Full Base Attack Rogue?

[jlord]

There is alot of talk about the rogue being the weakest class. I've seen alot of "fixes" proposed, but I have not seen something as simple as increasing the Rogue's BAB. I'm not so sure about how weak a rogue actually is in game, as I don't play them, but I was just wondering why this kind of fix is not as common as fixing sneak attack or altering the classes special abilities.

And for discussion's sake, anyone think a full base attack rogue would work, or would that be too much of a power boost?

[jackspeed]

would it work Yes. would it be too much of a power boost probably but classes don't need to be balanced in a cooperative setting. Since in pathfinder the hitdice and BAB is related it would also probably give them more hp. I see rouges as the class that does it all 8+int skill points finds and disables traps well. I feel that most people feel rouges are under powered is because they only look at combat. They can do very well if they flank with a fighter/ranger ect. The rouges with full base attack bonus would be very similar to fighters without armor training and weapon training. since they get a rouge talent 1ce per 2 lvls some of which can be combat feats and as a swashbuckler you can get 2 combat feats weapon focus and weapon finess as rouge powers then at lvl 10 they could get any feat.

[Fozbek]

It's too much of a power boost. Compare the damage increase from Sneak Attack to, say, smite evil or challenge. They get +1 damage per level; sneak attack gains almost twice that, 1.75 average per level. Fighters and barbarians get less than +1 per level but get higher to-hit rolls to make up for it.

Sneak Attack makes Rogues deal only slightly less damage than Fighters as things currently stand. If you boosted Rogues' BAB, they would dramatically out-damage Fighters. And, since damage is really all Fighters can do, that puts a serious hurt on the entire class. Same with Barbarians (although at least Barbs get 4 skill points and some non-combat powers) and Cavaliers.

[jackspeed]

I feel that I would be more likely to dip a rouge for 2 levels then play one. If I were a fighter I might take 2 levels of rouge to get a lot more class skills and more skill points and I wouldn't lose the extra feat also it would give evasion and a decent boost to reflex save as well as an extra 1d6 damage while flanking.

[DanMonster]

If you consider Rogues behind the curve when it comes to classes in Pathfinder, and you want to do something to help them out, giving them full base is the quickest and easiest way to do it.

Doing some calculations (using the math from the various DPR threads), even a rogue with full base is still behind a fighter on turns when it can sneak attack, however they are much closer, ~10 DPR less.

So overall, unless you want to sit down and write a bunch of Rogue Talents that are very good, giving them full base is the best way to shore up their overall attack weaknesses. If you consider their defenses are still going to be very weak, you have a kind of 'glass jawed' damage dealer, which works for me considering their skill points.

[TOZ]

I think the best compromise between the 'full BAB' camp and the 'no full BAB' camp is Trailblazer's 'Combat Tactics' feature.

Basically, rogues get a bonus to hit when their target is flatfooted or flanked. This bonus is equal to the difference between their BAB and level. This effectively gives them full BAB to hit, without the extra attacks or easier feat acquisition.

[kikidmonkey]

jlord wrote:

There is alot of talk about the rogue being the weakest class. I've seen alot of "fixes" proposed, but I have not seen something as simple as increasing the Rogue's BAB. I'm not so sure about how weak a rogue actually is in game, as I don't play them, but I was just wondering why this kind of fix is not as common as fixing sneak attack or altering the classes special abilities.

And for discussion's sake, anyone think a full base attack rogue would work, or would that be too much of a power boost?

In my opinion, combat isn't the reason why rogues are the weakest class.

To me, Rogues just don't really do anything that other classes can't do just as well, or better.

Bards get skills up the wazoo just like rogues

the other melee types take care of damage

In my opinion druids make better sneaks once they get wildshape (oh my god! There's a bear in my oatmeal!)

[Blue Star]

Simply put: no, combat isn't the only place the rogue is weak, it's noncombat is equally unimpressive. Yes it has a lot of skills, which are helpful, but a bard does both combat, and noncombat better.

