moosher12's page

I could see a mechanic from a place like alkenstar using clock work variants of mines/turrets/robots. A bit of a tricky fit but I think it could be done.

Operative could in theory use black powder guns so something along the lines of a gun slinger.

Solider is the main class that would be rough to make work. Close combat fighter maybe but otherwise probably not a great fit just due to the types of weapons needed.

I should specify the mechanic would be highly thematic to exist in alkenstar, if it was not for the tech trait. the main barrier was the tech trait being disproportionately powerful in Pathfinder as it's a justification for more potent power with an easy exploit. For example, the mechanic has a better drone than an inventor's construct. But it has the cost of being vulnerable to the glitch weakness. This works out in Starfinder where many enemies could exploit this weakness, but in Pathfinder, no basic enemy would be able to exploit it without the GM having to change the enemies to specifically counter the drone. So for practical purposes what you get is a drone that is a straight upgrade from the construct with no real downside, and the only way to remove the sensation of the upgrade is to make a lot of Pathfinder NPCs suddenly know how to inflict the glitching condition. The mechanic would need rules to convert tech drones and turrets into clockwork or construct ones, and have an easily exploitable weakness Pathfinder-side to offset the strong abilities. (Granted, this can be addressed with a sidebar. But I'm not sure if Paizo is willing to do conversion sidebars for specific cases, where the GM Core's conversion guidelines will likely be a lot more general, leaving the minutiae to table variance). Thematically, it could fit right in, mechanically it risks being overpowered without an alternate weakness.

Same for the Operator. It would be extremely thematic. You could make a perfect legolas for example if the operator had ranged weapon proficiency, or say the elf from Vermintide 2. But a vanilla operator would only get trained proficiency with black powder firearms, not expert proficiency, due to the way its rules work. I really hope they expanded gun to be Weapons with the Analog or Tech trait, PLUS weapons with the firearm or crossbow weapon groups, (bow weapon group would also be pretty thematic to the theme I said above, and at that point, you might as well just make it ranged weapons)

You can reasonably make it pretty rage-y. Our two comparison points are the bloodrager, which added spellcasting on top of full-rage. Additionally, Shining Kingdoms gave us the Ulfen Guard archetype, which adds nerfed rage to any class. A class archetype that gives the bard nerfed rage that allows you to spellcast while raging might not be unreasonable.

I like the idea of giving a choice between Arcane and Occult. How about for your key attribute giving a choice between Dexterity and the Spellcasting modifier?

On top of that, Charisma is not a bad choice, as it feeds well into intimidation and deception, but going further, I'd proposition a choice between Wisdom and Charisma for the spellcasting modifier. So you can choose to either focus on the charisma heavy stuff as said above, or on tracking with the bonus to Survival and Perception, to help reduce the Attribute tax, as you'd still want both a high spellcasting stat and a high dex.

We're also going to get more new classes from Starfinder 2e. Not that every SF2 class will work in Pathfinder without the tech you find in space, but some of them surely will (the operator and the solarian for example.)

As for classes that'd work well in Pathfinder, I'd say all of them work for the most part except for the Mechanic, Operative, and Soldier, of which you can only use use subclass each in a Pathfinder game. For other classes you might at most have to ban a handful of feats that won't apply, or grant stuff too early, like the Mystic's Wild Bond feat But the classes would be extremely limited for the following reasons:

-Mine Mechanic: Because the tech trait is balanced around getting a little extra power but being vulnerable to glitching, only the mine mechanic could reasonably be used in Pathfinder, as there won't be many justifications for enemies to abuse this weakness.

-Striker Operative: Striker Operative would be the only one that can function in Pathfinder, as Operatives as a whole only get their best proficiencies with Analog and Tech ranged weapons (believe it or not, a gun from Pathfinder is not considered a gun for the purpose of an Operative), of which all Pathfinder weapons are Archaic. Even then, an Operative in Pathfinder would only get its proficiency with melee weapons, as if the operative picked up any archaic ranged weapons, they would not get the proficiency, even if they were still simple weapons. For a GM, it might be worth making a home rule to change their training from guns (analog and tech ranged weapons) to ranged weapons in general, especially since guns define ranged weapons with the analog and tech trait regardless of whether it is conventionally a gun. (A starknife might be considered a gun when thrown, and there is also an advanced form of crossbow that is considered a gun. But whether or not a thrown analog melee weapon is considered a gun is probably gonna be a matter of brief debate, and we'll know for sure which interpretation to pivot if in a future book they make an analog bow or analog shuriken. If ever an analog bow or an analog shuriken is released, Operative might as well just have ranged weapon proficiency in general, then). I was hoping that the definition would be changed, but the Starfinder stream earlier this month indicated that they still specifically have gun proficiency, so unless they changed the definition of a gun, I don't anticipate things being different from the playtest in that aspect.

-Close Quarters Soldier: Other soldiers rely on weapons that are ultra rare on Golarion.

A special note for Technomancer, who is surprisingly devoid of actual technology. It might need some finangling for the Spell database though. Not sure how to make that work. Wisdom crystal maybe? An akashic node? Unfortuately the ability to redownload spells means a Spellbook is out. You;d have to either find something thematically equivalent to the Spell Database, or make a home rule to replace it with something else, which makes it dubious.

