jotheman07's page

Usually the hidden resistance finds the players and recruit them when they are escaping from a too dangerous situation or when they are trying to do everything alone. You can do this when do you think it's enough for them to face their daily difficult or when they begin to claim too much attention.

Ah ya, I like that, even if they were to just come across a small group of scavengers who have some rudimentary base, it could give them some hope, and get them into the mindset of, "we should be trying to establish some kind of infrastructure".

The lack of a marketplace (because why would the aliens want powerful items available to humans?) will be a hurdle so you might want to introduce a mechanic (perhaps one uncovered by a PC quest) where the PCs can power up their gear to match their inner strength (akin to automatic bonus progression rules). The advice for implementing ABP can also be useful for PCs having less access to magic & consumables.

Originally, I assumed it would be a bit akin to Kingmaker, where they would purchase from marketplaces that they built in their hideout, created by blacksmiths and artificers they saved, but using ABP could lend itself very well to a temple hideout. Perhaps it becomes Warhammer End Times-esk, where the adventurers are supported by their gods, who provide them with equipment and limited assistance.

Not sure how you'd end a campaign like that without a major plot macguffin since it's not like there should be enough rebels to make a difference if the standing armies failed AND the enemy has entrenched themselves

Ya, this is my main concern, it may depend on how the adventure evolves, but right now I was thinking about pulling an Ender's Game, since the creatures came from another continent, perhaps in a final epic adventure, they could have to fight through waves of the fungoids (because that's what they are, a parasitic fungus that completely transforms the victim) to activate some ancient magic device that would destroy the queen remotely. I have always wanted to send players to the moon, so perhaps there is a magical death laser on the moon that they could use to kill the hive mind?

Heh, sounds pretty Nu-XCOM 2 to me. ;)

Ha! As an avid XCOM fan myself, I can't believe I didn't think about the connection, but your totally right, the canon ending to XCOM 1 was the first half of the campaign, and this second half is XCOM 2.

Thanks all! Definitely some great ideas all around! Pretty pumped now to get some ideas on paper.

Almost always (if not ever) bad to use TPK to progress the plot. Because:

- If the players knows that the game will have an obligatory bad ending they will have little reason to take the game seriously.
- If the players don't know they can be upset with the game because they usually wasted time and have created affection for their characters. As a player I never like when happen a TPK, especially if this was programed by GM or scenario.

The best option IMO is follow in the first part end the game with they winning or losing normally as any other adventure. If they loose, and you not forced this, they probably will understand when you continue to post-apocalyptic part. But if they win, just continue the story explain that even with that victory this wasn't sufficient to change the tides of invasion and you can explain that their chars disappear during the process (or even has been killed after some time after their final battle) and now they will start with new characters or you can allow them live and join to some resistance in the post-apocalyptic part.

I must not have explained myself clearly.

1. The old party already died
2. They had no affection for their characters, in fact some actively disliked their character
3. The first half of the campaign was just a chance for the players to experiment with the game, and get a better grasp of the mechanics. This second part is the "true campaign". Now players know what they are doing, have created characters they enjoy, and know the events that led up to the world being taken over (without some lengthy introduction or backstory which these new players would likely find overwhelming and tiring).

I'm not really looking for input on the TPK, because I know the stigma behind it, and it already happened, I was more reaching out for any interesting stories, tropes, or tips from players or DM's who have relevant experience.

A bit of background:
I had been running a campaign for a group of relatively new players for about a year, and they had gotten to that point that I think most players reach at some point, where they would much rather make a new character with the knowledge they had gained. I could especially tell during combat, that my players weren't all that happy with their characters. So, I did the only natural thing, and orchestrated a TPK.

I know, I know, that's nearly always a terrible idea, but it was more of a mercy this time, and I didn't want to just do any old TPK, so instead for about a month the campaign shifted to "an alien race from an undiscovered far away continent is about to invade, we gotta prepare". It was slightly better executed than that, but for the sake of brevity, there ended up being a huge D-day style amphibian attack, and humanity (by humanity I mean typical PC races) lose the battle.