[jackspeed]

@danmonster how do they do less damage with then a fighter with sneak attack turned on give me the fighter build and I could make a swashbuckler that does almost the same thing per round and deal more with sneak attack. the only difference in damage would be 2 at level 4 1 at 5 1 ab at 5 and then 1 of both ab and dmg at 9 and then 2 at 12 then 1 ab and dmg at 13. so a total of 7 damage and 3 ab. the rouge at 13 would get 7d6 sneak attack. As for total combat feats ( I am using a swash buckler so I don't have to blow a feat on weapon prof) the rouge gets 1 more combat feat If the fighter gets the weapon specs and greater weapon focus. so my math might be off but 3 ab should not give the fighter an extra 10 damage on the rouge when the rouge would deal 17.5(2.5 *7) more dmg on average per hit with sneak attack.

If we drop the swash buckler the rouge is down 1 feat. because it loses 1 combat trick and 1 for weapon proficiency.

@kikidmonkey rouges can find traps better than any other class rouges get more skill points then bards 2 extra. and the only skills they lose out to the bard on is the knowledge, spell craft. They are the only core class with disable device as a class skill.

[kikidmonkey]

Cleric gets Find Traps as a spell and are WIS based. That basically puts them on par with rogue once they get level 2 spells.
Mages can just summon critters and send them ahead.
Barbarian gets bonus saves against traps and have the HP to just suck it up.

Bards get versatile performance, using a performance check for two other skills, effectively granting them two extra skill points a level.

[The_Big_Dog]

The rogue really needs to gain skill dominance again. The change from 1/2 rank class skills really demolished the rogue in this regard. A 1/2 rogue level bonus on all rogue class skills, except knowledge skills, would go a long way. With that skill benefit, it would be acceptable for them to be worse at combat, as they are now.

[Blue Star]

The_Big_Dog wrote:

The rogue really needs to gain skill dominance again. The change from 1/2 rank class skills really demolished the rogue in this regard. A 1/2 rogue level bonus on all rogue class skills, except knowledge skills, would go a long way. With that skill benefit, it would be acceptable for them to be worse at combat, as they are now.

Or instead of nerfing everyone else, we could just make the rogue class better. I suggest additional benefits for the rogue with those skills, basically every 5 ranks in a skill that you can take 10 on, takes less time to take 10 on it, or if you can't take 10, you get a reroll.

Plus each skill can have an additional benefit later on down the road, but it would take me several hours to define those.

[leo1925]

To the OP:
Giving them full BAB is the quickest way (and more easy) to give rogues a powerboost but be aware that this isn't a "clean" way to do it, meaning that you could have implications along the way.

@Blue Star
Take 10 takes as much time as using the skill.

@jackspeed
I don't think that picking the swashbuckler archetype is a good choice, this archetype replaces trapfinding and you can find better archetypes that replace trapfinding.

As to rogues being better at finding traps:
First of all in PF anyone can find any trap but you need trapfinding in order to disable magical ones.
Here are the ways you can get trapfinding:
1) 1st level rogue (a bunch of archetypes give that up)
2) 3rd level urban ranger
3) 1st level trapper ranger
4) 1st level seeker oracle*
5) 1st level seeker sorcerer*
6) 1st level crypt breaker alchemist
7) 2nd level detective bard*
8) The 2nd level bard/alchemist/wizard spell Aram Zey's focus (too bad the duration is only 1 minute per level)
9) 2nd level archevist bard*
10) 6th level archeologist bard*
11) 1st level sandman bard*

*those 6 get trapfinding in everything but the name

And a few of the above choices also give you access to the trap spotter talent and/or the trap sense.
So as you can see, yes the rogue can be better at finding and disabling traps but only by a small amount and by that point i prefer to have someone with me who can disable traps a little worse and do a ton of other things, like you know fighting.

[Blueluck]

I'm annoyed that the best way to make a high-damage rogue in many cases is to pump STR. That's already the territory of many fighting classes, and doesn't lend itself to the flavor of the Rogue class. (I know some folks like to play "thug" rogues, but there's no reason a Ranger or Fighter can't knock people around and take their stuff. Just call yourself a thug or bandit and act appropriately.)

Here's what I would change:

• Give Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat to all Rogues at level 1.