Yes, please, some slowdown for new classes and more options for existing classes, especially some of the newer ones with unique mechanics like Kineticist. More class archetypes as well, those help porting over old 1E character concepts.

I honestly think this glut of something like six new base classes per year is very quickly going to lead to burnout. I remember very well that by Occult Adventures in 1E many of my players were just done with the constant churn of new base classes.

I think it'd be prudent to put things into perspective. While there were a lot of class rereleases, I would not call them new classes. It was more of a semi-mandatory thing to rerelease classes into the ORC because they are a bit finnicky, especially from the legal side (For example, if a 3rd party publisher makes an adventure for Pathfinder using either the ORC or the OGL license, they are locked to only using content from one version of the game or another, with no legal ability to mix. If I designed an adventure where a major NPC was a magus, I would not be allowed to do that in a book using ORC rules until the Magus got remastered). There is one way you can mix, but it is by using Pathfinder's Infinite license, but it has its limitations that would dissuade some projects as well, as there are some IP risks if you do the wrong project with it.

But onto actual growth
2019: 12 new classes (Core Rulebook, our starting set)
2020: 4 new classes (Advanced Player's Guide)
2021: 4 new classes (Secrets of Magic and Guns and Gears)
2022: 2 new classes (Dark Archive)
2023: 1 new class (Rage of Elements), plus 8 class rereleases (Player Core)
2024: 2 new classes (War of Immortals), plus 8 class rereleases (Player Core 2)
2025: 2 new Pathfinder classes (Battlecry), plus 2 Pathfinder class rereleases (Guns & Gears Remastered), plus 6 new Starfinder classes (Player Core)
2026: 2 new Pathfinder classes (Impossible Playtest), at least 2 new Pathfinder class rereleases (Dark Archive Remaster; this leaves Secrets of Magic and Rage of Elements awaiting a remaster, though as Kineticist was already designed with the remaster in mind, it would likely not get much of a rebalance, just a change of book licensing is what I anticipate), plus 2 new Starfinder classes (Tech Class Playtest)

The point is, for the last 4 years, we've been actually hovering around 2 new classes per year or less, and any additional classes are just a chore that Paizo sort of just has to get done due to the OGL fiasco (And I say chore lovingly, I actually look forward a lot to the remasters, but I know well it put a dampener on Paizo's plans, as if there's anything you don't want to let be untouchable, it'd be having untouchable classes).

Casmaron is a good point. To add to that, Shining Kingdoms had alluded to the plains of Casmaron east of Taldor as well.

I have one concern about making one class that has double the content. I'd worry that that would disincentivize older classes, as giving newer classes greater levels of attention would inherently devalue the worth of earlier classes.

You feel less bad about your favorite class having a finite amount of content when all of the other classes have a similar treatment, you know?

I also feel like what you're asking for is just a variant ranger. The ranger already has a chassis that fits what you described. All it needs is an appropriate Hunter's Edge and an expansion of focus spells. Basically a ninja-themed alternative to the Vindicator.

If a class has to buy consumables to perform a major aspect of its theme, the class is not actually capable of that theme, unless it can produce those consumables for free.

A fighter buying a bunch of health potions does not make the fighter a healer class.

The reason we don't want a focus spell caster is because focus spells mean you realistically will only know like 3 supernatural things, and those 3 things are extremely expensive, as each one thing is a whole class feat that has to compete with various other utility feats. The maximum amount of spells you'd ever be able to learn is 10, and that's at the cost of every other class feat. And by the time you're auto-generating scrolls like a spell trickster in class form, you might as well have prepared spell slots, as scrolls are just prepared spells you have to spend an extra interact action to draw. And I'll reiterate the point that a lot of spells you'd want as a ninja already exist as ranked spells within the Arcane and Occult traditions, and it'd be redundant to do the same spells but as focus spells.

So it raises the question. Spend 3 feats to only know 3 spells, or learn 40 spells for free, and be able to prepare 4 a day as the needs change, plus 5 cantrips?

A final point is page count. Focus spell lists are simply very small, which means there will never be enough focus spell variance to make everyone happy. While spells can be drawn from the already existing spell lists without needing all the extra pages. I'd be surprised if the ninja got more than 4 pages of focus spells (the monk only got 3), which is not a lot of variety for how many things people expect from a ninja.

Assuming the Operative has not changed much from the Playtest, it would be in the same space as the rogue for the purpose of making a ninja. It'd make for a good mundane ninja, but it would not make for a good jutsu-using ninja.

The Operative is essentially just a hybrid between the Gunslinger and the Rogue, with a variant version of the Precision Ranger's Hunter's Edge. An operative can make for a kung fu action hero, a sniper, or solid snake. (Then there is the issue that many classic ninja weapons are not analog or tech weapons, and are instead archaic weapons, which operatives cannot use as easy. Though there is the debate on whether a knife is a "gun" when being thrown.)