And thus, the second half of the campaign is Post-Cataclysm. The new characters find themselves about a month after the invasion, and the world as they know it is largely controlled by the "aliens" (I don't actually call them aliens, but the image works...) The "aliens" are more like parasites, they cant reproduce without using a body as a base. On their home continent they had a densely packed breeding center, but disease killed off their "cattle", so they were desperate to find a new source of bodies, and are utilizing humanity's infrastructure, by enslaving small villages and towns, and giving them limited autonomy in exchange for 2/3 of their children. All large cities and capitals have been completely leveled.

We've only had one session (a prison break), and the PC's are just trying to avoid the huge goliaths they see roaming the horizons so far.

TLDR: Alien invasion, humanity is largely crushed, and the PC's are roaming through a lost world, but hopefully, one day, they can work to rebuild society.

I'm having trouble finding inspiration at this point however, I'd like them to discover some hidden group of resistance, but I don't want to do it right away, and I'd like to really build up the tension, I want them to go through a difficult time as scavengers, where everyday is a struggle to survive, before they get to the point where they are storming citadel's and saving the world.

Do any players have any epic stories about revolutions, post-apocalyptic campaigns, or just gritty campaigns? And do any DMs have stories or tips on how to develop this idea? I was thinking about using symbols similar to hobo signs in order to hint at the underground survivors, but I hit a bit of DM's block at this point.

Thanks!

Cliffscale has neat utility, but I fail to see how it's more useful for a stealth character.

*Shrug* To me, the question of how I use stealth is always "how can I get to places I shouldn't be, and how can I use it to prepare for combat". As you already noted, the second question is pretty straight forward, it can get me off the ground, so I don't have to worry about pesky melee, and it puts me in a good position to snipe someone in a surprise round. Obviously it isn't going to help when I'm indoors fighting a caster, but at that point, stealth is not really viable. As to the first question, well... its kinda like you said yourself, "that +2 you're trading away could cause you to fail on being stealthy at all". Climbing has always been closely tied to stealth for me, be it pulling off a heist, or infiltrating a castle wall, climbing is just something I always do when sneaky. But, it's also (in my experience) the part of a stealthy plan that can lead to a downward spiral, because if I'm caught climbing, I'm usually screwed, because now I'm stuck on this wall, with no quick way to flee or deal with my witness. But now suddenly, I can climb wherever I want without fear, because I could potentially just use a magic item or cast a spell to get out an uncomfortable situation. Personally, I'd rather have a plan in place that will save me if I am caught, than just adding 5 percent to my chance to not be caught. But, I guess part of it just might be how I am as a player, because I very rarely find myself in situations where I'm just stealthily walking around, I always try to get somewhere no one will find me and then work from there, that way I only have to really worry about stealth once, and it nearly always involves climbing.

(which should actually be everywhere that has a consistent coloration you've spent more than an hour in)

Ah, I wasn't sure how people would rule that part. My first impression was that you had to chose the color at character creation and then stick with it (while the gnome one sounded more forgiving). I guess what disappointed me was that 2e feels very much like a new system, where the customization has an impact on how a character plays, and what kinds of actions they take in combat, but certain abilities like that one feel very 1e, taking something really interesting lore wise and boiling it down to a numerical buff.

I think I'll probably figure out some homebrew of that trait for my players, maybe something that has to do with standing without armor adjacent to a wall or large object. Because to me it doesn't seem like having mimetic skin would help if you were standing out the open (and definitely not if your wearing armor), but if you were standing flush with a wall... idk just a thought

Oh, also, another random question. Does anyone know what the corkscrews are that appear to be on the backs of the alchemist and druid iconics? When I saw it on the alchemist, I assumed it was a cannon worm (or something similar) but then there seems to be something similar on the back of the druid, and if it was a cannon worm that would make no sense. Are they something else entirely, or are the two slightly similar objects just two different things and I'm overthinking it?

So... I've just read through pretty much all of the rulebooks (not cover to cover, but got a solid grasp of them), and I noticed two things that no one had really brought up, but I wondered if anyone else had been experiencing.