• Change to Sneak Attack - A character with Sneak Attack may switch her attention from finding a vulnerable place on an enemy's anatomy to maximizing her own body mechanics and leverage into a blow. Forgo all precision damage, and instead deal 1 point of additional damage for each 1d6 of precision damage sacrificed. "Leveraged Strike" must be announced before the attack roll is made, and applies to all attacks during the Rogue's turn.

• A small improvement to the Bluff combat maneuver and the feats that enhance it.

• Include the conditions Flat Footed, Stunned, and Blinded in a few more good spells. Rogues are much better as team players, yet have difficulty "teaming" with spellcasters who never flank.

• Remove Use Magic Device from every skill list except Rogue and Bard, and abolish the trait Dangerously Curious[/].

• Small improvements to various Rogue Talents, to include adding the line "This talent may be taken more than once" to [i]Combat Trick. (This is for those who are more interested in combat than any other aspect of a Rogue.)

[karkon]

I have this house rule:

Rogues: Rogues receive one of these talents as a bonus at 1st: Trap Spotter, Combat Trick, or Minor Magic.

I basically give them an extra talent at 1st level to define their individual role better. I thought about full BAB for rogues too but ruled it out as defining the class in one way rather than the multiple ways it could go.

[Hayato Ken]

Seriously, did you ever consider that the rogue is not a single combatant?
If you play it right, the rogue is very good at what she is meant to do:
dealing sneak attack as surprise or flanking, dealing with traps, sneaking and scouting, stealing, face, whatever.

Don´t forget you only need to hit the flat-tooed AC when flanking or doing a sneak attack!

My GM for example regularly forgets this and needs to be reminded.

There are many options to make sure a rogue hits.
Just decide for a route, but forget about TWF.
ONe of the important points is cooperation in the group though and providing flank and cover. If there is a competition in the group who deals the most damage, then its b~$#!#&& of course.

-ranged:
look for enfilading fire if you have problems getting your sneak attack, this lets you flank from a distance. In combination with outflank surely great.

-melee:
1. you can take dodge, weapon finesse and offensive defense, who´s gonna hit you then? You can hit them easily with outflank and gang-up for getting a +4 bonus on flanking, even for ranged. Don´t forget from the hidden condition you get +2 to hit.
You can also take ninja trick vanish and ki pool, maybe talk to your GM and take invisible blade later.
Another possibility is to go the moonlight stalker route if you can get darkvision(By using the advanced race guide its possible to trade other abilites for darkvision or low-light vision). This gives you another +2 to hit if you have concealment (easily done with a wand of blur, having the wizrad cast blur on you or getting a minor cloak of displacement later, or of course when you are hidden).
2. Another nice way is to take the spring attack route. This way you can melee snipe and kite someone. Works great with Scout archetype.
3. Knife Master archetype has some great surprises in petto too. Combine with fitting talents and use surprise round.
4. Consider doing an STR build and using a reach weapon. Take gang-up and skewer them from behind your meatshields.
4. Consider using a whip or similar weapons and whirlwind attack. Take lunge. Sneak attack everyone in reach or trip or disarm them.

You see there are plenty of possibilites and the rogue can do real good.
Also with the archetypes you can dabble in other peoples business too.
I´m playing a ninja currently and with sap master, bludgeoner and a halfling slingstick i outdamage even the inquisitor.
Before i played a drow rogue and he did great too with shortswords and handcrossbows. Didn´t die a single time up to level 11.

The only changes i would suggest are not keyed to the rogue:

- abolish weapon finesse, key it to some weapons instead that can just be used with DEX or STR. Most times those weapons are light and do little damage anyway, reflecting the issue of penetrating armor and such.
- some other feat chains could be softened up, giving some more utility and maneuverability to feat starved classes.

[jackspeed]

@leo I was commenting that a swash buckler could be made as close to a fighter as is possibloe with a rouge with full BAB and would have the marshal weapon proficiency that a fighter would.

I would rather play a ninja or a scout with full BAB. A half elf with ancestral arms would have the same number of bonus combat feats at level 13, assuming that the rouge wanted weapon focus, and the fighter took the Gweapon focus and weapon specs. Wfoc at 2 combat trick at 6 and feat at 10 with advanced talent. now after 12 the rouge would not get any more feats.