Hm, this might be a stretch, but bare with me. How about Spy? I know spy has a bit too much of a modern bent. And fictional spies are associated with using advanced technology. But in a fantasy world, a spy would likely be willing to use any tool at their disposal, including magic. So perhaps flexing the name Spy to encompass a melding of magic and gadget use? Could even take the witch approach where it can cast spells, and might get an allotment of gadgets per day (the witch had potions).

Looking forward to reading it.

You are right though that skirmishing should not be the sole definition of a ninja, but I think it can be an aspect. Spellcasting can lend the mystic aspect, and perhaps another ability could lead into the espionage aspect.

Skirmisher certainly would not be a good name for the class as a whole, Infiltrator maybe? But it still can seem pretty mundane, unless one is willing to try to feed the definition that it puts all tools toward infiltration. I really wish we could just say Ninja. It is annoying trying to find an alternate term for a ninja when ninja does the theme best.

But a ninja can be a skirmisher, and our problem is that we cannot specifically be a ninja because it's too culturally coded. We need something culturally agnostic. We cannot make a ninja directly, but we can make something that can be a ninja. Plus, a conflux spell does not make for a core mechanic, for a core mechanic, you'll want something repeatable. Placing your core mechanic in a focus spell slot would be extremely limiting, especially at lower levels where you'd only have 1 focus slot. Your core mechanic needs to be something repeatable every round, or at the worst, every two rounds.

Wikipedia describes a ninja as having functions in infiltration, ambush, reconnaissance, and espionage. So these are points we can pivot on. I believe skirmishing would fall under the ambush aspect.

Furthering on the concept, what if it kept that 3rd action for setup into the next turn. Such as for sneaking or taking cover once you've gotten some distance.

I've been thinking. What if a core aspect of the ninja was making it a ranged melee. A character that closes in but has to be chased. Perhaps it can have an innate spring attack like ability, say a 2-action activity that lets them move, strike, then move. So it would spend 2 actions a turn to either ranged strike twice with MAP, melee strike once, or cast a spell, while often ending turns away from the target.

There are a few thematic spells to consider:

Cantrips: Read the Air
Rank 1: Lose the Path
Rank 2: Death Knell, Pack Attack, Paranoia, Silence
Rank 3: Burglar's Blind, Far Sight, Hypercognition, Sculpt Sound, Shadow Rank 4: Honeyed Words, Rewrite Memory, Tortoise and the Hare
Rank 5: Shadow Blast
Rank 6: Blanket of Stars, Blinding Fury
Rank 7: Ethereal Jaunt, Visions of Danger
Rank 8: Hypnopompic Terrors

Though I suppose going arcane this would be a relatively small list of spells to add.

Hm, perhaps an Infiltrator? That's not taken.

I guess the main reason we still gravitate to occult is that no matter how we phrase it, the occult spell list simply is the one that gives us the largest array of the infiltration spells, and Paizo's take on Occultism is designed to allow for it, whether or not it is culturally accurate, it works within the scope of the Lost Omens campaign setting. A character in the Lost Omens setting is not beholden to following the exact rules of Earth lore, especially when Earth bends those rules so often across many permutations off of common origins. So we are trying to work within Paizo's definitions and standards to choose what gets us the most accurate mechanical function. And what matters is if it is consistent within the Lost Omens Setting's lore.

We unfortunately cannot call it an assassin, because we already have the assassin archetype within the Remaster space. Back when I was trying to pitch a non-magical base form, I was pitching calling the ninja the slayer, after the 1E class, but slayer might not invoke the mystical aspects, so another name would probably be needed that can invoke all of the implications of being a ninja, without simply being an assassin. Plus slayer has a largely negative connotation that might not sound as good for a good character, like how we renamed the inquisitor to the vindicator. Plus there is an untold trend that all classes go by a single-word name, so we want to find a single-word name that fits the bill.

Also you are incorrect about Ninjas in Pathfinder 1E/D&D 3.5E being occult. Occultism did not exist in Pathfinder 1E. They were ki users, but ki was not tied to occultism until 2E.

PF2 does not want to give +1s here or there that aren't from proficiency or item bonuses. No class has "extra chance to hit" like that. If you want a +2 to hit, you get the opponent off-guard like anybody else.

Erm Ackchually

Though on the note, identifying a weakness akin to these feats might be thematic on a ninja. It's still infrequent of course.

You raise a valid point PossibleCabbage, perhaps a bounded caster would be acceptable then? A counterpart to the magus that trades off offensive potential and tankiness for stealth and intrigue potential might be another approach then. At the very least that can probably grant us mastery in spellcraft and weapon use to where both are equally viable, if not as good as a focused attention martial or caster. A pivot point can also be granting it the occult tradition instead of the arcane tradition to give it more identity, and then implanting the remaining spells as needed as Paizo says they plan to do for the Necromancer's final version. Reduce HP from 8 to 6. Light Armor training only. Instead of Arcane Cascade it could have a focused attention ability, perhaps setting up a one-sided duel with a single enemy to the detriment of lack of focus against secondary enemies, but you'd gain bonuses against the focused enemy. Just spitballing. Class features could be about satisfying a few gimmicks, poison use, packaging a few key traversal skill feats into one class feat, like the Barbarian does with intimidation feats, Feats that add remaining spells to the occult spell list to help specialize, feats that give bonuses to thrown weapons, quick draw, etc.

