobatics and athletics probably. Allows you to make one of them expert at dedication.
Might also need to preq +2 str and Dex cause no matter the class you start as a ninja has to be athletic and stealthy.
Adds proficiency with some specific weapons make this a regional archtype and specific weapons becomes kind of sensible for the archtype (yes probably wasted on martials but thats the usual.) The weapons then are also a feature of the region in Golarian the archtype is from and not reality.
because its an archtype it can focus solely on the things you think make a ninja a ninja and leave the combat bent to the class you chose as your chassis (combat expressions vary quite a bit in existing tropes). That way you can make a laughing shadow magus to fight the way you want but the ninja archtype to be better at stealth and maybe add some ninja specific focus spells and feats. Some of the feats can focus on tracking, some on advanced focus spells, some on alchemist items like smokebombs. Be the ninja you want to be at the cost of class feats.
But this way anyone can pick the level of magic to martial they want by choosing their class and still be a ninja. And more importantly its balanced because...

An archetype would not be bad, though it'd definitely need to be at least a 2-page archetype.

We do already have a ninja-like archetype, that even has ninjutsu, but it's problematic. That's the Red Mantis Assassin. It has too much Lost Omens clout, it's too religiously coded, and it's too evil-coded. Sure, it has the assassin aspect, and it has the magic. But you cannot actually use it in a lost omens game without a GM going in and removing its requirements. If you want to be a ninja that does not worship a deity, and works off of cultivation like a monk, the Red Mantis Assassin isn't for you. If you want to be a ninja that fights for good, like how the Inquisitor is now the Vindicator, then the Red Mantis Assassin isn't for you. You'd have to change its proficiency with sawtooth sabers to something else, and all support for them to something else to keep equivalent strength, and you'd have to swap deity anathema-moderated spellcasting for another type of spellcasting, as removing the religious anathema is a balancing point for being able to choose from any divine spell, even if it might not seem like a huge balance point. So this is not only a point of deliberation for the home table that would cause a high degree of table variance, but simply an impossibility in a sanctioned game such as in Pathfinder Society. Which means we'd need a dedicated ninja that is both lore agnostic, religiously agnostic (and as a tie in, morally agnostic). A 2-page archetype could work, sure. Though I do question of 2 pages can do everything it wants to do. It could also reasonably be a 1-2 page expansion on the assassin archetype if it had to be an archetype.

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.

I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

Except it's not doing exactly what other classes do, because other classes cannot even do it good. It's okay for there to be ven diagrams of strategic and tactical overlap. If the best one can say is "You can kind of be a ninja with all these concessions with this class," that's not "what other classes already do." That's "what other classes can partially do"

The other thing about "ambush" as a mechanic is that Pathfinder is structurally not a game where it's generally possible to take down a credible opponent in a single attack or even a single round. Combat is supposed to have some back and forth in it. Like the Assassin archetype tops out on a 6d6 precision, and fort save where you die if you crit fail at level 12, and that takes five actions to pull off. I've never seen anyone even try to make this character.

When I say Ambush, I refer to Sneak Attack, Aim, and Hunt Prey. I consider those ambush abilities. A mild advantage for focused attention on a vulnerable target, not a quick finisher.

Ranger would actually be the closest if it was not for its lack of urban support. Ranger really needs favored terrain: urban, and favored enemy: humanoid.

Laughing Shadow is almost there, but it is lacking in many places.
-Sure, it can get in and out of places. But it lacks the tracking aspects you'd want for the bounty hunter role, because you also need to spec survival and perception (a ninja would likely want Legendary Reflex/Perception at the end).
-Because Magus is an Int caster, you'd also be dividing your necessary skills between Dexterity, Intelligence, and Wisdom to do the job. A ninja certainly would need to be a wisdom caster. The magus gets enough flak for needing 2 attributes to do its base expectations, introducing the need for a 3rd to get the flavor is quite the ask.
-Then, you have to deal with the problem of Magus being a bounded caster and having a hyper-limited spell slot allocation. Red Mantis Assassin is laughing all the way to the bank in the fact they simply have more versatility than a magus ever will on a given day. If anything, I'd probably propose a Psychic spell allotment for a ninja using 5 cantrips, if not a bard spell allotment.
-Lastly, magus can hit hard in general, yes, but it simply does not give the flavor of an ambush. It can do the same thing whether it is surrounded or alone. There is no reward for a magus tailing a specific target who is vulnerable beyond the baseline. It needs some Investigator/Operative/Rogue/Ranger/Slayer style advantage for a marked prey.