I could give the fighters in my group a class ability at level 5 that would give them +100 to the first attack in a round. It would not increase there damage output by much after the buffs the rest of the party gives them(there chance to hit in my group is about 90% on the first attack). This is a cooperative game where people should play what they want to play and nothing more. I feel that giving the rouge full BAB is not a good way to balance the class but it shouldn't impact the game unless your group has a lot of min maxers.

[Cheapy]

Or, you know, since the rogue is a personality just get rid of the class. It's a bad idea to show newcomers that to play a personality you need to play a specific class.

[jackspeed]

@cheapy then why not get rid of the paliden as well because it is much more of a personality then a rouge. Why not just force the person to take levels in both a fighter and a cleric.

I like the rouge. I like the idea that you know where to hit to deal extra damage if the opponent is unaware. I like the defensive abilities that they get. To me they are a class that is a jack of all trades and a master of the night.

[TOZ]

jackspeed wrote:

a master of the night.

Not without darkvision they're not.

[Cheapy]

TOZ wrote:

jackspeed wrote:

a master of the night.

Not without darkvision they're not.

Even with it there are better "masters of the night".

[Falandar Thornarrow]

You called?

[Weables]

Quote:

Don´t forget you only need to hit the flat-tooed AC when flanking or doing a sneak attack!

Wrong. You hit normal AC when flanking. All flanking does for you to hit is give you the +2 (without any other feats/etc)

Quote:

1. you can take dodge, weapon finesse and offensive defense, who´s gonna hit you then?

Everyone. An extra 4-5 AC is nowhere near enough to be missed consistently for most characters.

Quote:

2. Another nice way is to take the spring attack route. This way you can melee snipe and kite someone. Works great with Scout archetype.

Doesnt work until level 8. Scout's charge doesnt work with spring attack. Even then, 1 attack a round is piss poor damage compared to the fighter or barb standing in there and full attacking. Not helpful in terms of increasing rogue damage.

Quote:

I´m playing a ninja currently and with sap master, bludgeoner and a halfling slingstick i outdamage even the inquisitor

this is not exactly evidence that rogues are fine, considering most people consider the ninja a fixed version of the rogue in terms of combat utility.

[Cheapy]

The reason you can't use vital strike in spring attack is because it's an attack action, right? That'd mean that Skirmisher wouldn't work with spring attack too.

Jackspeed: a paladin isn't a personality. It's an actual thing. The only other class that comes close to being a personality is a monk.

[karkon]

Weables wrote:

Quote:

Don´t forget you only need to hit the flat-tooed AC when flanking or doing a sneak attack!

Wrong. You hit normal AC when flanking. All flanking does for you to hit is give you the +2 (without any other feats/etc)

I think he meant when sneak attacking flat footed opponents. But the flanking part was wrong.

[Bobson]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Seriously, did you ever consider that the rogue is not a single combatant?

If you play it right, the rogue is very good at what she is meant to do:
dealing sneak attack as surprise or flanking, dealing with traps, sneaking and scouting, stealing, face, whatever.

Don´t forget you only need to hit the flat-tooed AC when flanking or doing a sneak attack!

My GM for example regularly forgets this and needs to be reminded.

Your GM is doing this right. You only need to hit the flat-footed AC when they're flat-footed. When you're just flanking, you need to hit their normal AC (but you get a flanking bonus).

[jackspeed]

@cheapy there is no other class (barring ninja which i think of as a rouge and that with full BAB may have problems) that gets any ability similar to the rouge. I think the d6 sneak attack should scale better then linearly. I would dislike having to make a ranger bard to get the skill monkey class.

I believe the rouge is necesary I dont believe either the ranger or the bard make better stealth assassins(not the prestige class). If you want dark vision there is goggles, a class shadow dancer, or the half orc(dwarf works as well but the move speed loss hurts).

There may be other ways you can do it but the class is designed to be a a shady guy. With full BAB you could build the rouge as a class that doesn't even use its dex.

[Cheapy]

It's rogue, mate :) Rouge is a color.