Basically, this class would be to the Magus as the rogue is to the fighter.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I always thought that the Warrior muse for the bard was supposed to be the skald replacement.

This is what I thought too.

There are two camps. People that like a caster chassis subclass and people that like a bounded caster chassis. Generally, said camps dont enjoy playing the gish version of the other camp.

I think there have been enough repeated vocal requests (clearly I am one said proponent) for this across the many years of pathfinder 2e that we can stop being "surprised" that people want this. This should be even less "surprising" for 3/4 BAB, 1/2 caster classes from PF1e like the bard, skald, mesmerist, etc.

You dont have to be in the bounded caster "camp" to understand or appreciate that clearly others find value in it and can accurately self identify that they would enjoy it more than the current available options.

So lets stop glossing over the community/customer demand. You can enjoy your warpriest and I can enjoy my Cleric+ armorclad doctrine and we can all exist together and not yuck each others yums.

I am more surprised they didnt just publish a generico caster class archetype that can convert any caster into a bounded caster version with some generic gishy feats. It wouldnt be as satisfying as class specific class archetypes, but it would be future proofed from the masses asking for a class by class bounded caster version. Then we could have a skald, shifter,warpriest, etc. With whatever caster feat list you like most.

I certainly won't mind the option. You've probably seen me fighting for us getting a ninja, so I can understand the want. And a more martial version of a bard with a diminished spell list seems appreciable, especially one that can cast spells while raging, so I do hope Paizo considers. It's not a camp I've got a personal stake in, but I can understand the appeal. I was just pointing out that I thought that that was the original intention of the Warrior muse. Cleric gave us both Warpriest Cleric and Battleharbinger Cleric, so there is precedent for a Warrior Bard and a... Not sure what a more agnostic term for skald would be, Warchanter Bard? Either way, there is probably room for both.

I still feel(and Hope) that Impossible will be an early 2026 release. Just based on how previous playtests corresponded to the release of the book.

And at GenCon they've always announced a new book with a playtest after the con.

Have we ever had a class book get published outside of Gencon release?

I always thought that the Warrior muse for the bard was supposed to be the skald replacement.

I cannot say I'm an expert in Buddhism, as I am not a Buddhist, but I have tried to do research into it in an attempt at making a wuxia themed character a few years back. What I say ahead will probably not be from a place of expertise, as it's referring to religious philosophy, and even in my attempts, the sources I found are often contradicting, as Buddhism is divided into so many split-offs such as chan buddhism, shinto buddhism, and so so many more.

There is a philosophy in place where while yes, mind, body, and soul are the three aspects, but the body is sharpened to keep the mind healthy, and the body needs to keep up with the mind's command.

Then there is the aspect of the soul. If I may get secular, there then lies the question of whether the soul is seperate from the mind, is a medium for the mind, is the home of the mind, or is the mind.

All I can say, is that some media does what it does. And for the sake of my point above, I'll treat mind and soul as a unit, and body as another:

Early Sakura has a weak body, but a powerful mind. Whatever the nature of her chakra, she can manipulate it through the fact her mind and soul are flexible and precise.

As for Naruto, no matter how many exercises he does, he will still struggle to walk on water when his spirit is out of wack. He has a strong body, and a rich source of spirit to work with, though his mind is often not the most precise. Naruto's usual arcs of growth are developing his faculties until he can use the next major thing. But most of these things are exercises in mental control over a difficult process. How does one will their soul into a vortex? What part of body condition controls the precise flow and and shaping of chakra? Wouldn't that be an aspect of mental exercise?

In the end, most of the epiphanies that lead to a jutsu breakthrough in Naruto, tend to be a mental one. An example is the book, Name of the Wind. A somewhat occultist take on magic by paizo standards. Int hat book, magic users have to do very difficult mental exercises to condition their mind for magic. One mental exercise used, for example, was splitting your mind into two people, having one partition hide an object in an imaginary room, while the other partition tried to search for it, while willing both halves of yourself to not communicate with one another. That's always been the sort of thing I imagined happening with Naruto. Mental exercises that mold willpower into manifestation. And that's what the description of Occultism jived with the most when I read its letter in Secrets of Magic.

To me, occultism is not otherness, it is not stories. To me, occultism is psionics. It is will manfiest, it is self molding of your own life force. To me A bard creates magic not by reciting a story, or singing a song, but by using the performance as a mnemonic to attune and exert their will. A psychic and a monk just use different kinds of mnemonics. The difference is in the ways that they focus their minds.

Occultism is not just connection with stories. Occultism, at least as it was explained in Secrets of Magic in Legacy, is a force of willpower to impose your will upon the universe. It is using your mind and mental control to exert magic. That is why monks have the choice to be occult casters when they take a focus spell, and why psychics are occult, because occultism can take the form of that psionic force where you channel your mana/ki/chi/qi/aether/chakra/etc into a physical manifestation. My only experience with ninja is frankly Naruto, but their chakra manipulation system would not be so different from this aspect of occultism.