I'll give an answer then.

A ninja is a magical ambush martial that maintains a healthy balance between spell utility and martial prowess, toward the goal of tracking and incapacitating humanoid opponents. A ninja blends magic with tool use to infiltrate and exfiltrate areas, and track and ambush targets of interest with the aid of utility spells.

I want to play a character that can track someone through the wilderness like a ranger, or track someone through a city like an investigator, then dampen your sound and go invisible on the approach like a bard, ambush the target and get a few bonuses like how either the rogue or the ranger gets, all while doing cool things like using magic set pieces to cloak the area in darkness or mist, putting surrounding peoples to sleep, summoning mirror images for a prolonged fight, distracting the prey with an illusory creature, etc.

The red mantis school shows just a few of many spells that would be well applicable to these purposes. Red Mantis is already pretty much there, it just has all of the in-world clout of requiring you to be a worshipper of achaekek, which, frankly you do not need to be a mystical assassin like a ninja. I definitely don't think the Red Mantis Assassins should be the only ones allowed to have ninjutsu, because the Red Mantis Assassins basically have ninjutsu. As the Red Mantis Assassin added select arcane spells to the divine school, I'd think it prudent to instead add select arcane spells to the occult school, or vice versa.
cantrips: figment, gouging claw
1st: fleet step, illusory disguise, sure strike
2nd: invisibility, mist
3rd: clairaudience, paralyze
4th: clairvoyance, translocate
5th: hallucination, illusory scene
6th: mislead, phantasmal calamity
7th: duplicate foe, project image
8th: disappearance, unrelenting observation
9th: phantasmagoria

I don't think focus spells will be sufficient to fulfill the fantasy. Being able to do only one thing, even if it's once per 10 minutes, is gonna leave you wanting. Part of the fantasy of being a mystic ninja is having a decent repertoire of jutsu, and at one focus spell per feat, you'd run out of feats very quick before getting a fraction of what you'd want, especially as it's competing with your other ninja/slayer feats.

But more importantly, a lot of the jutsu you'd want already exist as arcane spells. I'd rather spend 3 feats to get 2 cantrips and 8 spells than I would to spend 10 feats to get 10 focus spells that I can only use 3 of at a time.

We already have the Bloodrager to show us we don't need to use only focus spells on martials. If a 12 HP tank can have 8 spells and 2 cantrips, I don't think it's out of line for the Slayer (If anything, I kind of wish Paizo would have considered that for the Champion and Ranger now that the Bloodrager got it for the former 1E Level 4 casters)

What did you think of my positioning-based hybrid of sneak attack and finishing blow as the basis for a mobile, flashy attacker that relies on set-up to dispatch foes they can't stand toe to toe with? I'd be aiming for a mechanic that goes from, "You idiot, I placed that trap there 12 seconds ago knowing you'd step on it. Now die!" to "Phew, if he'd stepped 5 feet to the side I'd be dead right now!" in the same package.

I'd be wary of too many conditionals, as it would take up a lot of page space to cover a broad range of conditions, and you'd likely run into a lot of situations where enemies just don't play along. It's essentially the Aikido problem.

But the idea itself is not bad from a flavor point, and I think you're onto something. Outsmarting prey and leading them into a trap. I'd probably suggest letting the Slayer modify the Feint action to do things other than make an opponent off guard. Say if you succeeded at feinting, you'd instead make them move 5 feet into a conveniently placed misc trap that does your choice of piercing or slashing damage, where higher tiers might instead make the trap do acid, fire, or other elemental damages. It gives you the idea of giving the appearance of a set-up, while not actually needing to plan very far ahead.