I would certainly hope that few other classes (other than Sandman bard) would get sneak attack. It's really not that good of an ability from a design point of view.

But a ranger doesn't need sneak attack to do lots of damage. They can sneak around just find, and they don't need to be magical. Just take Skirmisher archetype. Or trapper.

A bard can do just fine sneaking up on someone, and is a better skill monkey than a rogue thanks to Versatile Performance. 3 skills for the price of one? Nice. Oh, and 6 level of spells.

Or maybe an alchemist. They can get sneak attack too. And lots of skills. And their main class abilities are based off of Intelligence, so they'll have at least +3 to Int, meaning...9 skills per level, base.

Requiring items or very specific races just to do the baseline of what you feel the class should do means that the class is badly designed.

[TarkXT]

leo1925 wrote:

To the OP:

Giving them full BAB is the quickest way (and more easy) to give rogues a powerboost but be aware that this isn't a "clean" way to do it, meaning that you could have implications along the way.

@Blue Star
Take 10 takes as much time as using the skill.

@jackspeed
I don't think that picking the swashbuckler archetype is a good choice, this archetype replaces trapfinding and you can find better archetypes that replace trapfinding.

As to rogues being better at finding traps:
First of all in PF anyone can find any trap but you need trapfinding in order to disable magical ones.
Here are the ways you can get trapfinding:
1) 1st level rogue (a bunch of archetypes give that up)
2) 3rd level urban ranger
3) 1st level trapper ranger
4) 1st level seeker oracle*
5) 1st level seeker sorcerer*
6) 1st level crypt breaker alchemist
7) 2nd level detective bard*
8) The 2nd level bard/alchemist/wizard spell Aram Zey's focus (too bad the duration is only 1 minute per level)
9) 2nd level archevist bard*
10) 6th level archeologist bard*
11) 1st level sandman bard*

*those 6 get trapfinding in everything but the name

And a few of the above choices also give you access to the trap spotter talent and/or the trap sense.
So as you can see, yes the rogue can be better at finding and disabling traps but only by a small amount and by that point i prefer to have someone with me who can disable traps a little worse and do a ton of other things, like you know fighting.

You forgot to add Cryptbreaker alchemist to the list. Which is very much better at everything a rogue can do.

Fixing the rogue is not terribly difficult in my mind. Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Do as TOZ says and make the rogue bab like the monk bab. Except instead of getting a boost when flurrying it gets a boost when an opponent is flatfooted or flanked.

2. Make sneak attack a static number. This works wonders and allowing it to get increases from crits and such would help immensely. It's really only a question of scale. I think 2 damage at 1st, 3rd adn every other level after that wouldn't hurt.

3. Better rogue talents. Compared to thigns like Alchemist discoveries and rage powers rogue talents are severely lacking. Let them give more ways of getting sneak attacks, let them increase the utility they can get from magic items, alchemical items, or special tools. Rogues are supposed to be the tricky class that explores avenues that no one else does.

4. Make more ranged sneak attacks viable. The whole "30ft." thing is silly. No other class has to be in a limited range (except gunslingers but the benefit from that is immense compared to sneak attack) to take advantage of their abilities like that.

These are just some quick fixes off the top of my head.

[Gilfalas]

jlord wrote:

And for discussion's sake, anyone think a full base attack rogue would work, or would that be too much of a power boost?

Honestly I don't see them needing it. I have never seen a rogue be as useless as anyone on the boards claims, in OR out combat. I guess we just play with people who realise a rogue is best in a team situation.

I find the only people who think the rogue underpowered for the most part, are those who think it should be a martial powerhouse alone.

[TOZ]

I wonder if range increments for SA would work. Something like "every 30ft, your SA damage is reduced by one die". So you could be further away and still get some extra damage as you went up in level.

[TarkXT]

Gilfalas wrote:

I find the only people who think the rogue underpowered for the most part, are those who think it should be a martial powerhouse alone.

No. We just play with spell casters and rangers who can actually out fight and outsneak the rogue.

[TOZ]

And rogues who get eaten by the monsters.