But you are right, that arcane has a lot of aspects we'd want. I was considering summon animal for tracking animals like dogs and the like, so that makes sense. And while I don't think it's necessary to make an otherwise very functional ninja, getting some elemental attack spells from the arcane school would also be nice, as that would definitely fulfill some more Naruto specific fantasies for me.

There are two ways we can do that, which have been explored by Paizo, actually. The first is the Magaambyan Attendant's Halcyon casting, and the second is the Red Mantis Assassin.

The Red Mantis Assassin's approach was to give us Divine Casting, and then bring in arcane spells of choice via a spell curriculum.

Meanwhile the Magaambyan Attendant's Halcyon casting is a full combination of arcane and primal magic. And it's Halcyon spell tradition can choose from both freely.

And as a third point, the sorcerer, cleric, and a few other casters have means of implanting spells from other traditions into their respective traditions in limited quantities.

So these can be inspiration points from which to drop in arcane spells into occultism, or vice versa. I'd personally lean occult because occult will give more of that ki/qi/chakra-use feeling that the monk already invokes, and it's spell list is better attuned to intrigue, giving the majority of the core aspects of being a ninja on its own, but from there, arcane spells that are missing can be added to the list as exceptions. Perhaps something akin to wizard spell curriculums to grant bonus spells to reflect different ninja themes? That's how the Red Mantis Assassin implaneted its arcane spells into the divine tradition in the first place. Perhaps there can be a curriculum for beastmastery, one for each element, etc. Or perhaps a full combination of the schools is possible, though I get the feeling that'd be a disproportionate proportion of the power budget.

Plus Burglar's Blind would be the perfect ninja spell, but it is occultism only.

I mean, we're not getting a ninja class anyway. We're getting a Guardian class, we're getting a Commander class, we're getting a Necromancer class, and we're getting a Runesmith class, and there's probably classes after that (not to mention all of the SF2 classes that you could import.)

Always room. Sure, the next two years are booked, but the years after that? In addition, one of the fun things about a class that enables ninja stuff is ninja appear in both olden times fantasy, as well as modern fantasy, and scifi so there is room for Starfinder to do it, too, once they catch up to their missing classes.\

It's important for us to voice what interests us so that it can be a consideration point when the time comes to select the next two classes for Pathfinder. I mean, if there are classes a larger proportion of community as a whole would rather have, of course, do them first. But there is always the year after.

And the way I see it. We have an arcane gish (Magus), and a divine gish (Battle Harbinger Cleric). There is still room for an Occult gish and a Primal gish. A class that can enable the faculties of a ninja, while being more culturally agnostic, can certainly fill the role of the Occult gish. (And not to get too off-topic, but the return of the old shifter can probably tie into the Primal gish). The class itself does not need to be a ninja. But what we want is a class that can easily be a ninja without hiccups. If Paizo could figure out how to give us a jedi in the form of a Solarion, they can probably figure out something that is not specifically a ninja, but can very much be a ninja. If the hangup is that it cannot be too reliant on a culture, then I think the talented writers at Paizo have more than enough capability to make a creative solution that both does the job, and stands on its own.

As an example, let's look to the Starfinder team, they just did an AMA while playing Warframe, the game about biomechanical space ninja surrogates. Warframes do not call themselves ninja, they call themselves Warframes (well, they call themselves other things sometimes, but spoilers), but they move, sneak, ambush, and do a lot of ninja stuff on top of their own brand of cool seemingly magical powers. They also use guns, gun ninja is actually a pretty popular scifi ninja trope, to show that a class that lets you be a ninja does not have to be only katanas and kunai. Paizo I trust is more than capable of making something that can be a ninja, and can be a ninja well, but is its own thing, that expands upon the capabilities of a ninja beyond its trappings of origin, as many other creators have done already.

moosher12 wrote:

I wonder how much extra martial capability you could balance in if you used a 2 spell slot per rank arrangement like the psychic (though with normal cantrips). The warpriest is a 3 spell slot per rank allotment, after all. Another potential balance point is making them a glass cannon, and using a 6 HP scale instead of an 8 HP scale. Making them squishy as such could also incentivize adjusting their kit to encourage playing to enemy weaknesses, staying stealthy, and using their ninjutsu to get close and get away.

Cutting to 2 spells per level is probably a good idea, but it also leaves the ninja behind the regular magus in spell slots until 5th level which is awkward. Not sure what to do about that. Cutting HP is definitely another lever that can be pulled, and is smoother.

Actually 2 spell slots per rank would be equivalent to a Magus from levels 1-4, and would exceed a magus from level 5 onward.

Both a magus and the psychic have 1 spell slot at level 1, 2 spell slots at level 2, 3 at level 3, and 4 at level 4. The magus however stays at a static 4, while from level 5 on, the psychic starts to gain more spell slots. There is technically the studious spells bonus slots, but that won't be enough to pull a magus ahead.