Is a top-down anime-inspired design the best way to ensure this class finds its audience? Do we want to pigeonhole the Ninja as the weeb class?

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just think it might make more sense to find their one unique thing and build from that and then dress it like a Ninja once the core works.

You are right, we want something more general, and a hook. That is the question. Lets take a look at its contenders

I'd say that if there is one thing this class can do, it's that it can trade off things the others don't need. From the rogue, it'd want the connection to the criminal underworld, the use of underhanded tactics like poisoncraft, but it does not need to be a dilettante, it does not need all of the rogue's class feats and trainings, nor does it need to be a face. So it does not need the generalized reaction of a sneak attack, nor the defense against being ambushed that a rogue has with its Deny Advantage ability. From the ranger, it would want an ability to mark a target, preferably from the beginning of a mission, and have benefits to tracking the target down, lying to the target, and general combat advantages against the target.

My suggestion from the other thread is to call it a slayer, and to try to combine the old slayer and ninja into one class, like how the Animist combined the Medium and the Shaman, and the Summoner combined the Spiritualist and the Summoner.

The slayer existed as a class whose focus was to essentially be an assassin. So it can have a "Mark Bounty" or some other sort of single action mark, that gives you a bonus to checks that get you closer to the target (Deception, Perception, Society, Survival, etc). If an Operator can ignore cover, and a ranger can get a bonus to AC against the target being defensive, then perhaps a slayer can be more offensive, and get a +1 bonus to attack and spell attack rolls against the target, like the 1E one did? We'll say it won't do precision, but it'll just have that easier time getting hits in due to their offensive focus. Essentially, what if it's a trained martial that's halfway to an expert martial against one designated target?

In regards to an attack booster, my first thought would be that a ninja probably does not need a sneak attack. A rogue is reactionary and opportunistic, a ninja on the other hand probably would lead toward an assassination of a high value target, which would take the form of an ambush, or if we wanted to get shounen with things, a duel. As such, I'd probably sooner inspire from the Assassin's Mark for Death, the Operative's Aim, and the Ranger's Hunt Prey abilities, but more particularly, the 1E Slayer's Studied Target ability, to let the ninja focus on a single target, rather than being able to react to every off-guard opportunity.

As for spellcasting, a ninja would probably be a squishy martial like a rogue would be. It is an option to give it focus spells, but I think a ninja wants to do too much for focus spells to satisfy. On the other hand, a ninja does not need so many spells that it needs a full 3-slot allotment. And lastly, not everyone wants to be a ninja that casts spells, so while a magi's spell slot is an option, I would not recommend it for a ninja. I'd suggest following after both the Ranger and the Bloodrager Barbarian, where you can choose to opt into magic with feat choice. As such, I'd propose granting it the ability to choose a Basic Ninjutsu feat at level 1, which grants 2 cantrips and basic spellcasting benefits, an Expert Ninjutsu feat at level 12, which grants expert spellcasting benefits, and a master ninjutsu feat at level 18, which grants master spellcasting benefits. The spellslot allocation of archetype spellcasting will give a ninja a lot of ammunition to play with various kinds of magic within an encounter, but not so much that they can just use ninjutsu willy nilly. Arcane I think is probably one of the better choices for an arcane school, as it gives a wide variety of both stealth and flashy abilities, though it does leave out healing. Occultism is an option that enables healing, but it lacks the flashiness that a Naruto fantasy might invoke. This would not be an archetype or a class archetype though, these feats would just be baked into the class as an option.

Part of me thinks that spontaneous casting would get a good amount of flexibility, but prepared casting with an internal learned spell list like the upcoming Necromancer has a certain appeal as well.

I'd think a ninja would prioritize Dexterity and Wisdom for being nimble, as well as for tracking. So I'd suggest making their spellcasting attribute Wisdom.

Thanks for explaining, least I now know where to find them, but those are definitely not obvious paths to take to arrive at player's guides. If it took me till today to learn that, then it took me years.

Thanks for the link. It makes me wonder though why AP's don't include a link to player's guides in their description. Would be very helpful for previewing an adventure.