1. It seems like (especially in the ancestries) that a lot of the options look objectively worse...? I totally agree that there aren't many things that read as "Dang that is ridiculously good" but I kept turning things up options where the concept of the bonus seemed really exciting, but the actual results seemed like a let down. One that stood out to me was the Unseen Lizardfolk, I got super pumped when I saw we could have literal chameleons, but then just having +2 stealth... and flavor text that seems to limit this ability further? Is it just me or is that pretty weak? Especially when the Cliff ancestry right next to it seems to have way better utility for ranged stealth characters (martial and caster alike). My initial reaction to the idea of ancestries was that it would make building a character much more personal, but now I'm feeling like some of the choices are just no brainers, tailored for certain builds... and others I can't picture myself ever picking, is this just me?

2. Another vibe I got (and again, this might just be me), was that it kinda felt like they over compensated for limiting feat options and not having the traditional multiclassing. What I mean is, for the first few levels, it seems like there are already too many mechanics for getting feats off of lists you wouldn't traditionally have access to (like other ancestry feats through adopted). It seems like a bit much to me, (even though I am aware that many of these "cross-list" options lose value beyond the first few levels), because having the ability to pick feats from wherever makes your character choices feel a lot less important in the short run. Was this also a vibe that only I am getting?

But I did make a "bucket list" of scenarios that I want to play, and my interest will probably drop off significantly when I finish that list.

That's brilliant, I am definitely stealing that idea and doing it myself ;)

I think you have little to worry about.

Oh ya, I was definitely misguided in my worries.

Combat in 2nd Edition is awesome.

Sounds like it! Honestly what gets me the most pumped is that I know my players will love it!

jotheman07 wrote:

Any DM's running exclusively 2e right now? If so, anything I should be aware of should I start switching over?

Enjoy the foes you'll be throwing at your party. Each creature has some cool ability, so read up on them and have some fun surprising your players!

He he, perfect. The bestiaries are the only books I haven't had a chance to glance at yet, but man, I love me some spicy monsters.

Here is a link I've shared with players who are switching from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition:

What are the major changes between Pathfinder first and second editions?

Oh nice, that's a great resource, thanks!

jotheman07 wrote:

Nice, well good to know its in such a good place. Sounds like second edition is definitely a perfect fit for me, so I'll probably have to switch over for my next adventure!

Glad to hear!

Might you add, however, what in your OP you referred to as "rubbing you the wrong way" from early impressions you got of PF2?

I was ambivalent toward the PF2 playtest, and I gave it a try with some of my players, too. Some things were clunky (resonance), or frustrating (lack of mundane healing). But significant changes were made before the final product was put out. And I my first impression reading through the Core Rulebook was "Wow, I like this!"

When I first found out about Second Edition, it was during the first release of the playtest. It seemed (And I'm sure this was due to a combination of marketing and my own overreaction) to be built as "simpler" than 1e. For me, the main thing that made me prefer Pathfinder over DnD was the depth of the customization (especially the ludicrous amount of archetypes for each class), and I was worried that 2e would feel "dumbed down".

Recently, I figured I ought to give it another chance. I had stumbled onto the fact that Ancestry was something in the core rulebook (which I loved), and I just introduced a few new players to my group. It reminded me how difficult it can be for beginners (thus I began to look at the new action economy in a better light, and now it's one of my favorite features of the new system).

If I recall correctly, there were a few other small inconsequential things that I wasn't a huge fan of, but they were all based on rather ignorant preliminary observations.

TwilightKnight wrote:

What does fully fleshed out mean? They’ve published more than a half dozen hard cover books, three complete adventure paths, and a number of supporting material so it seems fairly substantial. If you mean volume of content like 1E, it’s really not fair to compare a system that’s been out for a year and a half vs one that’s been out for more than a decade.

It is a fair comparison when you are doing the comparing in order to answer a specific question: do we switch now or wait a couple more years? No one expects all the options the full PF1 game had at its close, but "are there enough options now to satisfy my table?" is a reasonable thing to wonder. That point where wait becomes don't wait is going to be different for every table.

Yes! This exactly sums up how I was feeling, I've run a few different systems, but this is the first time I've moved from one edition to the next, and Pathfinder was my introduction to the world of RPGs, so that added a layer of nostalgia to my dilemma.

But people have provided me with a ton of useful information! Thanks everyone for taking out the time to help, you have assuaged any fear I had with switching over!

Nice, well good to know its in such a good place. Sounds like second edition is definitely a perfect fit for me, so I'll probably have to switch over for my next adventure!