I wonder how much extra martial capability you could balance in if you used a 2 spell slot per rank arrangement like the psychic (though with normal cantrips). The warpriest is a 3 spell slot per rank allotment, after all. Another potential balance point is making them a glass cannon, and using a 6 HP scale instead of an 8 HP scale. Making them squishy as such could also incentivize adjusting their kit to encourage playing to enemy weaknesses, staying stealthy, and using their ninjutsu to get close and get away.

I do like your approach, Ryangwy.

At this point, you are making a class archetype for the magus, though, and that's a good thing.

Because a class archetype can grant benefits from level 1, you can grant the monk trait to weapons at that point. Then you can grant the thrown weapon range increase during the dedication feat at level 2.

Additionally, there are opportunities to generalize the theme culturally. It does not need to be Japanese swords only. And in addition to the weapons you listed, I'd like to suggest the shortsword and possibly the rapier. Following that, in addition to daggers and throwing knives, I'd recommend the corset knife. But ultimately, it might be a to find an acceptable rule for a blanket list of weapons by qualities, rather than listing specific weapons, such as perhaps Agile or Finesse trait with 1d6 base damage dice or less, for example. (On the Agile side, weapons like the Sap, Dart, and Blowgun might be thematic, while on the Finesse side are various permutations of knives, the shortsword, the rapier, and the wakizashi lie. Perhaps a ninja does not need a full sized katana anyway, that would probably skew slightly more samurai coded for the fighter anyway. Though it can always be added as an exception if really needed. Either way, using a generalized trait set will reduce the amount of specific exceptions that have to be added, while letting a lot of loosely related weapons fall under the umbrella for the purpose of future books)

From there, other feats would start to kick in at level 4, such as for Magical Surprise, Spellstriker, and a smattering of other thematic feats.

That too, there are so many ways to justify an individual being infused with demigod-like power. I run a Kingmaker game that begins in 4711, I have an exemplar awakened corgi among my players. Our justification was that an Eldest bestowed upon them the power.

I'd use the approach of a personal blessing from a god, like in the event of Wrath of the Righteous. Think of it as a deluxe level Champion or Oracle. You can also probably call it a freak over-injection of otherworldly energies in what would be a geniekin or a nephilim, such that your lineage is tied to a particularly potent entity.

moosher12 wrote:

Bluemagetim wrote:

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.

I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

Except it's not doing exactly what other classes do, because other classes cannot even do it good. It's okay for there to be ven diagrams of strategic and tactical overlap. If the best one can say is "You can kind of be a ninja with all these concessions with this class," that's not "what other classes already do." That's "what other classes can partially do"

what you are describing sounds more like it would be best done with archtype that can be taken by any class to take on the ninja like skills and abilities.

One that prereqs stealth acrobatics and athletics probably. Allows you to make one of them expert at dedication.
Might also need to preq +2 str and Dex cause no matter the class you start as a ninja has to be athletic and stealthy.
Adds proficiency with some specific weapons make this a regional archtype and specific weapons becomes kind of sensible for the archtype (yes probably wasted on martials but thats the usual.) The weapons then are also a feature of the region in Golarian the archtype is from and not reality.
because its an archtype it can focus solely on the things you think make a ninja a ninja and leave the combat bent to the class you chose as your chassis (combat expressions vary quite a bit in existing tropes). That way you can make a laughing shadow magus to fight the way you want but the ninja archtype to be better at stealth and maybe add some ninja specific focus spells and feats. Some of the feats can focus on tracking, some on advanced focus spells, some on alchemist items like smokebombs. Be the ninja you want to be at the cost of class feats.
But this way anyone can pick the level of magic to martial they want by choosing their class and still be a ninja. And more importantly its balanced because...

An archetype would not be bad, though it'd definitely need to be at least a 2-page archetype.

We do already have a ninja-like archetype, that even has ninjutsu, but it's problematic. That's the Red Mantis Assassin. It has too much Lost Omens clout, it's too religiously coded, and it's too evil-coded. Sure, it has the assassin aspect, and it has the magic. But you cannot actually use it in a lost omens game without a GM going in and removing its requirements. If you want to be a ninja that does not worship a deity, and works off of cultivation like a monk, the Red Mantis Assassin isn't for you. If you want to be a ninja that fights for good, like how the Inquisitor is now the Vindicator, then the Red Mantis Assassin isn't for you. You'd have to change its proficiency with sawtooth sabers to something else, and all support for them to something else to keep equivalent strength, and you'd have to swap deity anathema-moderated spellcasting for another type of spellcasting, as removing the religious anathema is a balancing point for being able to choose from any divine spell, even if it might not seem like a huge balance point. So this is not only a point of deliberation for the home table that would cause a high degree of table variance, but simply an impossibility in a sanctioned game such as in Pathfinder Society. Which means we'd need a dedicated ninja that is both lore agnostic, religiously agnostic (and as a tie in, morally agnostic). A 2-page archetype could work, sure. Though I do question of 2 pages can do everything it wants to do. It could also reasonably be a 1-2 page expansion on the assassin archetype if it had to be an archetype.

I think it would be a waste to make a new class and just have it do exactly what other classes already do.