Less a product, and more a chapter I'd wanna see in a product. But I'm running Kingmaker, and I realized that there is a rather annoying lack of river-capable boats for a party. And it made me think, I wanna see a book with a chapter that simply adds more vehicles and vehicle support across the board. More land, sea, and air vehicles that can fit the medieval/rennaisance, fantasy, and steampunk paradigms. Representation of more niche applications. More size-tiers for some existing vehicles, some advice for vehicles as bases of operations akin to what Starfinder 2E will eventually have for Starships, except for larger land vehicles, ships, and airships, etc.

Less an ancestry and more a heritage, but I just realized we don't yet have an Aquatic Elf heritage.

As Fabios said. Kineticist feels like it shines best when you're mixing and matching, but when you want to stay within a single element, it can at times feel like you don't have enough interesting options for the amount of slots you have to fill. I don't think it's a problem with the kineticist as a whole, I think it's just a problem with page count. Don't get me wrong, there are a LOT of kineticist abilities to choose from. But it's like having spells. More options is simply better.

As one example, wanting to play a pure air kineticist can be troublesome, especially when you actually only want air. No electricity, just air. And I'm sure folks that want to be pure electricity will encounter the counter-problem that they have to cut the choices almost in half to fulfill the fantasy they are going for. You're rich in options if you're trying to be a storm kineticist, but not so rich when you want to be specifically an aerokineticist or an electrokineticist to the exclusion of the other.

It wears too many hats right now and should be split into rarity and disruptiveness, and rated common to rare, and no risk to danger of campaign derailment.

100% agree there. A second disruptiveness measure would be very welcome. To add, when I tried Battletech, there is a 3rd meter to consider, legality. Battletech had a rarity and legality measure. Between the three, that'd be a lot of good information.

Why is it taking you longer to get up to speed with a setting than it did to outline it in the first place? The initial phase of the contest ran from June 6th to June 21st, then the 11 settings shortlisted submitted 10-page drafts for their pitch by the end of August, with the 3 finalists chosen in mid-October. From there, there was a 100-page draft was made by the 3 entrants, and the winner from these was chosen in early February 2003. So, at most 6 months to write an entire 100-page setting document, and it takes you a third of that just to read it?

No shade your way, but you seem like you like to take your time with things in a way most typically wouldn't.

It's an understandable question. Some folks just have to work a little harder to read. In the end, I know the Pathfinder world and setting very in depth. Definitely better than any of my players atm. But it was a lot of hard work and likely thousands of reading hours that I've poured into Pathfinder books. I'll call it a very productive day if I can cover 20 pages in a day with a feeling of understanding. But a full cover to cover reading is often approaching a month of reading.

Maybe a half month can be put into a book if I have literally nothing but time on my hands that week, but factor in the necessities of life, it quickly elevates to a month minimum.

This is a session zero issue, not a system's issue. You could make the same complaint about rarity in PF2.

I already alluded to rarity with this example here:

Hey I know this thing exists, but can I have it in this location?

I love rarity. I don't have to worry about whether or not something exists. I just have to worry about its commonality in the area. Instead of asking a question of, "Can I just make this exist in this setting?" I'm only having to ask the questions of, "Alright, what avenue can I use to get that item (or information in the case of intangibles less physical things) from point A to Point B, point B being this area's locale," or, "Do I just not want it here?" Whether the item has the capability to exist is a factor I don't have to grapple with. Only whether I can get the item to the setting locale.

This is more of a future-proofing question. But I remember in Galaxy Guide, it was mentioned that the language of Druidic/Wildsong was lost during the Gap, and that Druids no longer exist. During one of the Paizo Con panels, an encouraged example of cross play was being a druid.

I am a GM, and I want to brace for the potential of a player asking to be a druid. In a game that might allow Pathfinder entries, if lore was being followed, most every class with the exception of the Druid would be able to exist in the Starfinder timezone in some capacity.