I'd say that the single biggest thing is that there's less room for min-maxing. Other than maxing your primary stat and, for martials, having a proper magic weapon, there's not all that much you can do with most classes to get better at their thing. Your feats are more about building other things up to that ceiling, and/or giving you various efficiencies and synergies.

For example, a 7th level ranger with maxed attack stat will have an attack bonus of +16 (+7 level, +4 expert, +4 Str/Dex, +1 item). They might be worse than that, but certainly not better. The ranger's abilities instead let them do things like get free checks to Recall Knowledge, hit harder or have a lower multiple action penalty, get an animal companion, shoot farther, or things like that.

Or to take an example from the other end of the martial/caster divide, let's look at a wizard. A wizard will be Bad at fighting. They have a very small pool of weapons in which they are proficient, and they stay at Trained proficiency up until 11th level, at which point they become Experts. If a wizard takes a feat that gives them expanded weapon capability, they will be able to fight with things like bows and swords instead of slings and daggers, but nothing is going to make them better at actually hitting things.

In PF1, it was fairly easy to pick feats and other things that made you a lot stronger than a level X character was supposed to be, to the point where an EL X fight, which was supposed to be a decent workout, instead just became a speed bump. In PF2, a moderate encounter is something you will probably win, but you have to work at it a little. And a Severe encounter will actually imperil characters, and an Extreme might actually kill them. It also means that you make more important choices at the actual table than you do in preparation.

Ah, that's interesting, thanks. That's exactly the kind of thing I was wondering, glad to see this system is becoming harder to manipulate. But, do you think that it's becoming harder to min max because there is simply less content to exploit? Or because of a core change to how building up a character is approached?

Paizo is not planning to make book equivalent of PF1 books and even if you like certain PF1 class they might be totally different than they were before, like Swashbuckler, Ranger and Paladin.

Secrets of Magic will be the first of their kind on PF2, having Lore + Player options + GM facing stuff and rules.

Paizo usually gives what will be released in the next year at Paizocon and Gencon.

Well true, I fully anticipate them facing changes, in fact, I would be hopeful for a pretty large overhaul for both of the classes, because it was the flavor of the class that I enjoy most, not necessarily the execution.

Might just be me, but that sounds alot like Ultimate Magic ;). But either way, I should have phrased my question better, what I meant was:

"has Paizo announced any books that adds more depth to the martial side of the RPG, adding content like SoM did for casters. Much in the same way that Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat worked together in Pathfinder 1e".

I didn't mean to make it seem like the books would be the same.

However, based on the final part of your post, it seems they haven't.

Seems like Secrets of Magic is the 2e equivalent of Ultimate Magic, do they have planned dates for an "Ultimate Combat" style book? Or are they only releasing information one book at a time?

jotheman07 wrote:

Oh great thanks! I'll probably start reading now, but won't jump into it yet then, especially because Magus and Summoner are two of my favorite classes! Any DM's running exclusively 2e right now? If so, anything I should be aware of should I start switching over?

There are more differences between the edition than I can list. Besides this forum, have you tried the discord and r/pathfinder2e subreddit?

Ah that explains it, I didn't realize their was a separate Reddit page for second edition, will head over there now and do some reading

RPGnoremac wrote:

Only tip I can give is try your best to separate your Pathfinder 1 knowledge from Pathfinder 2. I know it is tough since they use same words but have completely different effects.

Overall I feel there is a lot of content as a player, looks like someone else went more into detail what is released. With the current books there are a lot of options imo. Mechanically and thematically you can make such versatile characters.

I am pretty sure I could play it 7 games a week and not run out of ideas for characters, also there are lots of variant rules to spice up gameplay.

Also I wanted to mention that the beginner box just came out and pretty much everyone has nothing but good things to say about it. I haven't quite pulled the trigger on buying it yet since we started, but really probably by it for when I introduce other players to the game.

My table tends to do 4 different campaigns at a time[alternating weekends of play Saturday and Sunday], and I still have a backlog of characters that I want to play and need more campaigns for!

Of course, I had the same problem in PF1, so nothing has changed for me.