I think a new class would need a distinct mechanic not a conglomeration of rogue ranger and wisdom caster.

Except it's not doing exactly what other classes do, because other classes cannot even do it good. It's okay for there to be ven diagrams of strategic and tactical overlap. If the best one can say is "You can kind of be a ninja with all these concessions with this class," that's not "what other classes already do." That's "what other classes can partially do"

The other thing about "ambush" as a mechanic is that Pathfinder is structurally not a game where it's generally possible to take down a credible opponent in a single attack or even a single round. Combat is supposed to have some back and forth in it. Like the Assassin archetype tops out on a 6d6 precision, and fort save where you die if you crit fail at level 12, and that takes five actions to pull off. I've never seen anyone even try to make this character.

When I say Ambush, I refer to Sneak Attack, Aim, and Hunt Prey. I consider those ambush abilities. A mild advantage for focused attention on a vulnerable target, not a quick finisher.

Ranger would actually be the closest if it was not for its lack of urban support. Ranger really needs favored terrain: urban, and favored enemy: humanoid.

Laughing Shadow is almost there, but it is lacking in many places.
-Sure, it can get in and out of places. But it lacks the tracking aspects you'd want for the bounty hunter role, because you also need to spec survival and perception (a ninja would likely want Legendary Reflex/Perception at the end).
-Because Magus is an Int caster, you'd also be dividing your necessary skills between Dexterity, Intelligence, and Wisdom to do the job. A ninja certainly would need to be a wisdom caster. The magus gets enough flak for needing 2 attributes to do its base expectations, introducing the need for a 3rd to get the flavor is quite the ask.
-Then, you have to deal with the problem of Magus being a bounded caster and having a hyper-limited spell slot allocation. Red Mantis Assassin is laughing all the way to the bank in the fact they simply have more versatility than a magus ever will on a given day. If anything, I'd probably propose a Psychic spell allotment for a ninja using 5 cantrips, if not a bard spell allotment.
-Lastly, magus can hit hard in general, yes, but it simply does not give the flavor of an ambush. It can do the same thing whether it is surrounded or alone. There is no reward for a magus tailing a specific target who is vulnerable beyond the baseline. It needs some Investigator/Operative/Rogue/Ranger/Slayer style advantage for a marked prey.

I'll give an answer then.

A ninja is a magical ambush martial that maintains a healthy balance between spell utility and martial prowess, toward the goal of tracking and incapacitating humanoid opponents. A ninja blends magic with tool use to infiltrate and exfiltrate areas, and track and ambush targets of interest with the aid of utility spells.

I want to play a character that can track someone through the wilderness like a ranger, or track someone through a city like an investigator, then dampen your sound and go invisible on the approach like a bard, ambush the target and get a few bonuses like how either the rogue or the ranger gets, all while doing cool things like using magic set pieces to cloak the area in darkness or mist, putting surrounding peoples to sleep, summoning mirror images for a prolonged fight, distracting the prey with an illusory creature, etc.

The red mantis school shows just a few of many spells that would be well applicable to these purposes. Red Mantis is already pretty much there, it just has all of the in-world clout of requiring you to be a worshipper of achaekek, which, frankly you do not need to be a mystical assassin like a ninja. I definitely don't think the Red Mantis Assassins should be the only ones allowed to have ninjutsu, because the Red Mantis Assassins basically have ninjutsu. As the Red Mantis Assassin added select arcane spells to the divine school, I'd think it prudent to instead add select arcane spells to the occult school, or vice versa.
cantrips: figment, gouging claw
1st: fleet step, illusory disguise, sure strike
2nd: invisibility, mist
3rd: clairaudience, paralyze
4th: clairvoyance, translocate
5th: hallucination, illusory scene
6th: mislead, phantasmal calamity
7th: duplicate foe, project image
8th: disappearance, unrelenting observation
9th: phantasmagoria

Treasure Vault Remastered Edition pg. 20
For the Shield's Inscribed trait, the last sentence should instead direct to page 8, instead of page 219, because the Index will just direct to page 8 anyway in the Remastered version.

I don't think focus spells will be sufficient to fulfill the fantasy. Being able to do only one thing, even if it's once per 10 minutes, is gonna leave you wanting. Part of the fantasy of being a mystic ninja is having a decent repertoire of jutsu, and at one focus spell per feat, you'd run out of feats very quick before getting a fraction of what you'd want, especially as it's competing with your other ninja/slayer feats.

But more importantly, a lot of the jutsu you'd want already exist as arcane spells. I'd rather spend 3 feats to get 2 cantrips and 8 spells than I would to spend 10 feats to get 10 focus spells that I can only use 3 of at a time.

We already have the Bloodrager to show us we don't need to use only focus spells on martials. If a 12 HP tank can have 8 spells and 2 cantrips, I don't think it's out of line for the Slayer (If anything, I kind of wish Paizo would have considered that for the Champion and Ranger now that the Bloodrager got it for the former 1E Level 4 casters)

What did you think of my positioning-based hybrid of sneak attack and finishing blow as the basis for a mobile, flashy attacker that relies on set-up to dispatch foes they can't stand toe to toe with? I'd be aiming for a mechanic that goes from, "You idiot, I placed that trap there 12 seconds ago knowing you'd step on it. Now die!" to "Phew, if he'd stepped 5 feet to the side I'd be dead right now!" in the same package.