Should GMs encourage a player to be a druid if they want to be one? Should they deny it? Could druids exist, but they simply cannot use Wildsong as a language, or is the Wildsong Language key to all druid powers. Of course, Rule 0 will let us homebrew as we wish, but the point still stands, that to allow a druid, we'd have to willfully ignore a principle well established to the 2E version of Starfinder by the Galaxy Guide. And I want to be prepared with how I should go about the request for a druid in Starfinder.

What's weirder to me is Starfinder 1E seems to make no mention of the Druidic language being lost to the gap, at least in the core books, and even includes advice for attempting to convert a druid to Starfinder 1E from Pathfinder 1E. I don't know if an adventure or adventure path established this. But assuming it was not mentioned, this seems to be a decision made for 2E, which feels odd as it imposes a pretty notable compatibility restriction by forbidding an entire class that seems to have been soft-allowed even in 1E.

I really hope it's the Impossible Book, it'd mesh so well with the remaining classes.

Plus, it's a rather "impossible" notion, which ironically, makes it feel more museable.

Toss in a few X is often problematic when working within APs though. The maps often feel cramped enough as it is with the encounters as they are.

Agreed. Very much agreed. But I'd hope they get more than just an Inventor/Gunslinger pass. We've seen enough people before that release saying that they did not even need a pass beyond simple errata. And now that we got a pass along those lines, we now see threads saying that they are some of the most lackluster classes. So whatever the case, I hope the remaining 4 classes get a proper remaster.

I'm still holding out hope that the Impossible Playtest's actual book will include such a pass for 2026, though realistically it does not feel likely to be such.

Versatile Heritage for heavily borged out ancestries. Not an android where they are a robot first. But a base ancestry that is so heavily modded out the gate that they get access to ancestry feats that revolve around being as much or more machine than their base ancestry.

Alright, turns out another panel, Adventures in the Cosmos, explains that this will be a free pdf that sounds akin to the Roleplaying Guild Guides. That's awesome. Looking forward to seeing it.

Because constructs (particularly those that were formerly golems) can no longer be crafted by PCs in 2E, I'd be interested in seeing a caster-oriented archetype that allows you to create a magical construct companion (as opposed to an inventor's construct companion) that might follow the rules of an animal companion similar to how a Mechanic's drone would.

Okay, second stab at the Gun Witch, because the criticism was correct: needs to be class archetype.

So normal class archetype stuff would apply and both spell casting and weapon proficiency would be made similar to the war priest. Witch's Familiar is replaced with
Pact Pistol: Has the stats of a flint lock pistol, and serves as your connection to your patron. It does not get the extra abilities that a normal witch's familiar gets and can only prepare master abilities. It automatically gains potency and striking runes as with automatic progression.

It also gains the unique familiar ability: Ready Familiar: when ever you cast or sustain a hex spell, your Pact Pistol automatically reloads with standard ammunition conjured from the ether, OR if you have instructed your familiar to, it will load special (magical or alchemical) ammunition you are wearing.

You gain the Hex Cantrip: Patron's Target. 1 action, with the Hex and concentrate trait. Sustained up to 1 minute.
When you cast this spell your weapon increases it's item bonus by one. in addition when you cast this spell and each time you sustain it you may step, demoralize, stride, recall knowledge, OR begin to aid an ally (as in the action to cast this spell, counts as one of the two needed to aid)

Feats in this archetype would include being able to designate a second 1 handed fire arm to automatically reload with your familiar ability. Being able to essentially exploit vulnerability if you chose to recall knowledge, gaining the intimidating glare feat, and allowing you to add your weapon bonus to the demoralize action you take with the hex cantrip, making the stride you take as a part of your hex cantrip not trigger RS.

On top of this, I want to see expanded gunwands and gunstaves. I want to see rules for costs and levels of a gunwand beyond rank 1 spells, and gunstaves beyond 1 cantrip and 1 rank 1 spell. Or at the very least, I'd like to see them pull a Runelord and implant their stave or wand in a gun they are wielding.

Sounds like an awesome mod! Hope the team does well in completing it. Man, would be really cool if Larian and Paizo wished to license Larian the Lost Omens Campaign Setting to make a game as well.