I've found combat goes significantly faster, and there's less of a disparity between people that put thought into their feat choices and people that just pick what looks fun or funny. Everyone is equally useful to the party, in my experience.

I have the same issue :)

I see, one of the biggest pros for 2e to me was the overall simplification of action economy, because that was always an issue with new players, and made it harder for people to plan their turns between rounds. Glad this has worked in making combat faster.

I see what you mean, looking at these feats it seems like the new feat system seems to prioritize giving your character new things to do, rather than just making what they already do better, which I love.

Oh great thanks! I'll probably start reading now, but won't jump into it yet then, especially because Magus and Summoner are two of my favorite classes! Any DM's running exclusively 2e right now? If so, anything I should be aware of should I start switching over?

I should clarify, in the final phrase, *if* might have been a better word choice than *should*

Henro wrote:

Major Rulebooks;

-Core Rule Book
-Advanced Player's Guide
-Gamemastery Guide
-Bestiary 1&2

These three form the core of the current game and I would say they offer a pretty sizable amount of content between them, and are all worth reading. The upcoming rulebook is Secrets of Magic (spring release) which will be heavily magic-focused with the Magus and Summoner classes. All of the rules featured in these books are officially available on Archives of Nethys for free.

For minor rules material, there is the Lost Omens line of books. These half setting pieces, half rulebooks for certain more niche aspects. For example, the Lost Omens Character Guide had a few playable ancestries and expanded on ancestries already in the game. These would also be good jumping-off points for homebrew adventures.

For adventure paths you have 3 so far;
-Age of Ashes [6/6]
-Extinction Curse [6/6]
-Agents of Edgewatch [5/6]

For standalone adventures there's;
-The Fall of Plaguestone
-Little Big Trouble in Absalom
-The Slithering
-A lot of one-shot Pathfinder Society scenarios

Adding to this book 6 of Agents of Edgewatch is actually out - I got it in the mail two days ago. Additionally, there's another adventure Troubles in Otari (Lvl 4+) that expands off of the adventure included in the beginner box. Received that two days ago as well.

Oh great thanks! I'll probably start reading now, but won't jump into it yet then, especially because Magus and Summoner are two of my favorite classes! Any DM's running exclusively 2e right now? If so, anything I should be aware of should I start switching over?

Tl;dr Second Edition seems fun, but it seems a little early for me to change completely, how completed is it, and how much content is there?

I've been closely following Pathfinder for a long time, and it's always been my go to system as a DM. I remember when Second Edition was first announced, some of the mechanic changes rubbed me the wrong way and I put it on the backburner. But now, I've come to look at it more objectively, and I have decided that I would be interested in switching systems.

However, My biggest worry is that it is so new that it won't be fully fleshed out yet. I have searched other forums, but haven't really seen anyone comment on how much content is available for Second Edition, so I figured I would pose my question here.

Have most people fully converted to the new system? Are there a decent amount of (or any) adventures written for the system (even if it's just for inspiration or encounters). How many major rulebooks have been put out, and which are the most worth reading. And just generally, how have peoples' experience with the system been.

I don't mean to ask so much, but I'm very curious about how Second Edition is going, so any little tidbit of information is appreciated!

Thanks for the feat advice! Though I’m still curious about how to improve the characters magic crafting abilities. I’ve found the feat shaping focus which would allow me to put at least four levels in a second class without sacrificing any Wild Shape. I looked into the forge master cleric as a multi class, but it seems to be built for armor and weapons, I’m more interested in wondrous items. Are their any 1 to 6 level class dips that I could take to boost this? Also is Mask of Giants really the only magic item which expands shaping lists?

Recently I discovered the Mask of Giants, and a character idea has been nagging in the back of my mind ever since. So, I was wondering about two things. First off, what feats, archetypes, multi classes, domains etc. would people recommend for a Druid that focuses on:
1) Improving the wild shape class feature
2) Enchants wondrous items to improve personal skill in wild shape (either more shape options like the mask of giants or passive bonuses like beast totem pendant)
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, but I also had a second question, after finding the Mask of giants I did some research to find other items which expanded the wild shape options, but couldn’t find any. Does anybody know of other items which do this (I like the idea of a majora’s mask style loadout of shape shifting types) or any other good wild shape magical items.