[jackspeed]

I feel that dark vision should be a rouge talent, and an improved version should be a advanced rouge talent. I also feel that there should be an advanced rouge talent that allows a character crit with sneak attack. I would argue about the paladin but it might bring the thread off topic. I feel the ninja would be ridiculous with full BAB, that a fighter would get marginalized. I like the rouge. and usually "GM fixes" can do a lot in a game but may not break it if the players are not trying to.

I think giving the class full BAB is bad because then marshal classes may want a dip without a major penalty (which wouldn't really be helping the rouge). If I were to give rouge full BAB I would give them full +1 AB at 4 and every 4 there after.

[Cheapy]

Jackspeed, check out this product. It might be something up your alley :)

[Gilfalas]

TarkXT wrote:

No. We just play with spell casters and rangers who can actually out fight and outsneak the rogue.

I can easily see how the ranger can be the equal or even beat the rogue in stealth if they are made similarly. After all they both have Stealth class skills and both are often dex primary characters (since so many love the ranger archer concept).

Of course stealth is only one tiny, tiny part of the rogues abilities. And rangers are supposed to outfight a rogue in a stand up fight face to face, they are a primary fighter style class.

Obviously peoples play styles differe but if stealth and damage are the only thing that Rogues bring to your game, then yes, you probbaly don't need them, since rogues can do a hell of a lot more.

But if that 'more' is not needed in the games you run then neither will the rogue.

[The_Big_Dog]

Blue Star wrote:

The_Big_Dog wrote:

The rogue really needs to gain skill dominance again. The change from 1/2 rank class skills really demolished the rogue in this regard. A 1/2 rogue level bonus on all rogue class skills, except knowledge skills, would go a long way. With that skill benefit, it would be acceptable for them to be worse at combat, as they are now.

Or instead of nerfing everyone else, we could just make the rogue class better. I suggest additional benefits for the rogue with those skills, basically every 5 ranks in a skill that you can take 10 on, takes less time to take 10 on it, or if you can't take 10, you get a reroll.

Plus each skill can have an additional benefit later on down the road, but it would take me several hours to define those.

You aren't nerfing everyone else. Before the Pathfinder changes, the rogue had a large advantage in skill use over everyone but the bard. Now, the rogue has the meh class skill bonus over other classes. This is not enough to keep him in the position of master of skills. Intelligence based casters can nearly match rogues in skill points, since the rogues cannot afford to put focus on int and still be combat viable.

Give rogues a 1/2 level bonus on all class skills. They need it especially in the stealth skill, since all classes get full ranks in perception now.

[TarkXT]

Gilfalas wrote:

[

Obviously peoples play styles differe but if stealth and damage are the only thing that Rogues bring to your game, then yes, you probbaly don't need them, since rogues can do a hell of a lot more.

Then explain them rather then talk about promises of paradise. Enlighten us.

[Cheapy]

I believe Tark wishes to be enlightened in the ways that a rogue can do something that a bard, ranger, and alchemist can't do nearly as well or better.

[VM mercenario]

Gilfalas wrote:

TarkXT wrote:

No. We just play with spell casters and rangers who can actually out fight and outsneak the rogue.

I can easily see how the ranger can be the equal or even beat the rogue in stealth if they are made similarly. After all they both have Stealth class skills and both are often dex primary characters (since so many love the ranger archer concept).

Of course stealth is only one tiny, tiny part of the rogues abilities. And rangers are supposed to outfight a rogue in a stand up fight face to face, they are a primary fighter style class.

Obviously peoples play styles differe but if stealth and damage are the only thing that Rogues bring to your game, then yes, you probbaly don't need them, since rogues can do a hell of a lot more.

But if that 'more' is not needed in the games you run then neither will the rogue.

What 'more' are you talking about? It isn't skills in general, because bards and wizards can easily outskill a rogue. It can't be one skill in particular because any skill you choose there is at least two classes that can excel at it and be even better than the rogue, unless you sink a lot of feats and talents on it.

So it's not stealth, skills, fighting or magic. What is left?