I'd be wary of too many conditionals, as it would take up a lot of page space to cover a broad range of conditions, and you'd likely run into a lot of situations where enemies just don't play along. It's essentially the Aikido problem.

But the idea itself is not bad from a flavor point, and I think you're onto something. Outsmarting prey and leading them into a trap. I'd probably suggest letting the Slayer modify the Feint action to do things other than make an opponent off guard. Say if you succeeded at feinting, you'd instead make them move 5 feet into a conveniently placed misc trap that does your choice of piercing or slashing damage, where higher tiers might instead make the trap do acid, fire, or other elemental damages. It gives you the idea of giving the appearance of a set-up, while not actually needing to plan very far ahead.

Is a top-down anime-inspired design the best way to ensure this class finds its audience? Do we want to pigeonhole the Ninja as the weeb class?

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I just think it might make more sense to find their one unique thing and build from that and then dress it like a Ninja once the core works.

You are right, we want something more general, and a hook. That is the question. Lets take a look at its contenders

I'd say that if there is one thing this class can do, it's that it can trade off things the others don't need. From the rogue, it'd want the connection to the criminal underworld, the use of underhanded tactics like poisoncraft, but it does not need to be a dilettante, it does not need all of the rogue's class feats and trainings, nor does it need to be a face. So it does not need the generalized reaction of a sneak attack, nor the defense against being ambushed that a rogue has with its Deny Advantage ability. From the ranger, it would want an ability to mark a target, preferably from the beginning of a mission, and have benefits to tracking the target down, lying to the target, and general combat advantages against the target.

My suggestion from the other thread is to call it a slayer, and to try to combine the old slayer and ninja into one class, like how the Animist combined the Medium and the Shaman, and the Summoner combined the Spiritualist and the Summoner.

The slayer existed as a class whose focus was to essentially be an assassin. So it can have a "Mark Bounty" or some other sort of single action mark, that gives you a bonus to checks that get you closer to the target (Deception, Perception, Society, Survival, etc). If an Operator can ignore cover, and a ranger can get a bonus to AC against the target being defensive, then perhaps a slayer can be more offensive, and get a +1 bonus to attack and spell attack rolls against the target, like the 1E one did? We'll say it won't do precision, but it'll just have that easier time getting hits in due to their offensive focus. Essentially, what if it's a trained martial that's halfway to an expert martial against one designated target?

In regards to an attack booster, my first thought would be that a ninja probably does not need a sneak attack. A rogue is reactionary and opportunistic, a ninja on the other hand probably would lead toward an assassination of a high value target, which would take the form of an ambush, or if we wanted to get shounen with things, a duel. As such, I'd probably sooner inspire from the Assassin's Mark for Death, the Operative's Aim, and the Ranger's Hunt Prey abilities, but more particularly, the 1E Slayer's Studied Target ability, to let the ninja focus on a single target, rather than being able to react to every off-guard opportunity.

As for spellcasting, a ninja would probably be a squishy martial like a rogue would be. It is an option to give it focus spells, but I think a ninja wants to do too much for focus spells to satisfy. On the other hand, a ninja does not need so many spells that it needs a full 3-slot allotment. And lastly, not everyone wants to be a ninja that casts spells, so while a magi's spell slot is an option, I would not recommend it for a ninja. I'd suggest following after both the Ranger and the Bloodrager Barbarian, where you can choose to opt into magic with feat choice. As such, I'd propose granting it the ability to choose a Basic Ninjutsu feat at level 1, which grants 2 cantrips and basic spellcasting benefits, an Expert Ninjutsu feat at level 12, which grants expert spellcasting benefits, and a master ninjutsu feat at level 18, which grants master spellcasting benefits. The spellslot allocation of archetype spellcasting will give a ninja a lot of ammunition to play with various kinds of magic within an encounter, but not so much that they can just use ninjutsu willy nilly. Arcane I think is probably one of the better choices for an arcane school, as it gives a wide variety of both stealth and flashy abilities, though it does leave out healing. Occultism is an option that enables healing, but it lacks the flashiness that a Naruto fantasy might invoke. This would not be an archetype or a class archetype though, these feats would just be baked into the class as an option.

Part of me thinks that spontaneous casting would get a good amount of flexibility, but prepared casting with an internal learned spell list like the upcoming Necromancer has a certain appeal as well.

I'd think a ninja would prioritize Dexterity and Wisdom for being nimble, as well as for tracking. So I'd suggest making their spellcasting attribute Wisdom.

Treasure Vault pg. 19
Wolfjaw Armor has a mild mistake where it still has two mentions of the winter wolf: one in the last sentence of the first paragraph, and one in the Craft Requirements, which also still references the Bestiary.

Treasure Vault pg. 15
The Immortal Bastion armor refers to an armor's deflect melee trait, when it should refer to the entrench melee trait.