[leo1925]

@TarkXT

**cough** number 6 **cough**

@Gilfalas

I have seen a rogue played through 16 levels, it was during Kingmaker (we played it pre UM), well first i must say that we all had god stats (rolled) and that really helped the rogue, now i wouldn't go as far as call him useless but i can surely say that he wasn't much either, he wasn't much in combat when compared to my ranger and the summoner (and later the magus who took the place of the summoner), he wasn't much in sneaking around when compared to my ranger (favored terrain, camouflage and later hide in plain sight) and not much compared to the magus (invisibility plus an equal-ish amount of skill points), he wasn't better face than the summoner (but was a better face than the magus) but he was a better face than my ranger because my ranger didn't want to go the diplomacy route (being a general and all) even then he couldn't very much match my ranger when it came into intimidate and sense motive against humans (my ranger's focus).

Surely if the rogue was played after UC it would surely be better at combat and sneaking (agile weapon and knife master archetype for combat and eldritch heritage (shadow) for sneaking around).
So bottom line from my experience is: not sucking/useless but also nothing to be excited about.

[TarkXT]

leo1925 wrote:

@TarkXT

**cough** number 6 **cough**

You see. I can't find my glasses this morning and its really coming to irritate me.

[Kalyth]

My fixes for the Rogue

1) Add a rogue talent at 1st level.

2) Every level a rogue does not get a rogue talent he gets Skill Focus in one skill.

3) At a rogue talent that grants a bonus to hit when an attack would qualify for as a sneak attack.

4) Add a rouge talent that allows the rogue to fient as a move action or a swift action if the rogue can aleady fient as a move action.

5) 5th: Improved Defensive Fighting: +1 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively. This bonus increases to +2 when using the Total Defense action.

Would rework all advanced rogue to increase their effective ness. The rogue in gaining these at levels where wizards are getting Teleport and Bards are getting Dominate Person, Clerics are getting Heal, etc... These talents need to be near as potent as some of these spells.

[Fozbek]

leo1925 wrote:

So bottom line from my experience is: not sucking/useless but also nothing to be excited about.

This. Rogues don't suck and aren't useless, but they also don't really provide anything unique to the party. They're nice to have around, but have nothing that you really need.

The way to solve that isn't to give them full BAB. That would make them better, but it still wouldn't give them anything special. It would just increase their damage output past that of the current full BAB classes, which are all already overpowered to hear some people talk.

[Nipin]

I like the idea of increasing the Rogue's BaB while using sneak attack (as a class feature added at 1st level). I would also suggest adding two rogue talents. One basic talent which gives Improved Feint without needing combat expertise and an advanced talent which allows the rogue to feint as a swift action. The advanced talent would require the rogue to have the Improved Feint talent.

[kikidmonkey]

now the ninja on the other hand, is awesome.

[jackspeed]

Some other thoughts I have about these threads about adding stuff to a class doesn't work. It may make a class better and most likely won't break the game. giving rouges full BAB does not help because paizo isn't going to release an erata saying sorry we feel the rouge should now have full BAB. Paizo could add different talents or alt class abilities that do something similar for the case of rouges. I like having the discussion but no class alt classes have had the BAB changed. And I have trouble seeing paizo add BAB to a class I could see them subtracting it for something cool ex(a cleric with low BAB d6 HD and something similar to a "bloodline" in the "Supreme magic").

@kikidmonkey imagine a ninja with full BAB as the OP is suggesting

@OP why not just give the ninja trapfinding they are what many would call a "fixed rouge"

[kikidmonkey]

not needed, that isn't something I think is wrong with the ninja. With stuff like vanishing trick, the ninja should have no problem hitting an opponent.

[Blue Star]

leo1925 wrote:

@Blue Star

Take 10 takes as much time as using the skill.

I know, but the general point of me saying that is that the rogue can use those skills faster, in general, not just when taking 10. Though I admit I did forget to add that part. Making feint become a free action after awhile helps the rogue in combat as well.

[leo1925]

TarkXT wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

@TarkXT

**cough** number 6 **cough**

You see. I can't find my glasses this morning and its really coming to irritate me.

I can understand you....

Blue Star wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

@Blue Star

Take 10 takes as much time as using the skill.

I know, but the general point of me saying that is that the rogue can use those skills faster, in general, not just when taking 10. Though I admit I did forget to add that part.

Ah ok, that makes sense.